Saving versus Sanctifying Grace?

[Kim G]

Yesterday my pastor preached on Deuteronomy 8. During our SS hour afterward (in which he answers questions about the message), he made some references to God's grace that confused me.

Here's what he basically said:

God provides saving grace. It is all of grace that we are justified.

However, sanctifying grace is of works. We must have the desire to be sanctified and keep God's commandments, we must work out our salvation, and if we take all the right steps, God gives us the grace to be sanctified.

If a Christian does not want to be sanctified, he doesn't have to be. God will leave him alone and not help him. God will treat that child like he's an unbeliever and will not extend grace to him until he desires to be sanctified.

????Where is this coming from?

What came to mind was Galatians 3, which calls men "foolish" who think they can be saved by the Spirit but perfected in the flesh. Also Ephesians 2, which says that though we work out our salvation, God works both the will-ing and the do-ing of His pleasure. We don't have to "work up" some good desires in us--God works them in us.

Am I seeing this incorrectly? Any thoughts or advice regarding these statements?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Am I seeing this incorrectly? Any thoughts or advice regarding these statements?

I think both you and your pastor are seeing things correctly, though he is emphasizing man's responsibility and you're emphasizing the work of the Holy Spirit. WCF XVI.3 sums it up pretty well:

Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces that they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit to work in them to will, and to do, of His good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.

There are quite a few proof texts, the key being John 15:4-6, Philippians 2:12-13, II Peter 1:3,5,10-11.

 

[Kim G]

I think both you and your pastor are seeing things correctly, though he is emphasizing man's responsibility and you're emphasizing the work of the Holy Spirit.

That may be. But what bothered me was this:

1) He was very adamant that sanctification STARTS with us. We have to work it in ourselves. We have to desire it. (Not, we SHOULD desire it, but we MUST work it in ourselves to get any grace at all.) We are being "saved" by works, not faith.

2) He specifically stated that someone can be a Christian and want nothing to do with sanctification, and God will withhold His grace from them and treat them just like an unbeliever. Does God treat His children like unbelievers? Does He leave us to our own devices? I thought that God chastens His children who do not follow Him. Lack of chastening (i.e., being left alone like an unbeliever) would indicate lack of saving grace in the first place, right?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

1. Sancitification is of the Holy Spirit - if he says it is purely of the flesh he is wrong.

2. What he's saying is an impossibility. Any regenerate believer will desire sanctification on some level. If he does not desire sanctification, God will treat him like an unbeliever because he is an unbeliever! So yes, a lack of desire for sanctification indicates a lack of saving faith to begin with.

 

[queenknitter]

Kim,

That idea is very, very popular in our neck of the woods. I'm not surprised that your pastor preaches that. It's no different than the "How Do We Get Grace" variety of preaching we heard "on campus." :/

C

 

[Scott1]

I know there are theological distinctions to be made here and I'm not clearly understanding what you are being taught.

In trying to understand and apply this as a rule of life, start with the definition of "grace." "Grace" is God's unmerited favor. It applies to salvation and it applies to other aspects of life also.

Salvation is by "grace" alone- 100% a work of God that only He can do.

Sanctification, if I understand it correctly, is a cooperative effort. God certainly provides "grace" but we also make our own choices (sometimes described as "secondary causes" to acknowledge God's overarching providence) but they are our choices in a very real sense.

The Reformers summarized the doctrine of Scripture to say that we are commanded to avail ourselves of the "ordinary means of Grace" (Word, prayer, and the sacraments) to strengthen our faith. This is sanctification. This is why personal, family and corporate worship are so important- they are the ordinary ways God provides the "ordinary means of Grace" for His people.

In a sense, Christians "prove out their salvation" by their works. They don't cause it, but the miraculous change of nature God alone does in the Christian inevitably results in change on the outside. Ordinarily, over time one can see the change "proved out" in the life of one who has been truly converted (by God alone). This is why church discipline is important- to help clarify this with the person involved, for the church watching, and for outsiders.

Remember also that the Bible speaks of gaining rewards and suffering loss in heaven based on what we did on earth. This is not for salvation- nothing could even possibly result in that except Christ's righteousness alone. While the Bible doesn't give us many specifics of the rewards and loss, it is biblical to view our sanctification with that in mind and use the "free will" we are given by God to further it.

 

[queenknitter]

Scott --

What's being taught here is NOT the standard Reformed "We work because God works." What's being said is the usual Keswick/Dispensationalist/Holiness idea that "You do your part and only then God'll respond."

The clearest exemplar of this idea is stated in this sermon: SermonAudio.com - Getting Grace from God

I blogged about that here as well (with some transcriptions of the sermon itself).

C

 

[Kim G]

In a sense, Christians "prove out their salvation" by their works. They don't cause it, but the miraculous change of nature God alone does in the Christian inevitably results in change on the outside.

Yes. I agree. That is why I was so confused. What can we do to merit "God's unmerited favor"? I would say nothing. My pastor would pull out a list of things.

Obviously, I don't believe in sitting on my couch until God's grace pulls me off and kicks me into doing good works. But God's Spirit inside of me will "inevitably" result in changing me.

What's being taught here is NOT the standard Reformed "We work because God works." What's being said is the usual Keswick/Dispensationalist/Holiness idea that "You do your part and only then God'll respond."

The clearest exemplar of this idea is stated in this sermon: SermonAudio.com - Getting Grace from God

I blogged about that here as well (with some transcriptions of the sermon itself).

I know. I read your blog every day. When I heard this from my pastor, I was in a state of shock and immediately remembered what you've been blogging about recently.

 

[Scott1]

Since this is important to understand, I would find out if the church holds to a confession or statement of faith that addresses this. This might help clarify if this teaching is in line with that or an exception to it. If there is no confession or statement of faith, it may be only the leadership's belief at this point in time and it would be prudent to clarify this with the church leader (maybe ask detailed questions during the "question time"). I think the Ninth commandment would presume we give him the benefit of the doubt now, be charitable, but gain more information.

By the way, I like the idea of a "question time" after the service!

 

[queenknitter]

I'll be praying for you, Kim. It's tough. We left a year ago yesterday. It's been good because God is good. But that doesn't mean it's easy.

May God give you the discernment, the words, the opportunities, and the courage!

C

 

[moral necessity]

Yesterday my pastor preached on Deuteronomy 8. During our SS hour afterward (in which he answers questions about the message), he made some references to God's grace that confused me.

Here's what he basically said:

God provides saving grace. It is all of grace that we are justified.

However, sanctifying grace is of works. We must have the desire to be sanctified and keep God's commandments, we must work out our salvation, and if we take all the right steps, God gives us the grace to be sanctified.

If a Christian does not want to be sanctified, he doesn't have to be. God will leave him alone and not help him. God will treat that child like he's an unbeliever and will not extend grace to him until he desires to be sanctified.

????Where is this coming from?

What came to mind was Galatians 3, which calls men "foolish" who think they can be saved by the Spirit but perfected in the flesh. Also Ephesians 2, which says that though we work out our salvation, God works both the will-ing and the do-ing of His pleasure. We don't have to "work up" some good desires in us--God works them in us.

Am I seeing this incorrectly? Any thoughts or advice regarding these statements?

I'm with you on this, Kim. My former pastor emphasized this in the same way. It was frustrating to me. I called it a Calvinistic justification, with an Arminian sanctification. in my opinion, it leads down the wrong path. I understand why they tend to emphasize things in this way, for they are mainly striving to eliminate us from being passive in sanctification, and just sitting back and waiting on God and not lifting a finger. But, the danger to me was that I didn't end up depending on God enough. My prayer life was poor, and I looked for my strength from within rather than from without. I find God often uses these "sanctification strategies" to get us to the end of our ropes with our efforts, until we finally crash and turn the whole project over to him. He wants the glory in sanctification, and when we acknowledge and honor his responsibility for that work in us is when we're on the right track.

I found it best to understand the dynamic of sanctification with the illustration of 2 dominoes. He pushes the first and it falls into and moves the second. There are first causes and there are second causes. He is the first and we are the second. But, the one is dependent on the other, and ours is never independent apart from his. And so, we become active because he activates us. He causes us to cause. He does not violate the will within us, but he does change our affections so that our will is now moved in a different direction. This keeps all the glory of sanctification where it ought to be........with God.

Hang in there, and be gentle in your dealings with him, as he is beloved by Christ as well.

Blessings and prayers!

 

[jwithnell]

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility must be held in very careful balance in both justification and sanctification. Man is fully responsible for his rebellion against God just as God is fully sovereign in bringing that man to saving faith (justification). God is fully sovereign in our sanctification just as we are fully responsible to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling ..." and to "run the good race."

I do not believe it is possible for a person to be justified without showing signs of sanctification -- the Bible is clear that we are known by our fruits.

Also, some of the errors in "New Perspectives" comes from dividing justification and sanctification and by not holding the balances mentioned above. In fact, error in many camps comes from these unbalances. Take, for example, the liberal and neo-orthodox churches that gloss over the need for justification and move on the do-goodisms (usually social activism) of a gospel-less sanctification. Or, in the other extreme, churches that teach how-to-be-saved week after week, but never press their congregations on to maturity and the meat of the scriptures.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Sanctification, if I understand it correctly, is a cooperative effort. God certainly provides "grace" but we also make our own choices (sometimes described as "secondary causes" to acknowledge God's overarching providence) but they are our choices in a very real sense.

The Reformers summarized the doctrine of Scripture to say that we are commanded to avail ourselves of the "ordinary means of Grace" (Word, prayer, and the sacraments) to strengthen our faith. This is sanctification. This is why personal, family and corporate worship are so important- they are the ordinary ways God provides the "ordinary means of Grace" for His people.

I agree with the second paragraph that worship, sacraments, and certain Christian practices are important for sanctification, and are the instruments God uses to santfity us. And I agree with part of the first paragraph that we make our own choices. However, I would say that the only reason we make those choices is because of a supernatural transformation of our heart by the Holy Spirit. I'm not disagreeing with you really, just saying that the only way we make the choice to do those practical things that sanctify us is through a regenerated heart.

 

[a mere housewife]

How could we desire to be sanctified unless we had received grace to do so? The desire is from grace, because God has changed us and is renewing our wills. Certainly they're our wills and we use them, but we have Him to thank for our new inclinations, and not ourselves. If we have no new inclinations, then we aren't new creatures. Even as new creatures, we're left in a pretty hopeless situation if we have to work for grace. Rather grace makes us work.

Truly I would be a basket case under such preaching. I am already inclined to be a practical Romanist by nature. This sort of thing would have me living in constant guilt, trying to attain in my own inadequate strength what apparently Christ could not (or would not) attain for me.

 

[moral necessity]

Truly I would be a basket case under such preaching. I am already inclined to be a practical Romanist by nature. This sort of thing would have me living in constant guilt, trying to attain in my own inadequate strength what apparently Christ could not (or would not) attain for me.

As I certainly was!!!

Blessings!

 

[JBaldwin]

Kim,

That idea is very, very popular in our neck of the woods. I'm not surprised that your pastor preaches that. It's no different than the "How Do We Get Grace" variety of preaching we heard "on campus." :/

C

Kim,

This is very popular in our neck of the woods. It is because of the BJU influence in the community. It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"

 

[JBaldwin]

By the way, Kim, if you ever get a notion to come out our way to hear a good message on the grace of God, we'd love to have you. I know our church is too far to drive on a regular basis, but the preaching is refreshing.

Yesterday, the sermon was on the grace of God, and the pastor reminded of us that without God's grace, we can do nothing, not even accomplish our sanctification.

This discussion makes me think of Phil. 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (ESV) It seems to me that this verse indicates that what God starts in a person's life, He will complete.

 

[wsw201]

This sounds like the old Lordship Salvation issue from a while back, or the idea of the carnel christian, ie; the Bill Bright/Campus Crusade view. Either way, what he is saying is not the Reformed view.

 

[Ivan]

Good thread.

 

[queenknitter]

It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"

Well. . . . how far? Seriously. I'm honestly asking. Sigh. . . .

My husband and I risked everything professionally to stand up against this stuff. God planned it all, I know. That's so clear.

Sigh. . . . So? How far?

C

 

[py3ak]

Sanctification is also by grace. Hosea 14 sets that out. The best book on the subject is Walter Marshall, The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification. If at all possible, I would recommend that you give this book to your pastor (and of course read it yourself).

 

[JBaldwin]

It has poisoned nearly every PCA session in the presbytery, and it is common in other reformed churches. It is the theology taught by all the fundamental Baptists in the area. One of my family members put it to me this way, "How far do you have to get from BJU before you can get away from the stench [of works sanctification]?"

Well. . . . how far? Seriously. I'm honestly asking. Sigh. . . .

My husband and I risked everything professionally to stand up against this stuff. God planned it all, I know. That's so clear.

Sigh. . . . So? How far?

C

I really don't know how far, but be encouraged there are many out there who have not bowed their knees to this theology. You are much closer to it than I am. By the way, it might be fun sometime for you, Kim and I to meet for lunch somewhere. I'm in the Greenville area nearly every week. It's great to have Christian sisters so close by.

 

[queenknitter]

I would love that! The closer to a playground, the better!!

C

 

[Scott1]

Westminster confession of faith

chapter xvi
of good works
i. Good works are only such as god has commanded in his holy word,[1] and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.[2]

ii. These good works, done in obedience to god's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith:[3] and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,[4] strengthen their assurance,[5] edify their brethren,[6] adorn the profession of the gospel,[7] stop the mouths of the adversaries,[8] and glorify god,[9] whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,[10] that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.[11]

iii. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the spirit of Christ.[12] and that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same holy spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of his good pleasure:[13] yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of god that is in them.[14]

iv. They who, in their obedience, attain to the greatest height which is possibly in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than god requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.[15]

v. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of god, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and god, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins,[16] but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants:[17] and because, as they are good, they proceed from his spirit,[18] and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of god's judgment.[19]

vi. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him;[20] not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreproveable in god's sight;[21] but that he, looking upon them in his son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.[22]

vii. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which god commands; and of good use both to themselves and others:[23] yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith;[24] nor are done in a right manner, according to the word;[25] nor to a right end, the glory of god,[26] they are therefore sinful and cannot please god, or make a man meet to receive grace from god:[27] and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto god.[28]

 

[turmeric]

What's BJU? This sounds like some sort of Keswick stuff, but it's hard to imagine that taking root in the PCA.

 

[jwithnell]

BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.

 

[queenknitter]

BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.

BJU = Bob Jones University. The founder was Methodist, but it has since gravitated to a dispie, indy, fundy Baptist market.

C

 

[Josh G]

BJU = Bob Jones University? Not mentioned very often in reformed circles. If it has a denominational tie, my guess would be independent baptist.

You mean you have never heard of BJU? They say that they are non-denominational, but independent baptist sums it up.

They are like the buckle of the "Bible Belt."

 

[TaylorOtwell]

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (Psalm 110:3)

The Lord gives us a new heart; therefore, we are willing to obey His commandments. The Lord works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (from Phil 2:13)

 

[moral necessity]

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (Psalm 110:3)

The Lord gives us a new heart; therefore, we are willing to obey His commandments. The Lord works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (from Phil 2:13)

Excellent verses, Taylor. My thoughts exactly!