Kim G
Puritan Board Junior
That's very sweet. I'd enjoy it very much. I'd just have to plan in advance since I'd have to take a longer lunch break from work.
Saving versus Sanctifying Grace?
- Thread starter Kim G
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That's very sweet. I'd enjoy it very much. I'd just have to plan in advance since I'd have to take a longer lunch break from work.
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
You inspired me to order this tonight, Reuben! I look forward to reading it. Thank you, brother!
Blessings!
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
As was mentioned, Greenville SC is a hot bed for both fundamentalism and Keswick teaching. I attended BJU for a number of years and graduated from a Keswick/Deeper life teaching Bible Institute which is also in Greenville, SC. Many graduates of these schools tend to stick around and join local churches. They are everywhere, and a lot of them have found their way into the local PCA churches. It's sad, but that's the reality of it.
Lot of people want sanctification. That's a good thing. People who are serious about religion want to know: "How can I be ethical?" But its usually some form of "what do I have to DO," and not (as it ought to be), "what do I need to BELIEVE?"
I can look at WHAT you do, and come pretty close to being able to tell you what you believe. Don't boast to me about what you believe, show it to me (James 2:18). The irony is, that DOING in order to SHOW OFF (to man? to God?) what you believe will inevitably show how little you believe in the power of God.
Romans 7:9-24 will teach you the frustration that comes when someone says: "OK! Great, now that I am justified, I can finally keep the law, and be God-pleasing!"
The law can't justify, or bring you to the point where God will justify you. Neither can the law sanctify, or bring you to the point where God will give you more grace for more sanctification. "Make the most of what you have" theology is a terrible heartbreaker.
I can look at WHAT you do, and come pretty close to being able to tell you what you believe. Don't boast to me about what you believe, show it to me (James 2:18). The irony is, that DOING in order to SHOW OFF (to man? to God?) what you believe will inevitably show how little you believe in the power of God.
Romans 7:9-24 will teach you the frustration that comes when someone says: "OK! Great, now that I am justified, I can finally keep the law, and be God-pleasing!"
The law can't justify, or bring you to the point where God will justify you. Neither can the law sanctify, or bring you to the point where God will give you more grace for more sanctification. "Make the most of what you have" theology is a terrible heartbreaker.
Kim G,
I think your summary of what he taught would cause me to ask your Pastor this question:
[KJV]Galatians 3:1-3[/KJV]: 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
If this is what he is teaching, I suggest you find a Church that understands that the Gospel is clearly understood by our view of justification and sanctification.
I do not want to minimize our responsibility to strive toward the holy ends we have been set upright for but to state that God gives us grace but that our sanctification ultimately rests on our desire is complete bunk.
I think your summary of what he taught would cause me to ask your Pastor this question:
[KJV]Galatians 3:1-3[/KJV]: 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
If this is what he is teaching, I suggest you find a Church that understands that the Gospel is clearly understood by our view of justification and sanctification.
I do not want to minimize our responsibility to strive toward the holy ends we have been set upright for but to state that God gives us grace but that our sanctification ultimately rests on our desire is complete bunk.
regenerated
Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Kim G,
A typical arminian approach to the subject of sanctification.
I would ignore it and concentrate on the reformed understanding of sanctification.
cheers
A typical arminian approach to the subject of sanctification.
I would ignore it and concentrate on the reformed understanding of sanctification.
cheers
Kim G
Puritan Board Junior
I did ask my pastor that very question. I read him those specific verses. And he said what queenknitter always said would happen--he said that Galatians is talking about specific Judiazers in Galatia, and that the situation doesn't apply to us.
Thank you for the advice. My husband and I are very new at all of this. We don't want to have a "knee-jerk" reaction by jumping out of one church and into another without having solidified what we believe and what kind of church we ought to attend. Not to mention, we love our church family and the thoughtfulness that our pastor usually exhibits. (And and my hubbie still has another semester at Bob Jones University before we can leave.)
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
You're right. As I read the Ninth Commandment questions in the Westminster Larger Catechism, it says we generally first owe giving people the benefit of the doubt, trying to see the best and be charitable, particularly toward those in the household in faith. This is another high aspect of God's law we cannot possibly keep but only try by God's grace. But it means we are careful, and charitable generally, even in assessing doctrine. We all have a tendency, in our fallen nature, to find instant fault, even in small detail, leave a church, slander the believers there, and then repeat the pattern. There are many who, in doing this, never really submit to the Body of Christ nor fully participate in it.
One of the things I have found to be of great benefit are Confessions and (substantive)Statements of Faith. They provide a basis for unity and can further the peace and purity of the church. If the church holds to one of the historic confessions, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Baptist Confession of Faith, one has an idea of what they officially believe, at least, regarding major doctrine.
Without a Confession of Faith or substantive statement of faith, the teaching and beliefs tend to fall back on what the denominational leader or local leader believes at that time. This can change as the leader either grows in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, goes off on wrong doctrine, or apostasizes. Because the church is so centered on the person of the leader, with no clear doctrine memorialized, it can benefit but it can also harm a lot of people.
Having a Confession is not intended to cover every doctrine but something as significant as sanctification needs to be defined- for the peace and purity of the church.
Kim G
Puritan Board Junior
My husband found a copy of our church's constitution, which includes a statement of faith. I have bolded the section on sanctification. This is a complete contradiction to what the pastor very explicitly stated on Sunday (even after being questioned).
CBC Statement of Faith said:
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Is this a fair summary of sanctification?
Would it be fair to say the reason the law cannot justify us is that we cannot possibly keep it?
Would it be fair to say Romans 7:9-24 speaks of someone who misunderstands his ability- he cannot possibly perfectly keep the law, which Jesus expanded upon particularly in the Sermon on the Mount, to say that it applies broadly in thought, word, and deed and that we violate it all the time in these ways.
Jesus alone could perfectly keep the law, that's why our faith must be directed toward Him because there is no other basis for justification other than Christ's perfect righteousness alone.
Our sanctification is a process of "getting better at it" (keeping God's law) realizing that we are dependent on God througout the process and we will never fully attain it in this life. Yet we are exhorted, indeed are commanded to move toward that end and are responsible to God for trying to do so. In part, the visible church holds us accountable toward that end.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Maybe Reverend Buchanan and some others can comment on the Statement of Faith.
The sanctification section (and the preservation) statements while minimal, look biblical.
The Separation section may be more indicative of what is going on here.
"Separation" (separatism) is related to Sanctification. This is more difficult for me to understand clearly because there is certainly some truth in separating from sin, the world system, but it's not the whole story.
Fundamentalism tends toward "separatism" while Reformed theology tends toward "transformation" of peoples, cultures and institutions. Reformed theology leans more toward transformation also because of eschatological views, that is that Christ is actually redeeming culture, too. "Transformational" is appealing, but hard to live out.
The sanctification section (and the preservation) statements while minimal, look biblical.
The Separation section may be more indicative of what is going on here.
"Separation" (separatism) is related to Sanctification. This is more difficult for me to understand clearly because there is certainly some truth in separating from sin, the world system, but it's not the whole story.
Fundamentalism tends toward "separatism" while Reformed theology tends toward "transformation" of peoples, cultures and institutions. Reformed theology leans more toward transformation also because of eschatological views, that is that Christ is actually redeeming culture, too. "Transformational" is appealing, but hard to live out.
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Galatians very much applies to anyone who would add to the Gospel - whether of the Judaizing variety or a different sort. Very alarming that a person would feel immune to this danger. Paul was writing to Gentiles when he asked them that question.
I agree with your sentiment not to be knee-jerk. I didn't intend by my comments that you ought to jump ship next weekend. I am simply concerned that this pattern of the Gospel is being taught. I have only your report of what was taught to go by. I realize it is a second-hand report so I want to be careful, which is why I stated that, based on your summary of what he taught, it would not be a place I would likely stay at for very long if the Pastor had this idea of sanctification fully ensconced. It is another Gospel.
queenknitter
Puritan Board Freshman
My husband and I made this church sign at churchsigngenerator.com to memorialize that identical response we got from current BJU president, Stephen Jones.
The statements are unobjectionable in themselves. The prooftexts focus on the WORK of God, regarding sanctification. And the last 3 'preservation' texts speak of living righteously. Nothing there about how they confess God works to grow us in grace.
Bottom line, if you start off with a synergistic understanding of salvation, you will end up with synergism everywhere.
queenknitter
Puritan Board Freshman
It's reassuring to me to hear you say it that clearly. I know this is Kim's thread, but she's facing the same exact thing that my husband and I faced at year ago in the exact same place. And sometimes when you're in the middle of it, and you've got out your Bible and your Berkhof, and you hear it you think, "That's not right! . . . Or am I crazy?" And everyone says that you're crazy -- everyone! But you go back to Scripture. . . .
That's one of the things I find such a relief in the Presbyterian churches I've visited. The Gospel is just stated as clear as day.
C
It's ironic that that's the reply, "well, that was specific to Galatians and doesn't apply to us." So egalitarians, "Well, that was specific to Corinth and doesn't apply to us." So, to a fundamentalist, why does the remark, "Well, separation was specific to the situation in Rome and doesn't apply to us" not quite cut it? How long do we have to wait before some interested crowd starts saying, "Well, discipline for incest was peculiar to Corinth and doesn't apply to us"?
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queenknitter
Puritan Board Freshman
Help me out here. In this part of Christendom -- Kim's and my former part -- this passage is one of the KEY passages used to prove that you've gotta work, work, work to earn sanctifying grace. In fact, a book just came out a few weeks ago about that very passage. And I can't shake that fundy interpretation of that passage.
I don't know if I'm even making my question clear here. At the very least, can you all point me to a Reformed article or understanding of the passage so I can clear my head?
Thanks.
C
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I think the key is verse 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence,
It says that all things that pertain to life and godliness are granted by God. To me that pretty much sums it up. It is also "through the knowledge of Him who called us." I haven't done a study on the word "knowledge", but I would be willing to guess that it has something to do with experiential knowledge and not head knowledge. Living godly is all about knowing Christ.
My
It says that all things that pertain to life and godliness are granted by God. To me that pretty much sums it up. It is also "through the knowledge of Him who called us." I haven't done a study on the word "knowledge", but I would be willing to guess that it has something to do with experiential knowledge and not head knowledge. Living godly is all about knowing Christ.
My
Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
I recommend the following work concerning this subject:
"The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification" by Walter Marshall This is a classic work which provides the Biblical basis for understanding sanctification to be a monergistic work of the Lord in our lives.
It can be purchased here: Reformation Heritage Books
"The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification" by Walter Marshall This is a classic work which provides the Biblical basis for understanding sanctification to be a monergistic work of the Lord in our lives.
It can be purchased here: Reformation Heritage Books
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
It's also online here:
queenknitter
Puritan Board Freshman
Heeeey! Thanks! I had just put Marshall's book on my Wishlist per someone's earlier recommendation on this thread. But free and immediate is even better!! THANKS!!!
C
C
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
I had problems escaping the fundamentalist perspective on this passage as well until more recently. Their approach said that God has given you all of the tools, and now you must go and use them to work out your sanctification. There was no more grace needed to be sought after any longer for it. No prayer really necessary. Just get up and start doing, they would say. And, if you don't, then you are bringing doubt as to your calling and election. But, the passage is not saying that at all. I think it's saying the exact opposite, that the reason one does not have these qualities added much into their lives is because they doubt their forgiveness, and that they have left the cross (verse 9).
in my opinion, as said above, everything we need for life and godliness is granted to us, but it is throught the knowledge of him. So, how are we to better know him? Well, we need to try to not steer ourselves away from Christ and the cross in the first place. These qualities that we strive to add to our faith in the work of Christ, as verse 8 says, tend to keep us from doing so, from being ineffectual in our knowing of Christ, and keep us from being unfruitful in that knowing of Christ. Behavior and thoughts that are opposite tend to divert us from Christ and the cross, and make us ineffectual in knowing him more fully. Verse 9 adds that, if these qualities are lacking, the reason is not necessarily because one is not a Christian, but because one who is has forgotten that he already is one, because he has been diverted from the cross. Their eyes have been turned from the reality of their justification and right standing with God (that they have already been cleansed from their former sins), for the reality of our justification produces an increasing affection for Christ that causes us to strive to add these qualities in our lives. Grace teaches us and motivates us to deny ungodliness, etc... So, therefore verse 10 says that we are to resolve the issue of our calling and election, to make it sure in our minds by resting our assurance on the finished work of Christ, and rest in faith in that, as verse 9 says, we have already had our sins washed away. For, out of assurance flows a freeness to love Christ, to practice holiness so as to not be distracted back into the world away from the cross, and thereby become unfruitful in our knowledge of him. And therefore, the stumbling of our faith will be lessened, and our walk will be more rich and lively, and we will be more established in our knowledge of Christ, which, as verse 3 says, is where everything that pertains to life and godliness for us is to be had. That's how I tend to see it for now.
Blessings!
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