Seminary Students on Food Stamps

[jwithnell]

Where are the churches that sent these men to seminary?

Or the deacons where they are currently members ...

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

accepting food stamps to get an education in a field that you aren't guaranteed any type of job and if you get a job aren't guaranteed any type of reasonable pay seems odd. The whole seminary model is broken. churches don't supports and seminaries dont educate in areas that need to be taught.

 

[LawrenceU]

And just for the sake of argument, for all those saying you should turn aside Food Stamps, would you turn aside public education? Pell Grants for undergraduate study? State subsidy grants for undergrad work? Tax credits for buying certain items? Tax credits/deductions of any kind? All these things are paid for at some level on the public dole.

Public education: Yes, turn it aside for the same reasons and others.
Pell Grants: Yes, for the same reasons.
State subsidies for undergrad work: Yep.
Tax credits: Apples and Oranges. This is not taking someone else's money it is not sending in yours.

Our nation has become so well trained by socialist tax masters that we don't even flinch at much of the tyranny that is foisted upon us. It is a factor in the increased inflation we have been experiencing for the past 100 years that is rarely discussed. Subsidies and 'assistance' programs are the primary reason for educational expenses increases. They do the same thing in other areas of the economy as well. Just because it is the normal way of doing things, just because it is legal, just because it seems 'wise' does not make it right. By taking that type of assistance one is becoming a slave. Even food stamps enslave.

The chains of tyranny have been forged and are being welded shut on many Christians because of acquiescence to financial assistance. Oh, the rings on ankles and wrists might be comfortable right now because they are lined with velvet, ermine, or sueded, but that will wear away and then the cold iron of slavery will be known.

 

[satz]

And just for the sake of argument, for all those saying you should turn aside Food Stamps, would you turn aside public education? Pell Grants for undergraduate study? State subsidy grants for undergrad work? Tax credits for buying certain items? Tax credits/deductions of any kind? All these things are paid for at some level on the public dole.

Public education: Yes, turn it aside for the same reasons and others.
Pell Grants: Yes, for the same reasons.
State subsidies for undergrad work: Yep.
Tax credits: Apples and Oranges. This is not taking someone else's money it is not sending in yours.

Our nation has become so well trained by socialist tax masters that we don't even flinch at much of the tyranny that is foisted upon us. It is a factor in the increased inflation we have been experiencing for the past 100 years that is rarely discussed. Subsidies and 'assistance' programs are the primary reason for educational expenses increases. They do the same thing in other areas of the economy as well. Just because it is the normal way of doing things, just because it is legal, just because it seems 'wise' does not make it right. By taking that type of assistance one is becoming a slave. Even food stamps enslave.

The chains of tyranny have been forged and are being welded shut on many Christians because of acquiescence to financial assistance. Oh, the rings on ankles and wrists might be comfortable right now because they are lined with velvet, ermine, or sueded, but that will wear away and then the cold iron of slavery will be known.

How does taking food stamps enslave someone? Just because they avail to something once does not mean they are bound to keep using it time and again.

 

[Damon Rambo]

And just for the sake of argument, for all those saying you should turn aside Food Stamps, would you turn aside public education? Pell Grants for undergraduate study? State subsidy grants for undergrad work? Tax credits for buying certain items? Tax credits/deductions of any kind? All these things are paid for at some level on the public dole.

Public education: Yes, turn it aside for the same reasons and others.
Pell Grants: Yes, for the same reasons.
State subsidies for undergrad work: Yep.
Tax credits: Apples and Oranges. This is not taking someone else's money it is not sending in yours.

Um, excuse me, but this is incorrect. I will admit for some this is true. Those who do not work, are indeed taking others money. If a person is sitting around on their lazy rear-end taking food stamps and welfare when they could be working, they should be ashamed.

However, a person who IS working, but who does not make enough money, is NOT taking other people's money. For instance, a person making 20,000 a year, pays in about 5,000 (more in some states) a year in taxes (Social Security, Medicare, Property taxes, state income taxes, sales tax). If they take 3,000 a year in food stamps, this is not "taking other people's money." It is keeping their own money, just like tax deductions (BTW, many tax credits and deductions are 'technically' a redistribution of wealth...EIC, School credits, and any other "pre tax" credit...)

Our nation has become so well trained by socialist tax masters that we don't even flinch at much of the tyranny that is foisted upon us. It is a factor in the increased inflation we have been experiencing for the past 100 years that is rarely discussed. Subsidies and 'assistance' programs are the primary reason for educational expenses increases. They do the same thing in other areas of the economy as well. Just because it is the normal way of doing things, just because it is legal, just because it seems 'wise' does not make it right. By taking that type of assistance one is becoming a slave. Even food stamps enslave.

The chains of tyranny have been forged and are being welded shut on many Christians because of acquiescence to financial assistance. Oh, the rings on ankles and wrists might be comfortable right now because they are lined with velvet, ermine, or sueded, but that will wear away and then the cold iron of slavery will be known.

I VERY much agree with your last paragraph. However, until the laws are changed and the system is fixed, some people have little choice. A person is not relieved from their duties just because the government has a stranglehold on finances. The system is in place, and, just like the wicked Roman government of the 1st century, we are commanded to submit to it, and live in it.

 

[LawrenceU]

Mark, it enslaves because it makes those you use it come to rely upon the source. It is a pernicious evil. I have seen this first hand from folks who one would never think could fall for the trap.

Damon, I know what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is that 3,000.00 in aid does not equal 3,000.00. It is not a revenue neutral programme. The federal and state bureaucratic overhead on the programme is excessive, as are all government initiatives.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Damon, I know what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is that 3,000.00 in aid does not equal 3,000.00. It is not a revenue neutral programme. The federal and state bureaucratic overhead on the programme is excessive, as are all government initiatives.

I understand what you mean, brother. I also understand your frustration with our current system. But a person who is robbed of their money is not responsible for how the thieves use it. Not to mention, that same "overhead" applies to tax deductions, credits, and various other subsidies that even you benefit from, probably unknowingly.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Every city. Liberty online has provided a way for anyone to get an undergrad in religion and this degree is accepted at most if not all major seminaries.

I wasn't clear in my post - I was referring to a seminary education. That clarification aside, I wouldn't include Liberty as being broadly reformed.

My apologies. I thought BR stood for Bachelors in Religion.

Off the top of my head we have:

Charlotte
Jackson
Columbia, SC
Dallas, TX
Philly
Greenville
St. Louis
Escondido
Grand Rapids
Houston
Orlando
Atlanta
DC
Memphis

Every city due to RTS allowing a MA online.

I am sure I am missing some, but that is what comes to mind.

 

[satz]

Mark, it enslaves because it makes those you use it come to rely upon the source. It is a pernicious evil. I have seen this first hand from folks who one would never think could fall for the trap.

But surely anything can be abused and people can make mistakes and become overly dependent on anything.

That doesn't mean it can't be right for someone to use a benefit the government (even if it is a very imperfect government) provides to help out in their situation.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Mark, it enslaves because it makes those you use it come to rely upon the source. It is a pernicious evil. I have seen this first hand from folks who one would never think could fall for the trap.

But surely anything can be abused and people can make mistakes and become overly dependent on anything.

That doesn't mean it can't be right for someone to use a benefit the government (even if it is a very imperfect government) provides to help out in their situation.

That is exactly right. The question "Should we have such a system?" is different than the question, "Since we are stuck with the system, should we live according to it?" I say NO, to the first, YES to the second.

 

[kvanlaan]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." - Alexander Tyler

 

[Notthemama1984]

Who said that? I have seen the quote numerous times, but never who actually said it.

 

[Edward]

Or the deacons where they are currently members ...

Are we talking about widows and orphans here? Are we talking about men unable to work to support their families? Or are we talking about men who have made choices?

Instead of being full time students and part time workers, perhaps these men should be full time workers and part time students. I don't see the shortcoming by the deacons.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Or the deacons where they are currently members ...

Are we talking about widows and orphans here? Are we talking about men unable to work to support their families? Or are we talking about men who have made choices?

Instead of being full time students and part time workers, perhaps these men should be full time workers and part time students. I don't see the shortcoming by the deacons.

I can assure you that all of the men with families in seminary are part time students and full-time workers. The average student in seminary takes five years to get a three year degree. All of us work full time in the sense that we work 40 hours, its just that we tend to have peon type jobs. I was in restaurant management for 15 years and in my last job I made over $60000 a year. The problem with a job like that is that it takes all of your time. You are lucky if you can even go to church one or two Sundays a month, much less try to manage even a part-time school workload. The only way we can manage school at all is to work as many part-time jobs as we can get and work around our school schedule. Unfortunately, these jobs tend to pay in the $8-9 and hour range, which doesn't go far with a large family.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Or the deacons where they are currently members ...

Are we talking about widows and orphans here? Are we talking about men unable to work to support their families? Or are we talking about men who have made choices?

Instead of being full time students and part time workers, perhaps these men should be full time workers and part time students. I don't see the shortcoming by the deacons.

I can assure you that all of the men with families in seminary are part time students and full-time workers. The average student in seminary takes five years to get a three year degree. All of us work full time in the sense that we work 40 hours, its just that we tend to have peon type jobs. I was in restaurant management for 15 years and in my last job I made over $60000 a year. The problem with a job like that is that it takes all of your time. You are lucky if you can even go to church one or two Sundays a month, much less try to manage even a part-time school workload. The only way we can manage school at all is to work as many part-time jobs as we can get and work around our school schedule. Unfortunately, these jobs tend to pay in the $8-9 and hour range, which doesn't go far with a large family.

Exactly. You are constrained by the system. Were the government not robbing you of the money you pay out on social security, medicare, state income tax, etc., none of the seminarians at your seminary would need the food stamps; there jobs would be enough.

Honestly, this is also one of the reasons I am in favor of Student Loans. You run yourself ragged trying to keep up with Seminary tuition on 8 to 9 dollar an hour jobs, unable to put the full effort into your studies, when even a relatively low paid full time pastor (say the 40,000 dollar per year area) can make payments on that same sum twice as fast (a full time (40 hour) 9 dollar per hour job is less than half, yearly). This is especially true for subsidized (interest free) loans.

It is sad to me the quandary that my beloved "Big Six" puts students in...

 

[Grillsy]

Exactly. You are constrained by the system. Were the government not robbing you of the money you pay out on social security, medicare, state income tax, etc., none of the seminarians at your seminary would need the food stamps; there jobs would be enough.

Indeed. If working individuals would be allowed to keep all their earnings rather than have it involuntarily taken from them before they even see their paycheck many would be able to make ends meet so much easier.

Honestly, this is also one of the reasons I am in favor of Student Loans. You run yourself ragged trying to keep up with Seminary tuition on 8 to 9 dollar an hour jobs, unable to put the full effort into your studies, when even a relatively low paid full time pastor (say the 40,000 dollar per year area) can make payments on that same sum twice as fast (a full time (40 hour) 9 dollar per hour job is less than half, yearly). This is especially true for subsidized (interest free) loans.

As much I hate to endorse going in to massive debt, especially for ministry where churches, presbyterys and denominations should be giving much more than they are, Damon's advice is technically accurate and sadly one of the better options.

Damon I don't mean that as an attack on you or your advice, as I think you know, rather it is evidence of the sad state of our over-taxed and over-entitled America.

 

[SolaScriptura]

If God didn't make you rich enough to afford seminary with your own cash, or with the ability to pay-as-you-go, or through the financial support of a church, He obviously didn't want you in seminary.

Bwah ha ha ha!

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

I took 4 years to do my MDiv - that included classes during all the winter and summer sessions as well - because I had to work to support my family.

 

[Grillsy]

took 4 years to do my MDiv - that included classes during all the winter and summer sessions as well - because I had to work to support my family.

What about the Army chaplaincy? Did that pay for part of it?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Exactly. You are constrained by the system. Were the government not robbing you of the money you pay out on social security, medicare, state income tax, etc., none of the seminarians at your seminary would need the food stamps; there jobs would be enough

That is not true. I only paid 350 in taxes last year. When you are only working peon jobs, you don't have taxes to pay.

 

[Edward]

I can assure you that all of the men with families in seminary are part time students and full-time workers.

All? 100%? No married seminary student that's taking a full load of classes? Maybe I need to start calling seminary registrars tomorrow to see if I can find one with a married student that's taking a full class schedule. Perhaps things have changed greatly in the last few years.

 

[Notthemama1984]

No need to call. I am enrolled in 18 hrs and am not working full time anywhere. I am married.

 

[Brother John]

Wow what a discussion I entered this thread expecting it to be a slam dunk one sided conversation, what a surprise.

How did the church (particularly the Presbyterians) handle the issue of support for men in seminary throughout church history?

I had someone tell me the other day that when a friend of there's went through seminary in the sixties for the episcopal church he was given free married housing, denomination paid tuition and he was payed a small "salary" so he could be a full student, has anyone heard of such a thing? Is this accurate?

 

[Notthemama1984]

I don't know about other denoms, but the RCC is this way. I also know that a few scholarships are available, but an overwhelming majority of guys have to foot the bill themselves.

 

[SolaScriptura]

took 4 years to do my MDiv - that included classes during all the winter and summer sessions as well - because I had to work to support my family.

What about the Army chaplaincy? Did that pay for part of it?

Nope.

 

[TomVols]

Exactly. You are constrained by the system. Were the government not robbing you of the money you pay out on social security, medicare, state income tax, etc., none of the seminarians at your seminary would need the food stamps; there jobs would be enough

That is not true. I only paid 350 in taxes last year. When you are only working peon jobs, you don't have taxes to pay.

You raise an excellent point. The poor in this country pay little in net taxes due to real tax rate. The overwhelming tax burden (via the real tax rate) is borne by the top 3-5% of taxpayers. A very large group of people pay little income tax at all, and a surprising number pay none.

 

[Notthemama1984]

It is worse than that. I paid 350 in taxes, but received a 1,500 refund.

 

[Grillsy]

Nope.

Is that normal or did you go to seminary before joining the Army Chaplain Program?

 

[Edward]

No need to call. I am enrolled in 18 hrs and am not working full time anywhere. I am married.

Thanks. I should have remembered your diligent pursuit of a degree from earlier posts. Doffing my hat to you.

 

[Notthemama1984]

No need to tip your hat. I am just a crazy person who luckily can grasp things quickly.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Exactly. You are constrained by the system. Were the government not robbing you of the money you pay out on social security, medicare, state income tax, etc., none of the seminarians at your seminary would need the food stamps; there jobs would be enough

That is not true. I only paid 350 in taxes last year. When you are only working peon jobs, you don't have taxes to pay.

Wow. How did you get out of mandatory Social Security and Medicare tax? Do you have some kind of special exemption from property taxes, automobile taxes, registration fees, sales tax, state income tax, etc.? Do you not pay the same special taxes on your phone bill, light bill, and natural gas bill? How did you get exemption from the 40 cents per gallon tax on gasoline? The 14.6 cents a gallon state gasoline tax?

The fact is, unless you only made a 1000 bucks for last year, you paid FAR more than 350 dollars in taxes. In fact, if you paid 350 dollars in actual Federal income taxes, you are probably in close to a 50 percent tax bracket in terms of total taxes.

Don't drink the Kool-aid, brother.