The Amill position

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Andrew P.C.

Puritan Board Junior
Hello brothers and sisters,

Could anyone provide me with articles or an article that could convince me of the Amill position. I've been listening to Gene Cook and I'm starting to see what the Amill position is actually saying. For a few years I've been taught from dispensational teachers, and have finally, in the past few months, come to reject the dispensational view. Now I'm stuck with no position at all. :(

Could any of you help a brother out?
 
Hello brothers and sisters,

Could anyone provide me with articles or an article that could convince me of the Amill position. I've been listening to Gene Cook and I'm starting to see what the Amill position is actually saying. For a few years I've been taught from dispensational teachers, and have finally, in the past few months, come to reject the dispensational view. Now I'm stuck with no position at all. :(

Could any of you help a brother out?

I'd check out Kim Riddlebargers site. he also has an excellent book called "the case for amillenialism". I highly reccomend it. Also on sermon audio, Mark Allison has a couple of messages called "prophetic presuppostions" that are worth listening to.
BTW, check out Chris Hand on sermon audio. He has a lot of stuff on the amill postion.
 
I know that you can go to
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/
and read quite a bit on amil. Kim Riddlebarger also wrote a great book call a Case for Amil.
I became amil after studying the various eschatologies but some reformed thinker's are post mil. I wouldn't argue that they are wrong but I think amil is the best for me and closer to what I see in scripture. I joke with my post mil friends and say I live post mil but believe amil.
 


Honestly, I believe the postmil position has some fallacies within the system. They see a time of great revival. I truly do not see that in scripture. It makes more sense, from scripture, to conclude that there will be a great apostasy, then following the judgment. I will look into those though. Thank you.
 
I am lucky enough to have grown up in an Anglican diocese whose beliefs are Reformed Amil. I'd never heard of any other system until a few years ago!
 
I am lucky enough to have grown up in an Anglican diocese whose beliefs are Reformed Amil. I'd never heard of any other system until a few years ago!

Unfortunetly, my mind still thinks in a dispensational way. :(

I'm learning though. Please pray for me.
 
Will do, brother. Pray and read through Galatians and Hebrews carefully. Don't look anywhere else but the scriptures!

It was a Bible study on Romans at the Gospel Hall I attended that cause me to reject my dispensationalism :)

My The Companion Bible is lying around somewhere.
 
For a few years I've been taught from dispensational teachers, and have finally, in the past few months, come to reject the dispensational view. Now I'm stuck with no position at all.

Why not keep the premillennialism while dumping the dispensationalism? They're not the same thing, you know, although WAY too many people think they are, including a certain well-known pastor in California...
 
Why not keep the premillennialism while dumping the dispensationalism? They're not the same thing, you know, although WAY too many people think they are, including a certain well-known pastor in California...

Lol, you mean good old Johnny boy?

Well, I've been recently looking into the issue of a literal kingdom. I don't know if it's there in the scriptures or not. Gene Cook's program has started to convince me otherwise.
 
Hello brothers and sisters,

Could anyone provide me with articles or an article that could convince me of the Amill position. I've been listening to Gene Cook and I'm starting to see what the Amill position is actually saying. For a few years I've been taught from dispensational teachers, and have finally, in the past few months, come to reject the dispensational view. Now I'm stuck with no position at all. :(

Could any of you help a brother out?

Oh, there is also the Bible :D
 
Oh, there is also the Bible :D

:ditto:

The sad fact for pre-millers is that only one passage in the whole bible speaks of a 'millennium', and it is in revelation 20 replete with symbolism. There is no clear evidence (without inferring and twisting) that Jesus, Paul, or any apostle teach any such period, and there is a endless amount of evidence for one final day (John 5:28-29). Furthermore, it never talks anywhere in the bible of more than 2 comings of Christ. As far as scripture is concerned, the amil position is the only one that can be supported without a mass of contradictions and confusion.
 
Well, as a pretty recent convert to the reformed faith, it's hard to go into the scriptures without presuppositions or even knowing what the other side teaches.

There is no other side ;) We are all on one side (or should be), and that is God's side, and sola scriptura (scripture alone) should be the hermeneutic that we all hold to. If you don't understand a passage, search, compare scripture with scripture and let God interpret for you. Study to show yourself approved unto God! The Bible comes first before any view of 'man', because we are to destroy speculations raised against the knowledge of God (2 Cor 10:5). God, in His wisdom, has created all sorts of beliefs and views within the christian faith. Why? So we will all study the scriptures more and rely upon God to find what the truth is!

I will be praying for you, brother.
 
Oh, there is also the Bible :D

Well, as a pretty recent convert to the reformed faith, it's hard to go into the scriptures without presuppositions or even knowing what the other side teaches.

I know it's not that simple. Hence the smiley.

Properly interpreting scripture takes time, care and effort. We are often lazy and jump to conclusions when they seem to match our presuppostitions. It is also very easy to "read-in" to a passage our presuppostitions.


As an example, John 5:28-29:
28 "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice" 29 "and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."​

Note the "all", bolded, in verse 28 as well as "an hour", indicating a very short time (if not a literal hour).

But what do Dispensationalists do? They ignore the "plain" (literal :D ) reading of verse 28 ("all" and "an hour") and "read-in" 1000 years (or 1007 years) right after the second comma in verse 29 to get

those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and 1000 years later, those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.​

The clear, plain, literal reading of this passage not just mentions the resurrection of the Just and of the Unjust but directly unites them into a single event. So, there is no basis at all in this passage to split these events apart. But they must be split in order to fit the Disp. view.


So, this is a clear "Amil" (or even PostMill) passage.

Remember, with "scripture interprets scripture" you let the clear interpret the less clear. So, when you come to Rev. 20 and the first and second resurrections, what do you do? [No, I will try to definitively explain Rev 20 here :scholar: ].

First, you realize that Rev. 20 is not a "clear" passage and its interpretation is very disputed. Second the phrase "First resurrection" apprears no where else in scripture and "second resurrection" is not actually mentioned [but it says "The rest of the dead did not come to life until (1000 years after the first res)"], so what is meant by the "rest of the dead"? Those part of the "first resurrection" are referred to as "souls" and are martyrs or did not worship the beast (they are believers not unbelievers).

So, many questions and some not very easy. John 5:28-29 and very easy and plain. Let John 5 guide your understanding of Rev. 20:4-6. So, can Rev. 20:4-6 fit the Disp. view? Possibly (but there are other issues). An Amill view? Possibly. It depends on how we understand "first resurrection" and who is in view. But this is a difficult passage so much care must be taken.
[BTW, Amill understandings of "first resurrection" - taken from scripture - are 1) conversion 2) translation to heaven, "with Christ", after death before the second coming. I go with (2) - note use of "souls" in verse 4.]


Bottom line is we can't read-in what is not there, only go as far as the passage goes - and no further.
Ask quesitons like:
  • What does it allow?
  • What does it rule out?
  • What is clear?
  • What is difficult where we need to not be dogmatic?
  • What limits/application is clear? E.g. the "binding" of Satan is not absolute but only spoken of that "he might not deceive the nations."
We can not force scripture to say to much in order to fit our views. And we must allow it so say what it actually does - not ignore implications we do not like!

Again, time, care and honesty in interpretation. We are all guilty of not doing it right, but we must prayfully work to handle scripture correctly.

Long post, but I hope it helps.
 
Some more references to add to what javajedi posted...

John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day

John 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:44 - Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day

John 12:21-27 (taken in context)
21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you."
23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.[d] Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

John 12:48 - The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day


All of these passages from John point to one last day where, as we can see, both believers to the resurrection of life (first 4 passages), and non-believers to judgment. There is no hidden meanings, it is very plain and clear to see.

The passage with Martha is very key in interpreting the first resurrection in Revelation 20 (among more) Lazarus had physically died, and Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again", Martha (being humanly minded) tells Jesus, "I know he will be resurrected (physically) on the last day", then Jesus tells her "I am the resurrection and the life". Jesus immediately goes to the spiritual and told Martha that he who believes in Him will be resurrected to life, that is, from being dead in sin. The raising of Lazarus is another 'type' or picture of a literal happening of a spiritual reality (in this case being regeneration). This tells me that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 points to Christ, and the elect (those who will come to saving faith, those who do not worship the beast, those who were in Christ when he died and were resurrected with Him) Over these the second death (judgment and hell) has no power!

The first resurrection was in Christ, it has happened, praise the Lord!

"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins...And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -Colossians 1:13-14, 18

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" - Eph 2:4-6

"To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles." - Acts 26:23

Thoughts, comments?
 
Hi,

The key to overcoming the premil (and dispensational) way of reading Scripture is twofold:

1) Jesus is at the center of the unfolding story of redemption from Gen to Rev; therefore the national covenant with Israel was only meant to be temporary;

2) the New Testament not only teaches us how Jesus fulfilled all the promises but how to read the Hebrew Scriptures.

See the latest number of Modern Reformation (shameless plug #2 - no more, I promise)

rsc
 
:agree:

This is real good book even though it was written in the 50s? (40s?). I still see many quote from it and its an easy read.

William Hendricksen's More Than Conquerors was published in 1939. It was the first book published by what was then Baker Book House Company.
 
Andrew,

Just my experience if its helpful I'd go from easy to harder and larger:

1. The Man of Sin, K. Riddlebarger (a nice small light starting point).
2. A Case For Amill., K. R. (this book was first but for me #1 was better in order for me to digest)
3. The Bible and the Future, A. Hoekema
4. Concordia Commentary on Revelation, Brighton (Lutheran but amill. its a great large treatment in which you will find tons of connections, amil)

The amill position gives the greatest hope under the intensity of suffering.

Anyway, that's my two bits if you find it helpful great.

Blessings,

larry
 
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