Tithing - Gross or After Taxes?

[De Jager]

Good day all,

Before I start, please note that I do not want this thread to become a debate on the merits of tithing. For the purposes of this thread, it is assumed that the giving of 10% to the local church is a godly practice.

Let's say I earn $100,000 (Gross) in 2023
After income tax it is $80,000
Do I tithe on the gross or after tax?
Do I treat the income tax as a sort of "business expense" like if I ran my own business, and then tithe on the $80k I actually take home?
Or, do I consider it as a personal expense like a mortgage, food, cars, etc....and of course I wouldn't tithe after I had deducted those things!

Right now my practice is to tithe on gross income. So in the example above, the difference would be tithing $10k vs. $8k.

I feel like this is a pertinent question because of inflation and because money is tight in general.

 

[Logan]

I tithe on gross, personally but I can understand the feelings of those who tithe on their "increase".

 

[De Jager]

I tithe on gross, personally but I can understand the feelings of those who tithe on their "increase".

I tithe on gross as well.

But I was thinking about income tax vs other expenses. I think it is important to make a distinction between income tax and things like food, clothing, heat, etc.

Expenses like food, clothing, heat would exist whether you had a job or not. The income tax exists purely because I earn an income. In my province, governments take 21% of my gross pay. For this reason I can see the argument of treating it like a "business expense". No one would expect someone running a small business to tithe on gross revenue...but on net profit after expenses - i.e. you tithe on what you "take home".

I have to be perfectly honest I used to tithe on what I received after taxes, and just changed this year and did so kind of spontaneously and I'm harbouring some resentment because it ends up being a lot more. So my attitude needs a check for sure.

 

[Ploutos]

To quote from a former pastor of mine - "Well, do you want God's blessing on the gross or on the net?"

It's kind of a humorous remark, though it does encapsulate why I tithe on the gross. I don't think, though, that either approach is wrong. Your resentment, though, could point to the actual issue needing to be addressed which is not ultimately about whether you tithe on gross or net pay - and which you already seem to be aware of.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

10% after taxes.

 

[DanSSwing]

I personally do my church tithe based on gross and non-church charitable giving based on after-tax income. But if my tax load were unacceptably high (I currently get a lot of child credits), I don't think I'd be wrong to switch over to net.

 

[JP Wallace]

I think gross - God should get the firstfruits regardless of what the govt. wants, or I want or need.

Proverbs 3:9-10 ESV “9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.”

 

[Polanus1561]

I think gross - God should get the firstfruits regardless of what the govt. wants, or I want or need.

Proverbs 3:9-10 ESV “9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.”

Vats bursting? Europeans would feel uneasy...

 

[iainduguid]

If you are truly "tithing", according to the Old Testament, it's 10% of your agricultural produce from the land the Lord promised you. So the answer is, neither. If you are excelling in the grace of giving, as Paul instructs us, this isn't even a question.

 

[Ploutos]

If you are truly "tithing", according to the Old Testament, it's 10% of your agricultural produce from the land the Lord promised you. So the answer is, neither. If you are excelling in the grace of giving, as Paul instructs us, this isn't even a question.

@iainduguid Do you see any value in the 10% figure as a convenient "benchmark" for people rather than as some sort of implicitly mandatory practice?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

One could argue that the "general equity" of tithing requires us to use part of our income to support the church as opposed to a literal tithe. From what I have read, most Reformed divines take this view, though I could be mistaken.

 

[iainduguid]

@iainduguid Do you see any value in the 10% figure as a convenient "benchmark" for people rather than as some sort of implicitly mandatory practice?

Maybe as an initial set of training wheels. But it's the difference between law and grace. The law asks "What's the amount I am duty bound to give?" Paul says, "How much am I able to give in response to the love I have received?" You can't really get from the first question to the second; they are entirely different in kind.

Personally, I think if we are going to insist on tithing, we should also insist of the law of first dough (Num 15:18-21): whenever anyone in my congregation makes a loaf of bread (or a batch of brownies), the first piece must be given to the pastor.

For a fuller explanation of the tithe laws, and their relation to Christian giving (including general equity application), there's a handy little book here:

Amazon.com

 

[Edward]

and I'm harbouring some resentment because it ends up being a lot more.

Then you are giving too much. Give as much as you can gladly give. Don't be legalistic in a non-Reformed way.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I am a school teacher and have a farm (I teach to support my habit of farming). I tithe my teacher pay based on the gross amount of each paycheck. I tithe the profit (when there is any) from my farm at the end of each year.

I've never been able to figure out how to consistently apply general equity gleaned from Biblical agriculture to modern agriculture (for example, rarely are the firstfruits the nicest) other than giving a lot of product away or discounting it to folks in need or in ministry. I've thought of raising and selling off the first calf from a heifer and adding that money to my regular tithe, but then there's places like Deuteronomy 12.17-18 which seem to indicate that you were to eat your tithe (just not at home and invite some Levites) or sell the firstborn and "bestow the money for whatsoever thine heart desireth." (Deuteronomy 14.22-27)

it's the difference between law and grace

So probably this.

 

[iainduguid]

there's places like Deuteronomy 12.17-18 which seem to indicate that you were to eat your tithe (just not at home and invite some Levites) or sell the firstborn and "bestow the money for whatsoever thine heart desireth." (Deuteronomy 14.22-27)

So probably this.

Don't forget drinking some of your tithe at the central sanctuary with family and friends, in the form of alcoholic beverages (Deut. 14:26). I cover the general equity application in my book.

 

[arapahoepark]

Maybe as an initial set of training wheels. But it's the difference between law and grace. The law asks "What's the amount I am duty bound to give?" Paul says, "How much am I able to give in response to the love I have received?" You can't really get from the first question to the second; they are entirely different in kind.

Personally, I think if we are going to insist on tithing, we should also insist of the law of first dough (Num 15:18-21): whenever anyone in my congregation makes a loaf of bread (or a batch of brownies), the first piece must be given to the pastor.

For a fuller explanation of the tithe laws, and their relation to Christian giving (including general equity application), there's a handy little book here:

Amazon.com

Going to tithe on some of that book income??





JK of course

 

[Polanus1561]

Don't forget drinking some of your tithe at the central sanctuary with family and friends, in the form of alcoholic beverages (Deut. 14:26). I cover the general equity application in my book.

When is volume 1 of the ESVEC coming out?

 

[SolaScriptura]

I believe good and sound arguments can be presented for either option. My counsel is always - for this particular question, anyway - is to follow your biblically informed conscience. The most important matter is, I believe, attitudinal: Are you being generous and free from the love of money, and are you with the resources God has entrusted to you seeking to honor God, expand the work of the Kingdom, and bless those in need? And are you growing in the grace of liberality? If so, whether it’s off the gross or net I’m not going to quibble. However, I do believe it important to be consistent, regular, and disciplined.

For me, I tithe on my net: whatever money comes into my account - for any reason, whether wages, tax refund, birthday gifts of cash, etc. - I give based on that.

 

[Ben Zartman]

I have my own retail/service business, and also sign on temporarily as a W2 employee here and there, sometimes receiving cash tips. I tend to give roughly on what enters my bank account, since parsing everything out would take more time than it was worth. If I was only a W2 employee, I'd tithe on net, then tithe on whatever return I got at tax time. What the government skims off isn't my increase, but theirs. If I wanted to split hairs, though, would I deduct the non-business sales taxes I pay from what I consider my increase? Should I deduct the price of lights and heat in my workshop, and the miles I drive for work?--it just gets far too complicated!
I have an uncomfortable feeling, moreover, that if I split hairs too much over what I need to give, God will split hairs at me--if I give just enough, I might receive only just enough. Better, I feel, to roughly tally week by week what came in, round up, and rejoice that the God who would not tell me if He were hungry is pleased to receive my offerings. I doubt He'll feel shortchanged in the end, when it's the disposition of my heart that He values more.

 

[Ploutos]

I have my own retail/service business, and also sign on temporarily as a W2 employee here and there, sometimes receiving cash tips. I tend to give roughly on what enters my bank account, since parsing everything out would take more time than it was worth. If I was only a W2 employee, I'd tithe on net, then tithe on whatever return I got at tax time. What the government skims off isn't my increase, but theirs. If I wanted to split hairs, though, would I deduct the non-business sales taxes I pay from what I consider my increase? Should I deduct the price of lights and heat in my workshop, and the miles I drive for work?--it just gets far too complicated!
I have an uncomfortable feeling, moreover, that if I split hairs too much over what I need to give, God will split hairs at me--if I give just enough, I might receive only just enough. Better, I feel, to roughly tally week by week what came in, round up, and rejoice that the God who would not tell me if He were hungry is pleased to receive my offerings. I doubt He'll feel shortchanged in the end, when it's the disposition of my heart that He values more.

That has some similarities to what I do in that I feel that putting too much effort into a precise calculation takes away from the spirit of it. There's usually some estimating and rounding up in my tithing practices as well (though in distinction to you I tithe on the gross and not net - but I'm not a business owner).

 

[Jack K]

Going to tithe on some of that book income??

To do it the right way so it's the full tithe, you need to give 10 percent of the cover price of every book sold.

(Sorry to explain the joke, but that would likely be a net loss for many Christian authors.)

 

[Andres]

Gross. I have investments and benefits such as health taken out pre-tax and I view it as I am acknowledging the Lord as my provider for these things and am thankful for His provision of health insurance, retirement, etc. so I tithe on gross income.
In my earliest years as a Christian, I did not always do this and I would also tithe on any income tax returns then. Now I do not feel conscience bound to tithe on my income tax returns (I may still give over my tithe from them) because of my tithing on gross income year round.

 

[Ed Walsh]

10% after taxes.

Is that like paying 10% after the Locust have eaten their share?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Is that like paying 10% after the Locust have eaten their share?

A famous line from Gary North!

 

[De Jager]

If you are truly "tithing", according to the Old Testament, it's 10% of your agricultural produce from the land the Lord promised you. So the answer is, neither. If you are excelling in the grace of giving, as Paul instructs us, this isn't even a question.

I think the concept of the tithe precedes the mosaic law, so it is a question for me. Furthermore even if it was just a mosaic law, wouldn't we still adopt the general principle in the new testament economy? This almost seems like a dispensational answer to me.

Yes, I acknowledge you are a professor and I am not. I'm just saying how this answer comes across.

 

[iainduguid]

I think the concept of the tithe precedes the mosaic law, so it is a question for me. Furthermore even if it was just a mosaic law, wouldn't we still adopt the general principle in the new testament economy? This almost seems like a dispensational answer to me.

Yes, I acknowledge you are a professor and I am not. I'm just saying how this answer comes across.

The concept of an annual tithe of the land's produce does not predate the Mosaic law. Abraham vows 10% of the spoils of battle in Genesis 14, and Jacob vows 10% of what the Lord gives him if he comes safely back to the Promised Land in Genesis 28, but neither of these resembles the Levitical tithe. In fact, if Jacob is simply vowing to do something everyone has to do anyway, that's not much of a vow. Likewise, in the NT the Pharisees are commended for tithing their mint and cumin (NB agricultural products), but that is prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, and so the Mosaic law still applies. Jesus still owed the annual temple tax but I never hear people speaking about that being an ongoing obligation.

My argument is that tithing (as part of a much larger web of laws about giving) falls under the category of civil law; as such, we may derive appropriate general equity principles from it (along with other laws, such as "first dough" and "temple tax"), but not bind people to it as if it were moral law. Read the e-book for a fuller explanation.

My concern is that the tithe is usually extracted from its context as if it were the only OT principle about giving and continued to be universally applicable as the first (perhaps only) principle to consider in our giving. Because tithing is integrally related to the land and the Sinai covenant, there are blessings and curses attached to it that it is inappropriate to carry over directly to our context. One result of such preaching is the tendency for people to be concerned that "If I split hairs too much over what I need to give, God will split hairs at me--if I give just enough, I might receive only just enough." Or alternatively, to boast that because they have tithed, the Lord has blessed them and their business.

There are important lessons to be derived from the OT tithe to be sure (again, see the e-book), but the focus of the NT is on a heart motivated by the superabundant grace of God that desires to excel in the grace of giving in return. It's the difference between a husband who asks "What's the minimum I need to spend on my wife's birthday present?" and a husband who seeks out the very best they can afford for their spouse. You can't get from law-driven giving to grace-driven giving: they are two entirely different things. But, equally, grace doesn't let us off the hook: it will be a rare occurrence for the former husband to outgive the latter.

What I'm saying is "Should I tithe on the gross or the net?" is a law-driven question. The person seeking to excel in the grace of giving will be so eager to give that the question doesn't even arise. If they have given 10% of the net and there is opportunity and ability to give more, then they will give more, even far more than 10% of the gross. But even then, they will reflect on how little they have given in comparison to the grace they have received.

 

[Ploutos]

Prof. Duguid - I have traditionally held myself to a 10% tithe, not because I believe I'm under some Biblical mandate to do so, but because it seems to me a good place to start and a good standard to hold myself to as a check against my own sinfulness. That is paired, of course, with a goal to do so cheerfully, which I think I have generally done since I began tithing. If there's a connection with the OT, it's that the OT tithing guidelines provide the basis for my chosen "starting point".

It eliminates, for me, some of the inner wrangling and shuts off an opportunity for my sinful flesh to assert its selfishness, and forces me to trust God to provide for me with what is left afterwards. On top of that, my wife and I do provide a small amount to support some missionaries we personally know, and as the Lord blesses (and hopefully, continues to bless) us with increases in income, we periodically evaluate whether we can give more.

Provided I don't start imposing this way of doing things on others, does that seem like a valid way to approach giving? Or would you find my thought process problematic?

 

[De Jager]

The concept of an annual tithe of the land's produce does not predate the Mosaic law. Abraham vows 10% of the spoils of battle in Genesis 14, and Jacob vows 10% of what the Lord gives him if he comes safely back to the Promised Land in Genesis 28, but neither of these resembles the Levitical tithe. In fact, if Jacob is simply vowing to do something everyone has to do anyway, that's not much of a vow. Likewise, in the NT the Pharisees are commended for tithing their mint and cumin (NB agricultural products), but that is prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, and so the Mosaic law still applies. Jesus still owed the annual temple tax but I never hear people speaking about that being an ongoing obligation.

My argument is that tithing (as part of a much larger web of laws about giving) falls under the category of civil law; as such, we may derive appropriate general equity principles from it (along with other laws, such as "first dough" and "temple tax"), but not bind people to it as if it were moral law. Read the e-book for a fuller explanation.

My concern is that the tithe is usually extracted from its context as if it were the only OT principle about giving and continued to be universally applicable as the first (perhaps only) principle to consider in our giving. Because tithing is integrally related to the land and the Sinai covenant, there are blessings and curses attached to it that it is inappropriate to carry over directly to our context. One result of such preaching is the tendency for people to be concerned that "If I split hairs too much over what I need to give, God will split hairs at me--if I give just enough, I might receive only just enough." Or alternatively, to boast that because they have tithed, the Lord has blessed them and their business.

There are important lessons to be derived from the OT tithe to be sure (again, see the e-book), but the focus of the NT is on a heart motivated by the superabundant grace of God that desires to excel in the grace of giving in return. It's the difference between a husband who asks "What's the minimum I need to spend on my wife's birthday present?" and a husband who seeks out the very best they can afford for their spouse. You can't get from law-driven giving to grace-driven giving: they are two entirely different things. But, equally, grace doesn't let us off the hook: it will be a rare occurrence for the former husband to outgive the latter.

What I'm saying is "Should I tithe on the gross or the net?" is a law-driven question. The person seeking to excel in the grace of giving will be so eager to give that the question doesn't even arise. If they have given 10% of the net and there is opportunity and ability to give more, then they will give more, even far more than 10% of the gross. But even then, they will reflect on how little they have given in comparison to the grace they have received.

I never said that it does...I said the concept of the tithe (period) predates the Mosaic Law. Whether that resembles the Levitical tithe does not concern me. What concerns me is whether the bare concept of giving God a tenth predates the Mosaic Law (which it does). The exact form it should take is up for debate, hence the question in the OP. The tithe was codified and took on a particular form in the Mosaic Law but the concept was by no means established by it.

For me, the tithe is an absolute minimum. It's like an automatic withdrawal...giving is a separate issue. Thus I distinguish between tithes and offerings. I don't expect to be blessed because I tithe, and I don't want to be blessed because I tithe. I am only doing what I ought to do, I deserve no reward for that.

As for whether my question is a law-driven question, I don't have any problems with that, Christ did not come to abolish the law. The law existed before Moses and the law exists after Moses, although of course certain ceremonial and civil aspects are now obsolete. I just don't think giving the Lord a tithe has been abolished.

Thank you for your e-book reference, I will consider reading that with my wife.

Thanks for taking time to respond, Prof. Duguid.

 

[alexanderjames]

we should also insist of the law of first dough (Num 15:18-21): whenever anyone in my congregation makes a loaf of bread (or a batch of brownies), the first piece must be given to the pastor.

Just wait till the pastors get wind of this..

 

[No Other Name]

Just wait till the pastors get wind of this..

Does anyone here know if Numbers 15:18-21 was used by medieval lords for first rights to a bride on the wedding night?

Or was that not really a thing? Did Braveheart lie to me? haha or was there some kind of horrific twisting of Scripture used to prey on commoners?