Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
Is evil a thing? or an absence of a thing?
I have heard before that evil is just the absence of God.
What do yall say?
I have heard before that evil is just the absence of God.
What do yall say?
What is evil?
- Thread starter Matthew1344
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Justified
Puritan Board Sophomore
Typically speaking, you speak of sin as either privation (a lack of) or negation (the opposite or negative of) God's law. To put it simply, falling short of God' s law, or doing what is diametrically opposed to it, constitutes sin. We often speak of negations in this way: UNrighteous, UNgodly, etc. (Emphasis on the negative prefix).
That was brief and much more could be said. Check out on YouTube RC Sproul origin of evil, and he has a couple videos that should introduce you to the problem.
whirlingmerc
Puritan Board Sophomore
In my opinion, the absence of God is not a helpful definition. It's close to forsaking God but not helpful since God is still present even in hell
"If there was a vote in hell who to kick out it would overwhelmingly be for God" RC SProul. God's wrath makes hell to be hell.
Some examples
Jeremiah 2:12-14English Standard Version (ESV)
12 Be appalled, O heavens, at this;
be shocked, be utterly desolate,
declares the Lord,
13 for my people have committed two evils:
they have forsaken me,
the fountain of living waters,
and hewed out cisterns for themselves,
broken cisterns that can hold no water.
14 “Is Israel a slave? Is he a homeborn servant?
Why then has he become a prey?
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree that God is in hell. It is him that makes it so terrible.
I believe that sin is trasgression agains Gods law. Both by not doing it or going against it.
Before sin existed, before the fall of satan, did evil exist?
If God doesnt change then that means that his glory doesnt change.
If his glory doesnt change then what is short of it has never changed.
So has "short of the glory of God" (evil) always existed?
I believe that sin is trasgression agains Gods law. Both by not doing it or going against it.
Before sin existed, before the fall of satan, did evil exist?
If God doesnt change then that means that his glory doesnt change.
If his glory doesnt change then what is short of it has never changed.
So has "short of the glory of God" (evil) always existed?
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
So, no? It hasn't always existed? Im sorry, i know it is my fault, I cant keep up with what you are saying.
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
All sin is evil, however all evil is not specifically sin.
Sin is the want of conformity unto, or transgression of the Law of God.
There is that which is evil which is not a transgression of the law of God.
The evils below are not transgressions of the Law of God.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil רַע which he thought to do unto his people.
Exo 33:4 And when the people heard these evil רַע tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments.
Num 13:19a And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or badרַע ....
Sin is the want of conformity unto, or transgression of the Law of God.
There is that which is evil which is not a transgression of the law of God.
The evils below are not transgressions of the Law of God.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil רַע which he thought to do unto his people.
Exo 33:4 And when the people heard these evil רַע tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments.
Num 13:19a And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or badרַע ....
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
yeah i dont think all evil is sin. That is why my original post did not say "has sin always existed" but "has evil always existed"?
So do you thin evil has always existed?
And what do you think evil is Benjamin?
Thanks for your input!
I always love learning from someone who knows hebrew!
So do you thin evil has always existed?
And what do you think evil is Benjamin?
Thanks for your input!
I always love learning from someone who knows hebrew!
Loopie
Puritan Board Freshman
As for my own two cents on the matter, I would simply say that we should take care not to think of evil in physical terms. That is, evil is not a 'thing' like a chair or a dog. Just like 'good' is not some piece of material matter floating out in space. Persons, actions, and events are good or evil. Actions are evil because of their purpose and intention. Persons are evil because of the things they do, believe, think, and desire. Events are evil because of their perceived results.
I do lean more towards Augustine's understanding of evil as being a twisting, privation, or lack of the good. God alone is good and everything that he created was originally good. At some point in the created order a part which was good became twisted and evil (Satan). In that way one could say that the 'potential' for evil actions always existed, but evil persons, evil actions, and evil events did not exist until Satan rebelled against the Most High.
I do lean more towards Augustine's understanding of evil as being a twisting, privation, or lack of the good. God alone is good and everything that he created was originally good. At some point in the created order a part which was good became twisted and evil (Satan). In that way one could say that the 'potential' for evil actions always existed, but evil persons, evil actions, and evil events did not exist until Satan rebelled against the Most High.
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
Is this true even though God himself is incapable of evil? God cannot do evil. Are you still going to say the the possibility for evil existed even before creation?
I am sorry if i am confusing anyone. I get very confused myself.
Another thought is this:
Has love always existed?
Yes
How?
God is love. God cannot change. He is eternal. Therefore love has always existed.
The problem i am having is applying this thinking to evil.
Has evil always existed?
Yes
How?
God is evil.
THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS TRUE!
What I am trying to understand though, is how can good have always existed without their being an evil? Because a standard of Good has always existed wouldnt a standard of evil have had to go along with it?
And if evil has always existed then it must have existed differently that good. But saying something "exists differently" makes me laugh because it sounds so mindless and rediculous.
Yes, i just insulted my own thinking haha.
Thanks to anyone who is taking the time and effort to help me.
Does 'Good' really need the privation of itself to exist? If we say "yes," it appears that we are adopting some sort of Zoroastrianism, or Taoist Yin and Yang, where opposites must always exist. In Christianity, we hold to the aseity of God. He doesn't need anything else to exist for Him to exist. I think this applies to Good, and Love as well.
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
I am wondering if Bruce can comment on the discussion? So far on PB, I find his comments really to help me.
Are you there Bruce?
Are you there Bruce?
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Not Bruce here.
But, Matt, to answer your question: no, evil is not a thing: it has no substantial, ontological existence.
Since God is good, evil can not have existed eternally, as has the good, which describes God's moral character. God's goodness is one of the moral attributes of God and is reflected in all that He made, which, upon contemplation, he said was "good," particularly man who was made in His image, whom he called "very good" (Genesis 1).
Satan, in rebelling against God, denied the good, and the denial of the good is evil. Evil is an ethical state of such denial and thus is the privation of the good. Adam was brought into this by giving way to the temptation of Satan in eating the forbidden fruit. When he ate that fruit, he was engaging in an ethical act of rebellion (Genesis 3). This is why we say that the Fall was not ontological but ethical. There was no substantial thing called evil that he embraced; rather, when he turned away from God and the good, it was in the denial of the good that he did that which was evil.
God is the only necessary Being. Thus only good exists eternally. Evil is the negation of that. In God's plan, He shows Himself to be such a great and good God that not only does evil not defeat Him (Gen. 50:20; Romans 8:28), but He uses it to bring about the greatest good, seen especially in the death of Christ, in which we witness the death of death for God's people.
He is so wise that He both uses and defeats evil to bring about our gaining more in Christ than we ever lost in Adam. The resplendent diamond of his love and grace can be seen more strikingly against the dark, felt background of our sin. This does not make evil necessary, but shows rather that nothing, including evil, can defeat Him.
Peace,
Alan
But, Matt, to answer your question: no, evil is not a thing: it has no substantial, ontological existence.
Since God is good, evil can not have existed eternally, as has the good, which describes God's moral character. God's goodness is one of the moral attributes of God and is reflected in all that He made, which, upon contemplation, he said was "good," particularly man who was made in His image, whom he called "very good" (Genesis 1).
Satan, in rebelling against God, denied the good, and the denial of the good is evil. Evil is an ethical state of such denial and thus is the privation of the good. Adam was brought into this by giving way to the temptation of Satan in eating the forbidden fruit. When he ate that fruit, he was engaging in an ethical act of rebellion (Genesis 3). This is why we say that the Fall was not ontological but ethical. There was no substantial thing called evil that he embraced; rather, when he turned away from God and the good, it was in the denial of the good that he did that which was evil.
God is the only necessary Being. Thus only good exists eternally. Evil is the negation of that. In God's plan, He shows Himself to be such a great and good God that not only does evil not defeat Him (Gen. 50:20; Romans 8:28), but He uses it to bring about the greatest good, seen especially in the death of Christ, in which we witness the death of death for God's people.
He is so wise that He both uses and defeats evil to bring about our gaining more in Christ than we ever lost in Adam. The resplendent diamond of his love and grace can be seen more strikingly against the dark, felt background of our sin. This does not make evil necessary, but shows rather that nothing, including evil, can defeat Him.
Peace,
Alan
Warren
Puritan Board Freshman
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." John 10:10
That's all I had to add.
Loopie
Puritan Board Freshman
Professor Strange said exactly what I meant to say, only he said it way better than I ever could!
jandrusk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I was simply trying to provide a definition of what evil is. I think what your asking is at what point in time did evil actually manifest itself; don't think anyone,but the Lord can answer that one. The potential existed as soon as God created creatures separate from himself that had a will to decide.
Matthew1344
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thanks for the input brothers!
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
I do not know Hebrew. I was simply showing how we often apply either an anachronistic definition or a definition too restrictive when using English words that are translated from Hebrew/Greek words in scripture. Multiple related Hebrew words are translated "evil" and those same Hebrew words are also rendered as many other English words. I speak only as a layman here.
In a very real sense, evil can be something unpleasant, disagreeable or displeasing. In another since it is wickedness. In totality it is a finite ill-favor of God. Finite, because it did not predate time, and has it also has an end in the sense that it will eventually cease absolutely to expand beyond the reprobate. All not in the lake of fire will be in God's favor, because Christ is in the Favor of the Father, and we in Christ. 1 Cor 3:23
When God "does evil" for example "...so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil..." it is the deserved ill-favor of God.
When man "does evil" it is an action that is out of God's favor. It is "wickedness" Wherefore he did evil
When an inanimate object is said to be evil it is an unfavorable thing. "but the water is evil" 2 Ki 2:19
It can be an action, or an adjective applied to an object, but it seems to me it is always a state that is out of favor with God.
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