Objectively evil is good

[john]

Semper Fidelis, (Administrator).

Are you telling me officially to stop discussing this subject?

Learn more about the Scriptures before you openly contradict what they actually teach. That God is not the author of sin is explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

If that is true why do you not use scripture to refute me?

john.

 

[john]

Hello PuritanCovenanter.

Also remember....Adam was created good. The creation was created good.

GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Hello DMcFadden.

In this area, the confessions are quite clear to affirm the absolute sovereignty of God AND to separate him from sin. That is the point of 3.1 in both the WCF and the LBCF.

I know.

Suggesting otherwise runs counter to the teaching of the confessions and settles the logical paradoxes at the cost of impugning the character of God.

No paradox exists to be unparadoxed does it?

I am here in particular for this discussion. Since I'm not sure if I've been told to shut up I will keep my answers short until I am told for sure whether I am allowed to speak or not.

God is Good, God is Sovereign and God created all things. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

I do not impugn the character of God by using scripture do I?

john.

 

[john]

Hello steve.

...as if good and evil is a law that transcends even God's sovereignty.

Whatever God does is good. He is bound by no law but His will is done.

God created vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath created themselves is a fine thing?
Some were made for noble purposes and the others made themselves for ignoble purposes. Two creators.

Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God declares double predestination and it is for us to believe it, surely?

PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

God creates sinners.

john.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Semper Fidelis, (Administrator).

Are you telling me officially to stop discussing this subject?

Learn more about the Scriptures before you openly contradict what they actually teach. That God is not the author of sin is explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

If that is true why do you not use scripture to refute me?

john.

I imagine it is because I'm not as erudite as you. Are you obnoxious in real life or do you just type that way? Your statements as presented thus far are sub-Biblical and un-Confessional. Your ability to quote a Scripture is not the same as being able to properly handle the Scriptures.

I'll let my corpus on this site speak for itself. It appears to me that the only reason you've lasted as long on this site as you have is that you've finally typed enough to demonstrate that you are not as Confessional as you claimed to be when you applied. You may attempt to extricate yourself but my Confessional credibility is not in question here.

Type more in the current direction to announce to me that you desire to leave the board.

 

[BJClark]

Evil is evil is evil, and can never be called good.

However, God certainly uses evil things to bring about good in the lives of those He loves. I only need look to my own life and see this truth.

When we act sinful to another or another acts sinful towards us, Satan desires to use that evil to destroy us, the relationship, break up a family, a church, destroy someone's reputation, yet God intends those things to grow people to be more like Himself, so they can help and encourage others who may go down that path later..

 

[john]

Semper Fidelis.

It appears to me that the only reason you've lasted as long on this site as you have is that you've finally typed enough to demonstrate that you are not as Confessional as you claimed to be when you applied.

As you can see I joined in 2004 and I am subject to change.

I have not hidden my faith nor have I acted to decieve. I thought my brothers and sisters would be kind enough to tolerate me but you will not?

Are you obnoxious in real life or do you just type that way?

I've hardly said enough for you to judge me so quickly have I? A lot of people don't like what I say, that's for sure.

Type more in the current direction to announce to me that you desire to leave the board.

Of course I will desist.
PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

NU 6:24 " ` "The LORD bless you
and keep you;

NU 6:25 the LORD make his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you;

NU 6:26 the LORD turn his face toward you
and give you peace." '


john.

 

[Pergamum]

Hello steve.

...as if good and evil is a law that transcends even God's sovereignty.

Whatever God does is good. He is bound by no law but His will is done.

God created vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath created themselves is a fine thing?
Some were made for noble purposes and the others made themselves for ignoble purposes. Two creators.

Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God declares double predestination and it is for us to believe it, surely?

PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

God creates sinners.

john.

John:


God creates sinners?




Okay, despite my pet peeve being folks calling only gross error heresy, I think I am ready to shout HERESY at this statement.

The statement that God creates sinners is not only gross error but is worse than errors of arminianism and dispensationalism... I believe that if you really believe this, then this falls into the category of damning heresy.



You blaspheme God and need to repent.

 

[regener8ed]

Are you sure about that Pergamum? Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

 

[Davidius]

Are you sure about that Pergamum? Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

Not to mention the potter analogy, which was mentioned above. He creates some vessels of wrath for dishonorable use. As someone relatively new to the reformed community who came here seeking consistency and refuge from appeals to mystery and irrationality, I sometimes am confused by what appears to me to be double-mindedness. We want to have our cake and eat it, too, presumably that we not push the Arminian too far away.

 

[stevestutz]

Unless good and evil is some sort of law that is above God, God allows evil, yes he must have created both good and evil. But the scriptures obviously state again and again that God detests evil, he is NOT evil, and that He wishes that his creation will be good.

Just because God creates and allows evil does not mean he is the AUTHOR of it. He did not create evil in order that he would be the center of it, the cornerstone of evil. He allows evil because he works all things according to his good pleasure. Evil only shows just how good God truly is, and only adds to the glory that he deserves.


"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will," -- Eph 1:11

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. -- Rom 9:14-18

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? -- Rom 9:19-21

 

[Davidius]

If by "author" one means that God himself is the one down here committing the sins, then of course he's not the author of evil. No one would say that. In spite of its clunkiness, I would prefer saying "the one who commits sin" to "author," since it is rarely defined and is surely the cause of much confusion - unless, of course some mean to say by "author" that God is not sin's first cause. But if God is the primary cause of everything (if everything comes to pass by God's decree), how can God not be the primary cause of evil? To say that God is the author of evil, when one means thereby that God is the first cause but not the agent, is not to attribute the act of sin to God himself, which is what some seem to be afraid of.

We have seen several passages of scripture which clearly show that God 1) creates "darkness" and "evil" 2) creates vessels of wrath 3) has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction. Other passages can be added to this, such as the place where God sends a lying spirit to deceive Saul. Let these passages be category A. We have also seen passages which tell us that God himself does not commit evil. Another passage I think of is the one in James which tells us that God does not tempt. Let such passages be category B. There is no contradiction between A and B. God may not tempt, but it is obvious that he ordains temptation. The lying spirit which deceived Saul is only one example. See Ezekiel 14:9 for another example, where God says that he has deceived the false prophets and will hence destroy them.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

James 1:13-15

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.


1Cr 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[Davidius]

I can do that, too.

The One forming light and creating darkness,Causing well-being and creating calamity;I am the LORD who does all these.

Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.

Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The LORD has declared disaster concerning you.

But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp.

When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

It would be more beneficial for us to attempt to reconcile the various teachings of scripture, which is what I was trying to do above. God is not the agent ("author", if you would prefer) of sin but must be the first cause, as he is the first cause of everything else.

 

[Hippo]

Hippo:

I think what you are saying is correct, but your wording may lead others astray. God uses evil for good, but evil is not good. All things work for good, but all things are not good in and of themselves. I am glad that you verfied that God is absolutely pure and could do no evil.

And, John, your statement, "God could only commit an evil act if He had created a law forbidding Himself from such an act.." is naive - the law springs forth from God's moral nature and is a reflection of that nature. God and his law are not someway loose of each other.



I am note sure what is being pushed for in this post. A practical ramification of God's sovereignty is that God uses all things for His glory and even when we suffer, God will use it for His glory and the good of the Christian.

But the post does not seem initially to be steered that way, but steered into some sloppy semantics of calling evil good.All Christians ought to oppose such statements as that.

I agree with you here, and at the very least some of the reactions caused by this thread show how dangerous these discusions can be. The Reformed often discuss and reconcile such difficult areas (let us not forget that election and reprobation are concepts seen as horific by the majority of the modern church) and it is always important that we are reminded of the boundaries of such discussions. Just like election it is also an area where trading seemingly oposing scripture quotes does not really help, we need to look at the full message of scripture.

Men and God see actions from different perspectives, evil is all part of God's plan that will work for his glory and on that note I will withdraw from this thread before I get shouted at by a moderator.

 

[stevestutz]

Hippo:
Men and God see actions from different perspectives, evil is all part of God's plan that will work for his glory and on that note I will withdraw from this thread before I get shouted at by a moderator.

That's a great way to word it. God is sovereign: omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Obviously he would see things differently than we do. Obviously he sees the past, present and future all at the same time. He sees, and knows all. We only see the present in light of our broken and imperfect recollection of the past. The Bible still keeps God's secrets secret. We only know so much

"12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." -- 1 Corinthians 13:12

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If by "author" one means that God himself is the one down here committing the sins, then of course he's not the author of evil. No one would say that. In spite of its clunkiness, I would prefer saying "the one who commits sin" to "author," since it is rarely defined and is surely the cause of much confusion - unless, of course some mean to say by "author" that God is not sin's first cause. But if God is the primary cause of everything (if everything comes to pass by God's decree), how can God not be the primary cause of evil? To say that God is the author of evil, when one means thereby that God is the first cause but not the agent, is not to attribute the act of sin to God himself, which is what some seem to be afraid of.

We have seen several passages of scripture which clearly show that God 1) creates "darkness" and "evil" 2) creates vessels of wrath 3) has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction. Other passages can be added to this, such as the place where God sends a lying spirit to deceive Saul. Let these passages be category A. We have also seen passages which tell us that God himself does not commit evil. Another passage I think of is the one in James which tells us that God does not tempt. Let such passages be category B. There is no contradiction between A and B. God may not tempt, but it is obvious that he ordains temptation. The lying spirit which deceived Saul is only one example. See Ezekiel 14:9 for another example, where God says that he has deceived the false prophets and will hence destroy them.

God being the primary cause of all things is not in question here David. That God ordains sin does not make Him the author thereof is what the issue is:

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeable ordain whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,2nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.3

1 EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 JAM 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1JO 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

3 ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. ACT 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. JOH 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. PRO 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

My rebuke against John is directed at a facile reading of certain texts that see God's ordaining of things as equivalent to removing the will of the creature or the contingency of secondary causes.

If the only thing that men here want us to agree upon is that God ordained sin along with every other thing that comes to pass then that is apparently obvious to the casual observer. What is not acceptable is a view of His ordination that places Him as the proximate agent of temptation.

As I stated earlier, some men are able to quote texts but they are not able to responsibly handle them. We have to take the full account of what the Scriptures say about both God's ordination of all things, temptation, man's agency, etc. There is such a thing as "good and necessary inference" and much of the inference in this thread has demonstrated the need for just that kind of inference.

 

[john]

What do you know about the way I handle scripture Semper Fidelis, you cut me off with threats almost before I started?

Just one remark concerning Pergamum then I'll crawl back under the stone again...

God is not the cause of sin. He uses sin, but never condones it but judges it. (post #15)

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

It was God that caused Pharaoh to refuse God's command.

john.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What do you know about the way I handle scripture Semper Fidelis, you cut me off with threats almost before I started?

Just one remark concerning Pergamum then I'll crawl back under the stone again...

God is not the cause of sin. He uses sin, but never condones it but judges it. (post #15)

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

It was God that caused Pharaoh to refuse God's command.

john.

You have demonstrated repeatedly a "prooftexting" handling of the Scriptures with no demonstration that you can marshall other texts on the same subject to present a full-orbed systematic presentation. This last post being the nail in the coffin - throw out a verse and then declare its full meaning in a single, inadequate sentence. No mature student of the Scriptures should be satisfied with such a presentation.

Come back to the board in the future if you ever decide you're Confessionally Reformed.

 

[Amazing Grace]

If by "author" one means that God himself is the one down here committing the sins, then of course he's not the author of evil. No one would say that. In spite of its clunkiness, I would prefer saying "the one who commits sin" to "author," since it is rarely defined and is surely the cause of much confusion - unless, of course some mean to say by "author" that God is not sin's first cause. But if God is the primary cause of everything (if everything comes to pass by God's decree), how can God not be the primary cause of evil? To say that God is the author of evil, when one means thereby that God is the first cause but not the agent, is not to attribute the act of sin to God himself, which is what some seem to be afraid of.

We have seen several passages of scripture which clearly show that God 1) creates "darkness" and "evil" 2) creates vessels of wrath 3) has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction. Other passages can be added to this, such as the place where God sends a lying spirit to deceive Saul. Let these passages be category A. We have also seen passages which tell us that God himself does not commit evil. Another passage I think of is the one in James which tells us that God does not tempt. Let such passages be category B. There is no contradiction between A and B. God may not tempt, but it is obvious that he ordains temptation. The lying spirit which deceived Saul is only one example. See Ezekiel 14:9 for another example, where God says that he has deceived the false prophets and will hence destroy them.

Here is an article that I found tremendously helpful on the subject. By posting the link I am not fully endorsing the person or the group, but when truth is spoken, it must be gleaned.

The Remnant

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Hello PuritanCovenanter.

Also remember....Adam was created good. The creation was created good.

GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Do I need to respond to this?

I hope not. This is so out there as far as a comeback or refutation. But I will attempt to make it easy for someone.

Adam's nature was created good. That was the context. God creating Eve to give someone to Adam for fellowship is not what this discussion was about. Sad hermeneutics. Sorry John. You are very confused and lost on how to determine context. And it shows.

Plus, if you knew anything about grace and God's working in man you would understand that God doesn't need to do anything to harden man's heart except remove his divine influence and presence from man. Man's heart is deplorable without God's influence and presence. His heart is hardened naturally when God removes himself from a man. God need not do anything active to make man wicked except remove his divine presence from a man.

God is Holy and Good.


Be Encouraged.