What is your Millennial Position?

What is your Millenial Position?

  • premillennial

    Votes: 9 7.7%
  • amillennial

    Votes: 86 73.5%
  • Postmillenial

    Votes: 22 18.8%

  • Total voters
    117
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A good question would be how many former pre-mills are now amill.

Let's face it, Dispensationalism has ruined the premillennial view. Many people may still lean towards a premill understanding, but they are so embarrased by the Dispensational crowd that they have moved to amillenialism out of pure shame. ;)



I don't want to recall a few chats I had back in the day with people trying to convince me of amill or other Reformed matters... :(

Gratitude is given to those who patiently and lovingly waited me out.
 
Bill nailed it. The premil view has a long and respectable history. Early church writers tended toward a naive premillennialism, unfettered by the distinctions and caveats of later writers, particularly the dispensational ones. Among the NT scholarly fraternity, premils often say that the "only reason" they continue to be premil is the difficulty of reading Rev. 20 otherwise.

Schreiner is the rare example of a fellow who moved from the amil to the premil camp, most go in the opposite direction. In fact, I have known a number of folks who have moved from the premil to amil camps (like me), but Schreiner is just about the only one I can remember moving in the opposite direction.

David, there are more premils on the PB than answered the survey. The real point of argument on PB typically concerns the differences between amil and postmil, even though the one is a subset of the other. Go figure. I guess we reserve our hottest rhetoric for those who differ from us yet are closest to us.
 
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Wow! Only 2 premillennial people on the whole board after two days of this thread being open!

If I had known that I would have never posted a thread asking for premillennial resources. I apologize. I didn't know ya'll were so anti premill. I certainly wasn't trying to start a stink. I honestly thought there were a lot of premil people here as well as the other views.

This is obviously not a forum for me to discuss eschatology in so I will refrain from that forever more on the PB and stick to things we have in common. I am interested in eschatology so I will discuss it in other places with premillennial people so I can grow in that area though.

What I've learned here on the Board, and what was not clear to me in the past is that,

Premillennialism assumes two resurrections, two separate events rather than the one event of the Westminster Standards (and that of the doctrine of Scripture).

Also, modern dispensational premillennialism assumes only a physical resurrections, that is "resurrection" means physical resurrection only. Reformed uses "resurrection" as BOTH spiritual (the first death) and physical (when bodies are resurrected at the Second coming).

Modern dispensational premillennialism is an extreme form of classical premillennialism, and the former is completely intertwined with dispensationalism, no way around it.

I would have been surprised too, in the not distant past....
 
Postmil. This survey seems to happen every six months on the PB.

I think postmillennialism sometimes suffers from some of its advocates over-exaggerating the nature of the Golden Age before Christ's return, when it would be more accurate to posit a Silver Age.

Heaven and the New Heavens and the New Earth will be Golden compared to the best of the postmillennial Silver Age.

E.g. True Christians will still struggle with their weight during the Silver Age.

Many Christians are already enjoying a Postmillennial lifestyle - in measure - even in our own day,

but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. (Micah 4:4, ESV)

although many believers don't.
 
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Among the NT scholarly fraternity, premils often say that the "only reason" they continue to be premil is the difficulty of reading Rev. 30 otherwise.

Yes, Revelation 30 has always proved a bit tricky exegetically . . . ;)
 
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I would say I am Amil, although I don't know if belief in a literal earthly kingdom of the Lord Jesus disqualify me as Amillennial.
 
Thanks. I understand. However, I'm not really in a position to really debate eschatology as I haven't spent as much time in it as I should, so in that thread I was actually just looking for older and wiser premils to give me some resources.

If you admit yourself that you haven't spent much time in the study of eschatology, do you really think you're in a position to take a defensive stance against premillennialism? I would ask why you are premillennial if you haven't given much study to eschatology? Instead of taking your ball and going home because everyone doesn't agree with you, this should encourage you to investigate why it is that the majority on this board hold to an amillennial position. Don't hold to your postion out of pride or tradition, but rather hold to a position because you have searched the scriptures and found it to be true. As others have already mentioned, you are most welcome to ask questions about eschatology. In fact I would encourage you to do so in order to better educate yourself. Again, just remember that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean it should be the end of the conversation. Blessings in your future studies brother.
 
I'm Amill. A good book to read is Kim Riddlebarger's "A case for amillennialism." and " amillennialism today" by William Cox. Kim Riddlebarger also did a great series on Amilliennialism which you can get free off his blog.
 
I would say I am Amil, although I don't know if belief in a literal earthly kingdom of the Lord Jesus disqualify me as Amillennial.

Christ is literally reigning on Earth as well as in Heaven:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Matt 28:18)

If you believe that Christ will make extensive and deep inroads by the work of His Spirit, Word, Church and Providence into the the squatting by the Devil and his minions in Christ's Kingdom, such that all nations are Christianised, then you are postmil.

Do you believe that India will one day be called a Christian nation? Or China? Or that the USA and Great Britain will be called Christian again?
 
If you believe that Christ will make extensive and deep inroads by the work of His Spirit, Word, Church and Providence into the the squatting by the Devil and his minions in Christ's Kingdom, such that all nations are Christianised, then you are postmil.

Even if you also believe that the millennium spans the entire church age?
 
If you believe that Christ will make extensive and deep inroads by the work of His Spirit, Word, Church and Providence into the the squatting by the Devil and his minions in Christ's Kingdom, such that all nations are Christianised, then you are postmil.

Even if you also believe that the millennium spans the entire church age?

I think most postmils believe this now, as far as I'm aware.

I suppose some might say that "the millennium proper" - the "Silver" or "Golden Age" - would begin with events such as the conversion of the Jews, the overthrow of the Roman Catholic Church, the end of state-sponsored persecution of Christians, or other events.

Both amil and postmil are postmil in orientation i.e. the Second Advent marks the end of the millennium. The difference between them is in what they say happens between now and the end.

Postmils say that the Bible teaches that the nations willl be Christianised, war will end, etc.

Some amils say that this might happen but they cannot be sure, while others deny it will happen.
 
It would take the providence of God to have this world end in nothing but a downward spiral of apostasy and hate towards Him and His church.

Have to wait and see what pans out over the next hour to the next 200,000 years of the planet.
 
-I believe that Christ is reigning on Earth as well as in Heaven right now and that is what I call his Heavenly reign, and that's what the book of Revelation describes as the Millennium.

-Regarding the Christianizing of the nations I can't say one way or the other, but I tend to the pessimistic side, I don't know exactly why (maybe tradition).

-I believe that at a particular point in time that the Bible calls "the day of the Lord", "the Last Day", "The end of the age", "that day", etc. the Lord Jesus will return and He will raise his elect from all the ages in the resurrection of the righteous; saints who are alive at that moment will be glorified and raised with the resurrected; the earth will be destroyed by several cataclysmic events that will culminate in fire coming down from Heaven. This will be followed by the judgment, and after the judgment death will be destroyed and the Lord Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father and they will reign for all eternity over the glorified or renewed Earth (the New Earth), and we will be kings (or governors maybe) over nations and cities, and this will be the ultimate fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies regarding the coming kingdom of the Messiah.
 
I was Dispensational Pre-mil the early part of my ministry due to former indoctrination and Seminary training. My thesis I had to right in Seminary was on that position. However, shortly after graduation I came to my senses and took the Scriptures for what I believed they clearly taught. The name for that position was called Amillennialism. Ironically, I also became a Calvinist.
 
I moved from Pretrib Premil => Prewrath Premil => Historic Premil => Amil. After being frustrated with doing my best to justify a Premil understanding I set aside the study of eschatology altogether. About a year latter while discussing the Premil coming of Christ with someone I realized the position just didn't make all that much sense.

jm

Yeah, that's pretty much me as well. And since we're not saved by our eschatological stance in this matter, I don't make too much of a a big deal about it, provided I don't run into a militant premil or postmil person.
 
What do Amils have . . . nerdy seminary professors with European family names and a lot of "I don't knows." Man, what a ripoff.

:rofl:

I was a dispo pre-mill. Now I am an Amil.

For information: there are actually two postmills: the classical version that posit a future millennial golden age. And the optimistic amill that confusedly call themselves postmills...:)
 
Pre Mil. Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist

I love Macarthur as much as anyone, but in this area he is a dispensationalist through and through.

I am premil after having been amil for a good many years.

It's been a while since I listened to MacArthur's message. I may have forgotten it, but I don't remember if he specifically stated that consistent Calvinists should be dispensationalists or pretrib, although the latter of course are his views.

His essential point is not new and was basically made by certain Reformed premils in the 19th Century. I'm thinking particularly of Hortaius Bonar's criticism of Patrick Fairbairn's interpretation of OT prophecy, among other things. MacArthur made reference to Bonar in one of the messages (he gave 3 more messages on the subject at Grace Church following the Shepherd's Conference message and I think the Bonar reference was in one of those) and noted that he has always identified more with certain Scottish Presbyterians (a good many of whom were premil by the 19th Century) as opposed to the Continental Reformed, who have typically been as hostile to any form of premillennialism as Lutherans have been.

As I understand it, MacArthur's basic point relates to unconditional election, with the argument being that if what he sees as the unconditional promises made to Israel in the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants can be annulled then so can New Covenant promises.

The idea that there will be a restoration of national Israel (both spiritually and to the land) doesn't necessitate pretribulationism or dispensationalism. (It may not even necessitate premillennialism at all. I think some postmils have believed that or something similar, although it's rarer to come across postmils who believe anything like that today. I think Erroll Hulse may be a contemporary example of a postmil who believes something along those lines.) A lot of older covenant premils like Spurgeon, Bonar and Ryle believed that.

The first time I read some of J.C. Ryle's writings on prophecy even though I knew that he wasn't dispensational I thought he came across like a dispensationalist with his emphasis on restoration/regathering as well as a future conversion of Israel, but that was largely due to my ignorance of the older premillennialism and my assumption that any talk of a restoration of national Israel, particularly as a national/political entity, was a dispensational distinctive. Here are a couple of excerpts from a couple of Spurgeon sermons that I think may surprise some Spurgeon admirers (as well as those who are only familiar with the Ladd variety of "historic premil") in his ardent belief of a future restoration/regathering as well as a future conversion of the Jews:

First, THERE IS TO BE A POLITICAL RESTORATION OF THE JEWS. Israel is now blotted out from the map of nations. Her sons are scattered far and wide. Her daughters mourn beside all the rivers of the earth. Her sacred song is hushed—no king reigns in Jerusalem! She brings forth no governors among her tribes. But she is to be restored! She is to be restored “as from the dead.” When her own sons have given up all hope of her, then is God to appear for her. She is to be reorganized—her scattered bones are to be brought together. There will be a native government again. There will again be the form of a political body.
A State shall be incorporated and a king shall reign. Israel has now become alienated from her own land. Her sons, though they can never forget the sacred dust of Palestine, yet die at a hopeless distance from her consecrated shores. But it shall not be so forever, for her sons shall
again rejoice in her—her land shall be called Beulah—for as a young man marries a virgin so shall her sons marry her. “I will place you in your own land,” is God’s promise to them. They shall again walk upon her mountains, shall once more sit under her vines and rejoice under her fig trees! And they are also to be reunited. There shall not be two, nor ten, nor twelve, but one—one Israel praising one God—serving one king and that one King the Son of David, the descended Messiah! They are to have a national prosperity which shall make them famous. No, so glorious shall they be that Egypt and Tyre and Greece and Rome shall all forget their glory in the greater splendor of the throne of David! The day shall yet come when all the high hills shall leap with envy because this is the hill which God has chosen! The time shall come when Zion’s shrine shall again be visited by the constant feet of the pilgrim—when her valleys shall echo with songs and her hilltops shall drop with wine and oil. If there is meaning in words this must be the meaning of this chapter! [Ezekiel 37] I wish never to learn the art of tearing God’s meaning out of His own Words. If there is anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—it must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land and that a king is to rule over them. “Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen where they are gone and will gather them on every side and bring them into their own land: and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king to them all. And they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.”
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols10-12/chs582.pdf

The hour is approaching when the tribes shall go up to their own country, when Judea, so long a howling wilderness, shall once more blossom like the rose. Then, if the Temple, itself, is not restored, yet on Zion’s hill shall be raised some Christian building where the chants of solemn praise shall be heard, as of old the Psalms of David were sung
in the Tabernacle. Not long shall it be before they shall come—shall come from distant lands, wherever they rest or roam. And she who has been the off-scouring of all things, whose name has been a proverb and a byword, shall become the glory of all lands! Dejected Zion shall raise her head, shaking herself from dust, darkness and the dead. Then shall the Lord feed His people and make them and the places round about His hill a blessing. I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible, it is this. I imagine that you cannot read the Bible without seeing clearly that there is to be an actual restoration of the children of Israel. “There they shall go up. They shall come with weeping unto Zion and with supplications unto Jerusalem.” May that happy day soon come! For when the Jews are restored, then the fullness of the Gentiles shall be gathered in. And as soon as they return, then Jesus will come upon Mount Zion to reign with His ancients gloriously and the halcyon days of the Millennium shall then dawn. We shall then know every man to be a brother and a friend. Christ shall rule with universal sway!
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols1-3/chs28.pdf

I don't see how the above (and many more similar quotes could be provided from Spurgeon and other covenantal premils of his era) is anything other than futuristic premillennialism, which does not necessarily equate with dispensationalism. All dispensationalists are futurists but not all futurists are dispensationalists. (Errol Hulse (and perhaps Iain Murray as well If I recall correctly?) misread the above and some other quotes on the restoration and conversion of the Jews to mean that Spurgeon was a Puritan postmil as he is, but elsewhere Spurgeon makes his premillennialism plain.)

Historic premillennialism today is largely defined by Ladd's work and as Dennis notes above, hardly differs from amillennialism in many respects. This is particularly so with regard to the interpretation of OT prophecy. In that sense it's really not so "historic" at all.
 
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As I understand it, MacArthur's basic point relates to unconditional election, with the argument being that if what he sees as the unconditional promises made to Israel in the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants can be annulled then so can New Covenant promises.

The idea that there will be a restoration of national Israel (both spiritually and to the land) doesn't necessitate pretribulationism or dispensationalism. (It may not even necessitate premillennialism at all. I think some postmils have believed that or something similar, although it's rarer to come across postmils who believe anything like that today. I think Erroll Hulse may be a contemporary example of a postmil who believes something along those lines.) A lot of older covenant premils like Spurgeon, Bonar and Ryle believed that.

This is all covered by traditional postmillennialism. The Israel of God (Gal 6:16) in the New Covenant is expanded to include both believing Jews and Gentiles (professing Jews and Gentiles and their children in its administration). Most of "Israel-after-the-flesh" has been cut out of the Israel of God apart from a remnant, but the Lord indicates that they are not completely forgotten and will be reingrafted into the Commonwealth of Israel, along with all nations at some point in history (e.g.Rom 11)

The geographical scope of God's Kingdom is also expanded from the Land of Israel at its widest to include not only the Land of Israel but also the whole Earth (e.g. Ps 72).

The Israel of God is to take possession of the Earth - including the Land of Israel-Palestine by the Holy War of evangelisation. At some point "Israel after the flesh" will be reingrafted into the Israel of God.

If God wishes in His providence to permit unbelieving and believing Jews to return to what was once the Holy Land then that is His decretive will. The Jews can only plead general historical and political reasons for their possession of the Land - rather than arguing from the Bible that God gave them everything from the Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt and from the East Bank of the Jordan to the Medi, because their and the land's status has changed in the New Covenant period.

If most of the Jews in Israel were Christians they would at least be able to say that they had repented, but the arguments about the land shouldn't be conducted on such a basis as it is theologically wrong-headed. The Church is the Israel of God and the whole Earth is the sphere of redemption (e.g. Matt 5:5).

The fact that the Apostle Paul says that the Jews are beloved because they are the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and because our Lord came from them, implies a general benevolence to them from Christians, but the extreme philosemitism that will not say a bad thing about a Jew or Jews, the Israeli government or army, or the state of Israel, or would posit another way of salvation for the Jews, is excluded along with antisemitism.
 
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I am Amil.... But let me add this as I have posted this in the other thread.

I would say this concerning a few of the differing views you mention in the above. They are not like the PreMil position and have a commonality. They only have the Lord returning physically once and the Lord is reigning and having dominion from heaven till he does return. The Premil has him returning twice which in my view distorts his work of redemption and the gospel of the Kingdom. And now, for the rest of the story?

Just my 2 cents. And I think they are pretty big pennies.
 
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