Why Secular Music?

[JBaldwin]

We are so picky about the words we sing when we worship, and we must be. For the EP folks, we are committed to only singing the Psalms, and to the rest of us, we are still very concerned about the doctrine we sing. We don't want to put anything into worship which is contrary to God's Word. I am heartily behind these viewpoints.

Setting aside the obvious reason for being so dogmatic about singing which is that we are in corporate worship of the living God, why do we allow other corrupted music into our lives? And before you think I am going legalistic on you, please hear me out.

There is another reason why are so dogmatic about what we sing in worship. It is this--"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." (Col 3:16) Regardless of your viewpoint on the interpretation of "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs", there is another aspect, and it is "teaching and admonishing one another". We sing because we are commanded to teach and admonish one another. Another way to put this would be, singing is a mode of teaching and admonishing, and we are commanded to use this mode in worship.

Given that idea that singing teaches (and this is the view of many musicians, both christian and non-christian), why do we allow ourselves to be "taught" by secluar music during the week? I am not speaking about style here, but about lyrics. As a musician, I sometimes struggle with this.

Any thoughts?

 

[Herald]

Sister, I think you've touched on a sensitive topic. For those who hold to the RPW and EP, worship must contain what scripture positively allows. But outside of worship Christian liberty abounds, even in venues that are downright ungodly. I have seen music videos posted on this board of groups that are the antithesis of righteousness. Still, "I have liberty!" I can appreciate the RPW and the EP positions, but shouldn't the Lord's Day worship reflect in our daily lives? In other words, why is there regulation in worship but an almost antinomian backlash Monday through Friday? I say this to my own shame as my sanctification is an ongoing process that reveals my wretchedness daily.

P.S. and may I add that I am not singling anybody out for their taste in music, reading or recreation. I only used the music video comment because music is reflective of our culture and is an easy target to pick on.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[Herald]

Coward!

 

[Davidius]

I am not EP because of musical content. That is an argument often used but it is fundamentally pragmatic and doesn't necessitate EP. Songs with good teaching can be found outside the Psalter. I am hence EP because of my understanding of the regulative principle. in my opinion The question is a non sequitur and doesn't really apply to anyone who is EP for the right reasons. One could still ask whether certain songs are appropriate to listen to during the week, but that is not logically dependent on one's EP status.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Coward!

My views on music inside and outside of worship are well known. No need to add my

 

[Coram Deo]

I think I am going to stay out of this one this time... Just not feeling too well to keep up a discussion... Besides my views on music outside of worship are already well known and infamous on the board....

So back to reading....

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

 

[JBaldwin]

The question has nothing to do with worship. It has to do with what we are singing and listening to the rest of the week. Let me put it another way. Why should we as Christians allow our minds to be filled with junk 6 days a week?

 

[Herald]

Sorry. I saw a natural connection to worship in the question. Considering our week begins on the Lord's Day, it sets the tone for what follows.

 

[Davidius]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, ma'am. You mentioned EP and then segued into guarding worship content and then guarding our minds during the week. I was merely saying that EP is not fundamentally done to keep away from bad influences in worship, though that is a nice benefit. The way you phrased it just now was much clearer, to me at least.

 

[Coram Deo]

Split Thread: Can Musical Notes, Arrangements, and Beats Be Inherently Evil?

As I already stated my views are well known...

But I will say I agree with you.. Why should we allow our minds be filled with junk, both lyrical and melody that are junk and I will go so far as to say sinful...

Of course I also said I did not want to get into a huge discussion and I probably already opened a door for that to happen....





I Recommend "Measuring the Music" or The Battle for Christian Music".

The question has nothing to do with worship. It has to do with what we are singing and listening to the rest of the week. Let me put it another way. Why should we as Christians allow our minds to be filled with junk 6 days a week?

 

[Hippo]

Its all about the context.

The weekly act of communal worship demands that we adhere to the RPW in that context, and that means EP.

If I want to sing to myself in the week I will sing what I like, religious or secular, the same with music that I listen to.

What I like is of course a product of my Christian worldview, but you cannot really seperate into religious and seculer. Everything a Christian does is in some sense religious, even if that includes singing a secular song.

We are taught by many things, especially by things that we do not necessarily agree with. Secular things are not neceassarily evil, they are just things.

 

[Herald]

Its all about the context.

The weekly act of communal worship demands that we adhere to the RPW in that context, and that means EP.

If I want to sing to myself in the week I will sing what I like, religious or secular, the same with music that I listen to.

What I like is of course a product of my Christian worldview, but you cannot really seperate into religious and seculer. Everything a Christian does is in some sense religious, even if that includes singing a secular song.

We are taught by many things, especially by things that we do not necessarily agree with. Secular things are not neceassarily evil, they are just things.

Secular things are not necessarily evil, but they can be evil. Vowels and consonants are not inherently evil, but used to utter perverse and blasphemous words they can be evil. If you enjoy singing "I Once was and Ugly Duckling" to yourself during the week, fine. But if you enjoy Areosmith's, "Walk this Way" you have to convince yourself that the lyrics are amoral. If nothing else it should give us pause to think.

 

[TaylorOtwell]

The question has nothing to do with worship. It has to do with what we are singing and listening to the rest of the week. Let me put it another way. Why should we as Christians allow our minds to be filled with junk 6 days a week?

We shouldn't. I once was told an old Scottish brother said that Christians must have "Finished with the world." written across their lives. May the Lord help us to be so...

 

[JBaldwin]

One more clarification, and I apologize for the confusion, I was in and out after I wrote the second post. I used the example of Colossians 3:16, because it is an example of using music for the purpose of teaching, not because of RPW or EP or any other conviction about worship.

In the 1960s, when we were at war in Vietnam, public school choir directors were having the children sing "What the World Needs Now is Love" to push their anti-war agenda. Rock bands use their lyrics to push their viewpoints on the world. Even the OCP hymn mentioned in a recent post is an example of using music to teach something.

Based on that--is it right for us to allow ourselves to be taught with lyrics that are ungodly? When one day a week, we piously (and I have to admit I'm just as guilty) allow our minds to be filled with God's Word through song, and then listen and sing trash the rest of the week?

This wonderful Psalm comes to mind:
1:1 Blessed is the man [1]
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law [2] of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

3 He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.
4 The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.

5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.

 

[JBaldwin]

Sister, I think you've touched on a sensitive topic. For those who hold to the RPW and EP, worship must contain what scripture positively allows. But outside of worship Christian liberty abounds, even in venues that are downright ungodly. I have seen music videos posted on this board of groups that are the antithesis of righteousness. Still, "I have liberty!" I can appreciate the RPW and the EP positions, but shouldn't the Lord's Day worship reflect in our daily lives? In other words, why is there regulation in worship but an almost antinomian backlash Monday through Friday? I say this to my own shame as my sanctification is an ongoing process that reveals my wretchedness daily.

P.S. and may I add that I am not singling anybody out for their taste in music, reading or recreation. I only used the music video comment because music is reflective of our culture and is an easy target to pick on.

Bill,

Though it didn't completely answer my question, you still hit upon a part of the thought I was thinking.

 

[JBaldwin]

One more thought: What about what we let our teenagers listen to?

 

[panta dokimazete]

Well - I think you are making a strong distinction between what is acceptable outside of corporate worship.

"Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

If you are indeed convinced that all secular music without exception is trash, then you certainly should not listen to it.

But if you are convinced that listening to some non-Christ dishonoring secular music outside corporate worship (and perhaps not on the Sabbath) is allowed, then I would say that is allowed within the expression of Christian liberty - just as reading some secular books are allowed.

 

[JBaldwin]

Well - I think you are making a strong distinction between what is acceptable outside of corporate worship.

"Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

If you are indeed convinced that all secular music without exception is trash, then you certainly should not listen to it.

But if you are convinced that listening to some non-Christ dishonoring secular music outside corporate worship (and perhaps not on the Sabbath) is allowed, then I would say that is allowed within the expression of Christian liberty - just as reading some secular books are allowed.

We do have Christian liberty, and I don't have a problem listening or enjoying things that are not specifically Christian. Again, I go back to lyrics. As Bill mentioned, there is nothing wrong with letters of the alphabet, but sometimes they can be put together to make bad words. That is in line with my thinking.

I believe when it comes to music, especially, we should be considering what the music is teaching us, and how that will impact our thinking and the thinking of our children. Music is a different medium, say, than books, but that is another discussion.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The title of the thread refers to "secular music" -- perhaps this could be the defined for us. However, the OP and following posts seem to focus not on secular music (in fact secular music is condoned in post #21), per se, but rather "junk" and "corrupted" music. It would probably help the discussion to clarify which categories this thread is really about and what is meant by the terms, perhaps with examples.

 

[JBaldwin]

OK, back on topic

Someone wanted me to define what I meant by "secular". I meant anything that is not Bible-based and used appropriate for worship on the Lord's Day.

What I should probably have titled this thread is this. "Why listen to ungodly music?"

Not all secular music is ungodly, but there is so much music that is openly teaching ungodly truths, I question why do we teach ourselves with scriptural music on the Lord's Day and then from Mon-Sat. teach ourselves with ungodly music?

I hope that clarifies some questions.

 

[Sonoftheday]

What I should probably have titled this thread is this. "Why listen to ungodly music?"

Not all secular music is ungodly, but there is so much music that is openly teaching ungodly truths, I question why do we teach ourselves with scriptural music on the Lord's Day and then from Mon-Sat. teach ourselves with ungodly music?

I dont think a christian can find enjoyment in Ungodly music without being disgusted. I listen to ungodly music on occassion for the philosphical knowledge contained within the music, but find little entertainment therein. For instance a few months ago both my little brother and one of my best friends were raving about the new Kid Rock album, an artist I deemed as ungodly a while ago due to his constant blaspheming and sexual/drug promotion. I borrowed the album from my brother and listened to it then got on the internet and read the lyrics, It was totaly ungodly in promoting a false view of God, a disrespect for authority, and sexual promiscuity. I do not believe that my viewing of this music breaks God's law anymore than when one reads the Book of Morman to better understand the morman, however if I was somehow engrossed in and finding enjoyment in the blasphemy, and promotion of sin that is Kid Rock then I would undoubtably be in sin. Not only in that area, but this sin would also lead to sin in other areas of my life.

To put it shortly, a christian cannot fill thier minds with ungodly music and walk away unscathed.

 

[Herald]

OK, back on topic

Someone wanted me to define what I meant by "secular". I meant anything that is not Bible-based and used appropriate for worship on the Lord's Day.

What I should probably have titled this thread is this. "Why listen to ungodly music?"

Not all secular music is ungodly, but there is so much music that is openly teaching ungodly truths, I question why do we teach ourselves with scriptural music on the Lord's Day and then from Mon-Sat. teach ourselves with ungodly music?

I hope that clarifies some questions.

And here is where Christian liberty becomes a sticky wicket. All of us on this board are confessional (or else we wouldn't be here). We are quick to point to the confessions in order to settle or clarify a matter. Even the EP'er will claim support from the WCF. Outside of the confessions we claim liberty. Okay, so there is a request to separate ungodly music from secular music. There is no standard for this categorization. It does present a quandary. I will inject a scripture for consideration.

Ephesians 4:29 29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

The word for unwholesome means rotten or worthless. Paul is writing about words spoken, but couldn't this easily be applied to what we allow into our minds?

I'm not drawing a dogmatic conclusion. I will not tell another man, "Listen to this but not that." But I will draw reference to my first post in this thread about worship. Worship is not just for the Lord's Day. All of life is worship, just as Luther wrote, "All of life is repentance." We are children of God, and walk in the light (1 John 1:5-7). As children of light it is impossible for us to walk in darkness. Seeing as we cannot walk in darkness, should we not cast aside all the deeds of darkness? If the deeds, the darkened mindset too (2 Corinthians 5:17)? My struggles in this area are due to the fact that I too often see the Lord's Day as something completed. Instead of a great crescendo of worship it becomes a culmination of the old week. I naturally struggle with that and need to remind myself that corporate worship is a reflection of my private worship and vice versa. If God is truly the object of my worship I should want all that I do, including my taste in music, to be to the honor and praise of His glory.

 

[kvanlaan]

Why should we as Christians allow our minds to be filled with junk 6 days a week?

We shouldn't. I know that and will argue it until I'm blue in the face. But come over to my house during the week and listen for a while. There is a LOT of 'Christian' music (and sermons and WHI) but far too much secular as well (though it is a very small percentage by comparison.) Some lyrics may be amoral, but how can we truly 'enjoy' what is produced by the world - I can't imagine that it has no effect on us whatsoever (and what viewpoints and attitudes it may be implanting in me long-term concerns me).

Reminds me of a term I learned in a (very basic) computer class in college: GIGO - garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Herald]

Folks, gentle reminder. Back to the premise of the OP please.

 

[bookslover]

We are so picky about the words we sing when we worship, and we must be. For the EP folks, we are committed to only singing the Psalms, and to the rest of us, we are still very concerned about the doctrine we sing. We don't want to put anything into worship which is contrary to God's Word. I am heartily behind these viewpoints.

Setting aside the obvious reason for being so dogmatic about singing which is that we are in corporate worship of the living God, why do we allow other corrupted music into our lives? And before you think I am going legalistic on you, please hear me out.

There is another reason why are so dogmatic about what we sing in worship. It is this--"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." (Col 3:16) Regardless of your viewpoint on the interpretation of "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs", there is another aspect, and it is "teaching and admonishing one another". We sing because we are commanded to teach and admonish one another. Another way to put this would be, singing is a mode of teaching and admonishing, and we are commanded to use this mode in worship.

Given that idea that singing teaches (and this is the view of many musicians, both christian and non-christian), why do we allow ourselves to be "taught" by secluar music during the week? I am not speaking about style here, but about lyrics. As a musician, I sometimes struggle with this.

Any thoughts?

As to exposing ourselves to secular music, we Christians are privileged to use biblical discernment - our sanctified common sense. If the lyrics appear to be offensive - turn it off, or put on something else.

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

What I should probably have titled this thread is this. "Why listen to ungodly music?"

What is "ungodly music?" What makes a piece of music, or a song ungodly? What is the determining factor by which we should make that kind of judgment?

 

[Herald]

What I should probably have titled this thread is this. "Why listen to ungodly music?"

What is "ungodly music?" What makes a piece of music, or a song ungodly? What is the determining factor by which we should make that kind of judgment?

Using lyrics as one barometer, I don't think it takes a focus group to figure out what is ungodly. Earlier in the thread I referenced an Aerosmith song, "Walk This Way." Read the lyrics and you tell me.

 

[historyb]

This is an interesting thread. I usually listen to OTR during the week, the shadow, Six Shooter and Glen Miller when I am programming.