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[quote:cc1f93afec][i:cc1f93afec]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:cc1f93afec]
Where is it defined in our constitution that the US should be the playground monitor of the entire world?

Why should we prop up an anti-Christian government on the pretext that it is a "democracy"? Does the fact that one pagan country has a particular form of government make it more desirable than other pagan countries with different forms of government?

I think we make too big a deal out of this democracy thing. Democracy is not the only legitimate (biblical) form of civil government. Democracy clearly does not work for certain societies. In fact several of our founding fathers warned it it was only meant for a Christian (not Judeo-Christian) people, those who could be self-governed by biblical standards (one reason why our society is failing today).

The biggerst foreign policy mistake of this country is to try and take "democracy" around the world and force it on other countries with the hope they will all play like good little boys. [/quote:cc1f93afec]

Amen - especially with regard to your last sentence, Tom. We say we want to rescue other countries from foreign coercion, only to then try and coerce our own form of government on them.

[quote:cc1f93afec][i:cc1f93afec]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:cc1f93afec]
What about this?

Romans 15:27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. [/quote:cc1f93afec]

But Israel has [i:cc1f93afec]not[/i:cc1f93afec] been "partakers of [our] spiritual things," for they deny Christ just as much as does Islam or Buddhism.

In Christ,

Chris
 
[quote:deb72bbf68][i:deb72bbf68]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:deb72bbf68]
I'm with Adam here. The history of the Netherlands is significant for me. During WWII many Dutch helped out the Jewish people, not just because they were oppressed, not just because they were singled out, but because they were dingled out for oppression because of what they stood for. They wer yet the race of God's OT people, and did not deserve that kind of treatment at the hands of man. Even if it was God's judgment, it was our Christian duty at the same time to aid. So they do hold some spiritual significance for us.

Even on the pragmatic side, the mid-east is a strategic spot, economically and militarily; and America has no choice but to have a vested interest in things there. It is her responsibility to the world to do so. Clearly not for Dispensational reasons.

I also don't like the idea of cutting off all foreign aid. A rich country must be benevolent with it wealth, or risk losing it providentially.

But I'm Canadian. It's not like we don't live in a glass house. [/quote:deb72bbf68]

The Dutch helped Jews living in their own country, or perhaps Jews that came into the Netherlands. Perhaps my history is a bit off, but I believe the principle involved did not single out the Jews because of special favor with God. I believe the Dutch would have done the same had the group in question been Mennonites. It was an application of the biblical principle of protecting the "stranger within your gates". It does not matter what the ethnic or religious background of that stranger may be.

And let's make the distinction between individuals within a rich nation using their (relative) wealth to help people in other countries, which they are free to do, and the government of a supposedly rich country using confiscated taxes to help others. It's not the government's job to be compassionate with my money.
 
[quote:6ee1efffcd][i:6ee1efffcd]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:6ee1efffcd]
What about this?

Romans 15:27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. [/quote:6ee1efffcd]

Adam,

With all due respect it's called pulling a verse out of context.

Rom. 15 is speaking of gentile Christians helping jewish Christians in a specific situation. It's also speaking of the church helping its own. It would be analagous to a sending church that has fallen on hard times receiving help from a daughter church that God has prospered materially.

It is not speaking of a "gentile" government helping a "jewish" government, whatever they might be.
 
[quote:8a5d2991e1][i:8a5d2991e1]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:8a5d2991e1]
[quote:8a5d2991e1][i:8a5d2991e1]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:8a5d2991e1]
What about this?

Romans 15:27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. [/quote:8a5d2991e1]

Adam,

With all due respect it's called pulling a verse out of context.

Rom. 15 is speaking of gentile Christians helping jewish Christians in a specific situation. It's also speaking of the church helping its own. It would be analagous to a sending church that has fallen on hard times receiving help from a daughter church that God has prospered materially.

It is not speaking of a "gentile" government helping a "jewish" government, whatever they might be. [/quote:8a5d2991e1]

:amen: Tom...you beat me to the punch on that one!

Grace,
Dwayne
 
Adam,
I have no problem with the idea that we help Israel because of who we are, America, as a nation. Other than that, it has nothing to do with anything else!

The question remains, is America a Christian nation?

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
[quote:4675c6a8a7][i:4675c6a8a7]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:4675c6a8a7]
What about a Christian Nation helping a Jewish one? [/quote:4675c6a8a7]

First of all there are no "Jewish" or "Christian" nations, at least not presently. There are countries where Jews and Christians live. That doesn't make the nation either.

Second, it depends on what you mean by helping.

I believe it is OK for one nation to sell aid and arms to another country that is facing attack. It would be analogous to me selling a handgun to my neighbor to he can protect his family.

I do not believe it is OK for one nation to tax their citizens to pay for the protection of another nation. A handout is not necessarily helping.

If a nation does not have the financial wherewithal to pay to protect itself, then perhaps it has no business being a sovereign nation. It could become a protectorate with ultimate governing authority being with the sponsoring nation. That way the citizens would have the full rights and privileges of the sponsor.
 
[quote:7df7123b6c][i:7df7123b6c]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:7df7123b6c]
Israel is not a Jewish Nation?

I am not looking for debate guys, I have just never heard that one before. [/quote:7df7123b6c]

In a modern sense, perhaps. In the biblical sense, no, it isn't.
 
[quote:61339e4340][i:61339e4340]Originally posted by tcalbrecht[/i:61339e4340]
[quote:61339e4340][i:61339e4340]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:61339e4340]
Israel is not a Jewish Nation?

I am not looking for debate guys, I have just never heard that one before. [/quote:61339e4340]

In a modern sense, perhaps. In the biblical sense, no, it isn't. [/quote:61339e4340]

And even if it was, that wouldn't make it any more in line with God's will today than if it was a Muslim nation.

Chris
 
Adam, surely you acknowledge that if it's principles and not pragmatics we're talking here, a Jewish nation is no closer to God's will today than is a Muslim nation, for they both equally deny the One Christ.

In Christ,

Chris
 
Sure, no problem there.

It just seems blatently obvious (no offense) that we should support Israel. They and their Islamic neighbors my deny Christ but Israel is the better friend and much closer to us politically.

I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures. Didn't even a dumb donkey know that?
 
[quote:9ceae8c670][i:9ceae8c670]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:9ceae8c670]
Sure, no problem there.

It just seems blatently obvious (no offense) that we should support Israel. They and their Islamic neighbors my deny Christ but Israel is the better friend and much closer to us politically.

[/quote:9ceae8c670]

I have no problem with supporting any political friend. That doesn't man we should give away our children's future and fortune in foreign aid to such "friends".

[quote:9ceae8c670]
I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures. Didn't even a dumb donkey know that? [/quote:9ceae8c670]

What do you mean by the term "literal Israel"? I suspect there is some baggage here that needs to be unpacked.

There is biblical Israel and there is modern Israel. The two are not the same. Biblical Israel no longer exists.
 
[quote:c9aeb5ab84][i:c9aeb5ab84]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:c9aeb5ab84]
My theology will never cause me to stop backing Israel. [/quote:c9aeb5ab84]

But what is your "gut" reason for doing so? By going so far as to say, "I also happen to believe that literal Israel is to be blessed and not cursed according to scriptures," you [i:c9aeb5ab84]really[/i:c9aeb5ab84] make me suspicious of there still being some "Dispensational blood" in you (no offense). Tell me how you collectively interpret the following verses: Matt. 3:9, Luke 19:9-10, John 8:39-41, Acts 15:8-9, Rom. 2:28-29, Rom. 4:11-12, Rom. 4:17-18, Rom. 9:6-7, Rom. 15:8-9, 1 Cor. 1:22-24, Gal. 3:7-9, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 3:28-29, Eph. 2:11-22, Heb. 8:13 and 1 Pet. 3:6.

In Christ,

Chris
 
Whoa. As for me, I'm a Zionist to the bone and I reject this silly replacement theology. How do you regard Israel becoming once more a nation after 2000 years in light of Ezekiel chapters 36-38?
 
Aaron, would you feel comfortable calling yourself as "Dispensationalist"? Or would you deny that label?
 
Dispensationalist? Not in any sense of the word, if you mean to say that dispensationalism is where people where saved by different means throughout history.

Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture, as the Bible has stated?
 
[quote:0f1da65fdc][i:0f1da65fdc]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:0f1da65fdc]
Dispensationalist? Not in any sense of the word, if you mean to say that dispensationalism is where people where saved by different means throughout history.[/quote:0f1da65fdc]

The word can actually have a broader meaning than that; just the tendency to view God's focus on different major groups of people to be of different natures and extents during changing time-periods, even if that focus is not necessarily salvific in nature, is considered "Dispensationalistic" to some extent.

[quote:0f1da65fdc][i:0f1da65fdc]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:0f1da65fdc]
Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture, as the Bible has stated? [/quote:0f1da65fdc]

Orthodox? It depends upon what you mean by that term, and even that is an issue sometimes debated. However, while one [i:0f1da65fdc]can[/i:0f1da65fdc] interpret God's post-OT dealings with "Israel" that way and still possibly be "orthodox", one [i:0f1da65fdc]cannot[/i:0f1da65fdc] believe that and be [i:0f1da65fdc]Reformed[/i:0f1da65fdc] in the fullest confessional sense of the word.

When interpreting passages like Ezekiel 36-38, which "Israel" do you take those chapters to be referring to - physical or spiritual. As shown by the verses I referenced above, there is a clear biblical distinction.

In Christ,

Chris
 
[quote:c90413182b]
one cannot believe that and be Reformed in the fullest confessional sense of the word.
[/quote:c90413182b]

Please. I could probably pick a random doctrine in which to believe and find one reformer to back me up. Perhaps we should read [u:c90413182b]Of the Jews and their Lies[/u:c90413182b] by Martin Luther for a church service. I think that would be very edifying. Or maybe we should paint the church with pictures of Satan giving birth to the pope out of the "exit-only" hole. After all, Martin Luther did have those drawings commissioned, and we wouldn't want our reformed brethren to miss out on that blessing. No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there.

I hereby proclaim: He that does not curse the devil while he farts is an Arminian.
 
[quote:06ef73073f][i:06ef73073f]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:06ef73073f]
[quote:06ef73073f]
one cannot believe that and be Reformed in the fullest confessional sense of the word.
[/quote:06ef73073f]

Please. I could probably pick a random doctrine in which to believe and find one reformer to back me up. Perhaps we should read [u:06ef73073f]Of the Jews and their Lies[/u:06ef73073f] by Martin Luther for a church service. I think that would be very edifying. Or maybe we should paint the church with pictures of Satan giving birth to the pope out of the "exit-only" hole. After all, Martin Luther did have those drawings commissioned, and we wouldn't want our reformed brethren to miss out on that blessing. No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there.

I hereby proclaim: He that does not curse the devil while he farts is an Arminian. [/quote:06ef73073f]

There's no need to get into a combattive or insulting spirit. We are here to discuss issues [i:06ef73073f]to the glory of God[/i:06ef73073f], and if we cannot do so properly, we should refrain from discussing those issues.

That being clear, I said you cannot believe God still has a special place for physical Israel today in His covenantal plan and be Reformed [i:06ef73073f]in the fullest [b:06ef73073f]confessional[/b:06ef73073f] sense of the word[/i:06ef73073f]. I nowhere said that one should agree with everything that every Reformer said. Look at the WCF, and then ask yourself if it agrees with your view of modern-day Israel. If it does not, you should be honest with yourself and others as to Reformed theology's disagreement with you on that point. As Matt said in an article of his on APM, "You cannot reject aspects of Covenant Theology and call yourself Reformed" (taken from "What Does it Mean to be Reformed - Really?" at http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/McMahon-WhatDoesItMeanToBeReformed.htm).

In Christ,

Chris
 
Adam and All(even Scott B),
Im so glad your finally seeing what im seeing with Bush. I know and ask your forgiveness for not doing it in a gnetle way. But im glad to see your actually looking at bush not through the lenses of the christian coalition-or God only votes republican viewpoint(if that makes sense). Only god can help Bush we can only pray he turns away form sins just like I pray that God will continually turn me away from my sins as well:( more than likely world leaders or men of power wont tunr away from their agenda but it has happened but it is not something I would expect. All we know is that somehow God has a plan and is working it through all of us. Some of us will make it others will turn away but God will be Glorified!! I agree with Bush that God made him president of our nation. I disagree with Bush in the sense that God is using him in a different way then being that new christian leader to take back our nation from being a religous melting pot and den of adulters. I personally dont think there is even going to be an election(I know Patrick is going to :rolleyes: when he reads that ha ha) the only thing we can do is Love God honor our family and persevere to the end things are bad now and getting worse like not that I endorse him rumsfled said the war is just begining and it is it is.

blade:scholar:
 
I have no problem with any part of the Westminster confession.


Combative and insulting? I guess I'm not *really* reformed because I don't believe or do believe some things about Israel? Ridiculous beyond any measure of human comprehension.
 
[quote:42cdc56c90][i:42cdc56c90]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:42cdc56c90]
Combative and insulting? I guess I'm not *really* reformed because I don't believe or do believe some things about Israel? Ridiculous beyond any measure of human comprehension. [/quote:42cdc56c90]

I'm talking about your speech like, "No, wait! Lets run into my "Bible" church at Christmastime and destroy the nativity scene! You're in good company there." That is being sarcastic in a non-edifying way, as you continue to do in your last post. We don't need to make a doctrinal dispute a personal issue, talk in a smart-alek way, or slander each other. I respectfully ask you to stop.

In Christ,

Chris
 
Telling me I'm not reformed is not a doctrinal issue.

I'm not attacking you, I'm making light of your arguments by extending them in a logical fashion.
 
Guys please settle down were here to discuss together not go at each others neck keep the conversation on topic settle disputes that are not related via u2u.

blade
 
[quote:e93edbb359][i:e93edbb359]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:e93edbb359]
Telling me I'm not reformed is not a doctrinal issue.[/quote:e93edbb359]

If you look at enough past threads on this Board, you will see that yes, it absolutely is. We've even had discussions and debates here as to whether or not Reformed Baptists (of which there are [i:e93edbb359]many[/i:e93edbb359] on this Board) should call themselves "Reformed" or not. We've also discussed things such whether or not all credobaptists have a "Dispensational" streak to them. When we were discussing "The Passion" and its relation to the second commandment, many of us attempted to show that if one believes such images of Christ are acceptable, they are not in-line with Reformed thought on that issue. We discuss whether or not certain view's of each other's are Reformed [i:e93edbb359]all the time[/i:e93edbb359] here on Puritan Board. If you were not prepared to receive any answer, you should not have asked, "Can't I be orthodox and still affirm that Israel has not been swept out of the picture?" I was simply giving you my mind's answer to your question, which I still believe.

[quote:e93edbb359][i:e93edbb359]Originally posted by Authorised[/i:e93edbb359]
I'm not attacking you, I'm making light of your arguments by extending them in a logical fashion. [/quote:e93edbb359]

Challenging you on a view of yours being in-line with Reformed thought is purely a doctrinal issue, and is perfectly reasonable. It does not logically lead to the kind of speech you were making.

By the way, Blade, thanks for getting this thread back to its original topic. Since we wanted to discuss Israel's place in the world today, we should have created another thread. My apologies.

In Christ,

Chris
 
So, Blade, since you don't agree with so much of what Bush stands for, how exactyl do you plan to vote in November? Do you think the Constitution Party is a valid "replacement vote" instead of Bush? Do you plan to vote at all in light of the candidates?

In Christ,

Chris
 
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