Kings of the east and the drying up of the Euphrates River

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Adam Olive

Puritan Board Freshman
How is this verse understood from an amillennial perspective?

Is it just using the historical invasions of Old Testament Israel as a symbol of the gathering of people to attempt to finally wipe out the church? Is the geographical referants just symbolic?

Revelation 16:12. The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
 
Hello Adam, welcome to PB!

The answer to your question would be, Yes. It is used symbolically to refer to an invasion against the people of God in particular, and as well humankind generally. I quote a little from a paper I've published off this board.

________

The second part of [Rev] chapter 9 has a new and more intense invasion of demonic beings from a symbolic “Euphrates river” – an ancient image of the boundary where enemies would issue from to attack and destroy, whether the target was Israel or Rome. In the Revelation vision (which is shown from different angles in different passages) this boundary was “dried up” to allow them to pass over (Rev 16:12ff.), and from another angle (9:14ff.) four evil angels were loosed (four is usually a symbol in Rev for worldwide or universal) to commence the new, and now lethal havoc to be wrought upon men, the which would kill one third of humankind. It is interesting and instructive to note (according to my thesis) that the progress of the great deception took around 50 years – half a century – from its beginning to its turning into a wave of killing. . . .

In Rev 16:12-14, as the sixth angel poured out his vial (or bowl) on “the great river Euphrates” it was dried up allowing devils to go forth to “the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty”.

And in Rev 9, with the fifth and sixth trumpets, we see (as we have above) deception and destruction ravage humankind through an opening of Hell which loosed hordes of devils upon the world to deceive and destroy.

[I've deleted much of my earlier post as it was too detailed (and wordy!) and not apropos your question!]

My post below goes into further responding to your query.
 
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As I understand it the drying up of the Euphrates was an actual historical event that is used prophetically
by John. It is a recall of a literal happening in order to prepare the church for the future. There are two
Babylons, the actual city which in its wickedness symbolises the World. The river Euphrates divided the
City, and King Cyrus (means "my anointed "I am told ) when attacking the city, cunningly had huge diches
dug and diverted the river. By stationing troops either side of the city they were able to enter on the waterless
bed of the Euphrates whilst Belshazzar was indulging in the cup and being confronted with the finger of God
writing on the wall. Thus was the city taken and then later destroyed never to be built again. Alexander had
plans to direct the river to its original course but was poisoned before they materialised.
So this holds out to to the people of God the encouragement and strength to look for and face the prospect of
the eventual overthrow and defeat of the powers of this world and the darkness behind them. The smoke of
Great Babylon shall as ascend for ever. The prophecies of Daniel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah all speak of this amazing
uncontested defeat of the city. The Kings of the East are the Gentile believers who are kings and priests unto God,
being headed by the heavenly Cyrus, the Christ or My anointed. The drying up, and conquest of the city was a signal
that the Jews would be liberated according to promise, and so in the final contest God's elect will champion through
the Omnipotence and Sovereignty of our God. I write as an a-millennialist an offer my take on your question.
 
Jacob, to answer in one sentence, Yes, the references in Revelation to the River Euphrates are symbolic.

Adam (actually, I see you've been here for some years, just not very active in posting), first, I shall post Rev 16:12-14:

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

On the amil (or present millennium) view, this is referring to the end of the last days, with parallels in Rev 19:11-21; 20:7-9; and also 17:14; 11:7-12; and 9:14-21 – although this last passage, with its own reference to the Euphrates, leads up to the last battle, and is thus related to it, but is not itself the last battle proper.



In the times of ancient Israel both the Assyrians and the Babylonians crossed the Euphrates to attack God's people, and even in Roman times there was a great fear of the Parthians and their cavalry of excellent archers crossing to attack Rome itself. It thus rendered itself a fitting symbol of alien forces attacking from a known dangerous frontier.

Back to Revelation 16:12 ff. It is specifically stated that these forces of the "kings of the east" are made a way to proceed by loosed demonic forces
coming from the mouths of the dragon, beast and false prophet for "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (v. 14).

God is gathering and setting up the powers of evil for a showdown
– also termed in verse 16 "Armageddon" – but the kings of the east are to be identified, not with believers lead by Christ, but rather are (from another "camera angle") the forces of Gog and Magog, clearly alluded to in Rev 19:17-21 (see Ezekiel 39:17 ff.), and specifically spoken of in Rev 20:8, which pictures the global assault – "they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" – against God's people over the breadth of the earth. It is at this point, when the organized, visible church is all but decimated (for "they overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" Rev 12:11), that Christ returns in vengeance to raise up His beloved from the slaughter to Himself in the clouds (Rev 11:7-12). They overcame death by scorning it, knowing they would be resurrected in glory when He returned.

It is amazing how skillfully John (by the Holy Spirit) weaves the vision of the devil's and the world's hostility and the Lord's consummate victory over them in this book of the final prophecy. He inspires His people to stand firm and courageous against all that the wicked can throw at them, all the while bearing brave and clear testimony to the Christ of God and His soon-coming kingdom. It is happening even now in other parts of the world, and shall it not be our turn soon in the West? Shall we be exempted from showing the Lord
– and the principalities and powers in the heavenlies – our loyalty and love to our great King, come hell or high water? I think not.
 
Jacob, what would the literal reading look like when realized?

Rev 16:12-14 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

Would not "literal" involve modern Iraq and the Euphrates by it? But the imagery is from the prophetic and visual vantage of Palestine. When we in America or Europe or the UK look east, we see China and the Asian countries. If the locale of the vision is literal, would not the players
– the dragon, beast, false prophet, and frog-like devils – also be literal, and visible? And how come the "kings of the east" then morph into the "kings of the earth and of the whole world"?

The literal reading is fraught with (it seems to me) insurmountable exegetical difficulties.
 
Jacob, what would the literal reading look like when realized?

Rev 16:12-14 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

Would not "literal" involve modern Iraq and the Euphrates by it? But the imagery is from the prophetic and visual vantage of Palestine. When we in America or Europe or the UK look east, we see China and the Asian countries. If the locale of the vision is literal, would not the players
– the dragon, beast, false prophet, and frog-like devils – also be literal, and visible? And how come the "kings of the east" then morph into the "kings of the earth and of the whole world"?

The literal reading is fraught with (it seems to me) insurmountable exegetical difficulties.

I don't see those necessarily as a problem, but nor do I interpret "literal" in a strictly univocal sense.

As to what it would "look" like. I have no idea. I normally don't see rivers drying up.
 
Adam Olive,

I noticed in your profile that you're still pondering between the Amil and Historic Premil views, and in the interests of edifying a brother I got permission from Dean Davis, author of the excellent Amil work, The High King of Heaven, to post two brief sections from his book on Historic Premillennialism. Three of his acronyms are NCH = New Covenant Hermeneutic, and OTKP = Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy, and GETD = Great End-Time Debate. The first section is:

_________

1. Historic Premillennialism

[in the book a timeline is inserted here]

This view is called premillennial because it teaches that Christ will come again before a thousand year reign upon the earth. It is called historic because, according to some, it was the dominant view of the early Church, and also because, in various forms, it has appeared throughout much of Church History.

There are two kinds of Historic Premillennialism (HP). The first may be called New Covenant (or Christian) Historic Premillennialism (NCHP). Its chief characteristic is that it places the Church at the center of the millennial scenario. Here, OTKP is fulfilled under the New Covenant, whether in the Era of Proclamation, the Millennium, or the World to Come. Accordingly, NCHP does not anticipate the exaltation of ethnic Israel in the Millennium, or a return to OT ordinances such as Temple worship, animal sacrifices, and Jewish Feasts. Rather, the Millennium is that stage in Salvation History where Christ’s Kingship is publically vindicated and celebrated in a renewed (but not yet perfected) world, and where His faithful New Covenant people are rewarded by sharing in His earthly reign.

All of the ante-Nicene premillennarians were of this persuasion. They include Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, the Montanists, and Lactantius. After Augustine, NCHP was eclipsed for over a thousand years by amillennialism. However, in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] and 18[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries a number of Protestant thinkers embraced it once again. They include Johann Alsted, Cotton Mather, Philipp Spener, Joseph Bengel, John Gill, Joseph Mede, and Charles Wesley. In the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, many premillennarians began to experiment with a more literal interpretation of OTKP, and therefore showed a lively interest in God’s plans for ethnic Israel. In time this trend led to the triumph of Dispensational Premillennialism, with its unprecedented focus upon Israel’s millennial glory. However, since the mid-20[SUP]th[/SUP] century a large number of evangelicals, following the lead of theologian George Ladd, have rejected Dispensationalism and returned once again to the classic NCHP. Prominent among them are Clarence Bass, Jim Hamilton, Carl Henry, Robert Mounce, Grant Osborne, J. Barton Payne, and John Piper. Arguably, this is now the majority position of American theologians. If, then, it is essential conformity to Ante-Nicene premillennialism that makes one a “true” historic premillennarian, these men are the rightful heirs to that mantle.

There is, however, a second form of HP. Again, it arose primarily in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, when many evangelicals, adopting a more literal interpretation of OTKP, began to assert that God will fulfill certain OT promises by restoring and exalting ethnic Israel, both prior to and during the Millennium. Their company is impressive. It includes David Baron, Andrew and Horatio Bonar, Franz Delitzsche, Frederick Godet, Robert M’ Cheyne, George Peters, Charles Spurgeon, Samuel Tregelles, and Nathaniel West. Because of its interest in the future of ethnic Israel, we may call this view Old Covenant (or Jewish) Historic Premillennialism (OCHP).

While there are significant differences among them, most Old Covenant premillennarians would endorse the following sketch of Salvation History. In OT times God promised, prefigured, and prepared for an eschatological Kingdom that would appear in three stages: The Church Era of Gospel Proclamation, the Millennium, and the World to Come. The mission of the Church will advance in history infallibly, though with great difficulty. Towards the end of the age, the world will plunge into deep spiritual darkness, thereby triggering the rise of the Antichrist, a brief season severe persecution, and the apostasy of many professing believers. Then Christ will come again. When He does (or shortly before it), the great mass of Jews will be converted. Acting in judgment, Christ will destroy the Antichrist and his followers, and then confine Satan to the abyss. Acting in redemption, He will resurrect the saints of all time (or the martyrs alone), glorify living believers, partially lift the curse from the earth, and welcome believing Jews and the spared children of unbelievers into the Millennium. Now begins the theocratic stage of the Kingdom, when God’s eschatological David reigns over Israel and the nations. His kingship emanates from earthly Jerusalem, where (according to some) a glorious new Temple is situated, commemorative animal sacrifices are offered, and the ancient Mosaic feasts are observed. Though it is indeed a season of universal peace, the Millennium ends, mysteriously enough, with war: Released from the abyss, Satan uses his deceptive powers to incite a global rebellion against Christ and the saints. However, God immediately steps in so that fire falls from heaven, the rebels are consumed, and Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. This brings on the (final) Consummation, wherein God raises the wicked dead (and, according to some, the millennial saints), judges the world in righteousness, destroys the present cosmos with fire, and creates new heavens and a new earth. Thus begins the third stage of the Kingdom, in which Jew and Gentile dwell together with God forever as a single glorified Church in the World to Come.

Shorn of its emphasis on ethnic Israel and the (partial) restoration of Mosaic ordinances, this is how NCHP views Salvation History as well.

Observe from our time-line that by opting for a future Millennium both forms of HP require two each of the great eschatological events, whether last battles, comings of Christ, resurrections, judgments, or cosmic transformations. In the pages ahead we will inquire as to whether the NT actually confirms this complex version of the Consummation, and, indeed, the entire HP scenario.

[end first section]
__________

The second section is:


Appendix 1

A CRITIQUE OF HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM

THIS IS THE first of four appendices in which I offer brief critiques of the main eschatological options before evangelical Christians. My purpose here is not to repeat the arguments and evidences discussed in the body of this book. Rather, I simply want to model what I regard as the most fruitful method for examining different eschatological perspectives, whether old or new.

This method, which reflects the underlying issues of the GETD, involves asking four questions of each eschatological option. They are:

1) What is its view of the nature and structure of the Kingdom of God?

2) What is its view of the nature and structure of the Consummation?

3) How does it interpret OTKP: basically literally, in terms of ethnic Israel and a future Mosaic theocracy; or basically spiritually, in terms of the Church and the spiritual reign of God introduced by the New Covenant?

4) What is its view of the Revelation in general, and of Revelation 20 in particular?​

With the help of the time-line shown below, let us use these helpful questions to critique Historic Premillennialism. You may wish to review the material on HP in chapter 3, where I distinguish between New Covenant and Old Covenant HP.

[Time-line should be inserted Here: Historic Premillennialism]

View of the Kingdom

From our time-line we learn that HP envisions the Kingdom as entering history in three stages: the Church Era of Gospel Proclamation, the Millennium, and the World to Come. However, in our journey we found that the NT demurs. Apart from the much-disputed Revelation 20, it says nothing whatsoever about a future millennial stage of the Kingdom. Also, its didactic eschatology completely rules out premillennialism, since it has the Kingdom entering history not in three stages, but two: the Era of Proclamation and the World to Come.

Additionally, NT teaching about the nature of the Kingdom shows that OCHP cannot possibly be true. This is because the two-staged reign of God is a creation of the New Covenant, with the result that the citizens of the Kingdom worship, not in this or that earthly mountain, but in spirit and (New Covenant) truth. There will be no return to the temporary and typological institutions of the ancient Mosaic theocracy.

View of the Consummation

Historic premillennarians look for two distinct Comings of Christ—one at the end of the present evil age, and the other at the end of the Millennium. This complex scenario raises thorny questions. At the first Parousia, who will be judged and who will be allowed to enter the Millennium? How realistic—or biblical—is it to assert that the children of unbelievers will become the nations over which Christ rules? What happens to the millennial saints when they die? Will they immediately receive their resurrection bodies, or will they wait in heaven as disembodied spirits until the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium? How is it that Christ’s glorious millennial reign ends in near universal rebellion against him and his people? And finally, does Scripture really permit us to look for what HP requires: two resurrections, two judgments, and two cosmic transformations, all separated by a thousand years?

Such questions tell us that something is fundamentally wrong with HP. In the course of our study, we learned what it is: The NT consistently looks for a single consummation centered on a single parousia, resurrection, judgment, and cosmic transformation. Therefore, it is the doctrine of a future Millennium that shatters the simplicity of the biblical picture, and opens the door to confusion. Perhaps, then, premillennarians would be wise to re-visit their interpretation of Revelation 20, for by moving it into the present, as amillennialism does, all confusion disappears!

View of OTKP

I rejoice that advocates of NCHP are inclined to interpret OTKP much as amillennarians do: as veiled revelations in which God used OT language and imagery to speak “mysteriously” about spiritual and physical blessings unveiled by Christ and the New Covenant. To paraphrase their Master, they are not far from the truth of the Kingdom!

I wonder, however, how they can preach and teach from OTKP. In particular, how can they discern which predictions are actually fulfilled in the Millennium? Is Isaiah 11:6-9 fulfilled in the Millennium? Since it says nothing of a thousand years, how can they be sure it does not speak “mysteriously” of the World to Come? And what of these premillennial favorites: Isaiah 65:17-25 and 66:22-24? Here the situation is even worse, since the prophet positively affirms that latter-day “Jerusalem”, and the world it will inhabit, will endure forever (65:18, 66:22)!

It appears, then, that NCHP is shut up to Revelation 20 alone for its knowledge of the Millennium. This should make its proponents very uneasy. Do they really want to hang so great an eschatological bundle on so tiny a peg? Again, doesn’t this kind of problem invite a thorough re-examination of the meaning of Revelation 20 beneath the light of NT eschatology?

As for the followers of OCHP, we remember that they interpret OTKP basically literally; that they view these prophecies as photographs of the future of ethnic Israel and the nations living together in the Millennium.

We have seen, however, that this approach plunges the biblical interpreter into a great thicket of difficulties: apparent contradictions, historical anachronisms, a future return to the Mosaic Law, and a losing battle with the NT doctrine of the Kingdom. Happily, we also saw that the apostles do not interpret OTKP in this manner. Yes, they understood that God meant “simple” Messianic prophe*cies—prophecies fulfilled prior to Pentecost—to be interpreted basically literally, and then to be used in the global proclamation of the Gospel. But they also understood that true OTKP’s—prophecies fulfilled after Pentecost—must be interpreted by a skillful use of the NCH, and therefore as being fulfilled in Christ, under the New Covenant, and among the New Covenant people of God: the Church of all times, comprised of Jew and Gentile. Let us be glad of it, for here alone do we find the way of escape from the maddening historical and theological contradictions into which OCHP would plunge us all.

View of the Revelation

Whatever their approach to the Revelation as a whole, all historic premillennarians agree that chapter 20 speaks of events that occur after the Parousia. We have seen, however, that this futuristic reading of Revelation 20 immediately brings them into conflict with the rest of the NT, which pervasively sees the Kingdom as coming in two simple stages, separated by a single Consummation at the return of Christ.

There is, however, a way of escape. We came upon it in Part 4 of our study, where we learned that Revelation 20 is actually one of six visionary cycles, all of which describe the period of time between Christ’s first and second advents. This was particularly evident from the striking similarities between chapters 12 and 20. Moreover, once we recognize that “the first resurrection” of 20:4-6 is spiritual rather than physical, it is easy to see how Revelation 20 symbolizes the course of the Era of Proclamation, and how the whole book now harmonizes perfectly with the rest of the NT.

Summing up, we find that HP entangles the biblical interpreter in inescapable conflict and confusion. When, however, we receive from Christ the Master Keys to the GETD, all difficulties are resolved, and the one true eschatology of Scripture rises like the sun in its strength. I pray my premillennial brethren will receive those keys, and so enter into the joy of the amillennial dawn.

[end of section 2]

________

Adam, I hope this survey of the Hist. Premil view has been helpful to you in your quest to sort this matter out. Sorry it was a bit lengthy, although to the scholarly really a piece of cake!
 
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Adam Olive,

I noticed in your profile that you're still pondering between the Amil and Historic Premil views, and in the interests of edifying a brother I got permission from Dean Davis, author of the excellent Amil work, The High King of Heaven, to post two brief sections from his book on Historic Premillennialism. Two of his acronyms are NCH = New Covenant Hermeneutic, and OTKP = Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy. The first section is:

_________

1. Historic Premillennialism

[in the book a timeline is inserted here]

This view is called premillennial because it teaches that Christ will come again before a thousand year reign upon the earth. It is called historic because, according to some, it was the dominant view of the early Church, and also because, in various forms, it has appeared throughout much of Church History.

There are two kinds of Historic Premillennialism (HP). The first may be called New Covenant (or Christian) Historic Premillennialism (NCHP). Its chief characteristic is that it places the Church at the center of the millennial scenario. Here, OTKP is fulfilled under the New Covenant, whether in the Era of Proclamation, the Millennium, or the World to Come. Accordingly, NCHP does not anticipate the exaltation of ethnic Israel in the Millennium, or a return to OT ordinances such as Temple worship, animal sacrifices, and Jewish Feasts. Rather, the Millennium is that stage in Salvation History where Christ’s Kingship is publically vindicated and celebrated in a renewed (but not yet perfected) world, and where His faithful New Covenant people are rewarded by sharing in His earthly reign.

All of the ante-Nicene premillennarians were of this persuasion. They include Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, the Montanists, and Lactantius. After Augustine, NCHP was eclipsed for over a thousand years by amillennialism. However, in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] and 18[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries a number of Protestant thinkers embraced it once again. They include Johann Alsted, Cotton Mather, Philipp Spener, Joseph Bengel, John Gill, Joseph Mede, and Charles Wesley. In the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, many premillennarians began to experiment with a more literal interpretation of OTKP, and therefore showed a lively interest in God’s plans for ethnic Israel. In time this trend led to the triumph of Dispensational Premillennialism, with its unprecedented focus upon Israel’s millennial glory. However, since the mid-20[SUP]th[/SUP] century a large number of evangelicals, following the lead of theologian George Ladd, have rejected Dispensationalism and returned once again to the classic NCHP. Prominent among them are Clarence Bass, Jim Hamilton, Carl Henry, Robert Mounce, Grant Osborne, J. Barton Payne, and John Piper. Arguably, this is now the majority position of American theologians. If, then, it is essential conformity to Ante-Nicene premillennialism that makes one a “true” historic premillennarian, these men are the rightful heirs to that mantle.

There is, however, a second form of HP. Again, it arose primarily in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, when many evangelicals, adopting a more literal interpretation of OTKP, began to assert that God will fulfill certain OT promises by restoring and exalting ethnic Israel, both prior to and during the Millennium. Their company is impressive. It includes David Baron, Andrew and Horatio Bonar, Franz Delitzsche, Frederick Godet, Robert M’ Cheyne, George Peters, Charles Spurgeon, Samuel Tregelles, and Nathaniel West. Because of its interest in the future of ethnic Israel, we may call this view Old Covenant (or Jewish) Historic Premillennialism (OCHP).

While there are significant differences among them, most Old Covenant premillennarians would endorse the following sketch of Salvation History. In OT times God promised, prefigured, and prepared for an eschatological Kingdom that would appear in three stages: The Church Era of Gospel Proclamation, the Millennium, and the World to Come. The mission of the Church will advance in history infallibly, though with great difficulty. Towards the end of the age, the world will plunge into deep spiritual darkness, thereby triggering the rise of the Antichrist, a brief season severe persecution, and the apostasy of many professing believers. Then Christ will come again. When He does (or shortly before it), the great mass of Jews will be converted. Acting in judgment, Christ will destroy the Antichrist and his followers, and then confine Satan to the abyss. Acting in redemption, He will resurrect the saints of all time (or the martyrs alone), glorify living believers, partially lift the curse from the earth, and welcome believing Jews and the spared children of unbelievers into the Millennium. Now begins the theocratic stage of the Kingdom, when God’s eschatological David reigns over Israel and the nations. His kingship emanates from earthly Jerusalem, where (according to some) a glorious new Temple is situated, commemorative animal sacrifices are offered, and the ancient Mosaic feasts are observed. Though it is indeed a season of universal peace, the Millennium ends, mysteriously enough, with war: Released from the abyss, Satan uses his deceptive powers to incite a global rebellion against Christ and the saints. However, God immediately steps in so that fire falls from heaven, the rebels are consumed, and Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. This brings on the (final) Consummation, wherein God raises the wicked dead (and, according to some, the millennial saints), judges the world in righteousness, destroys the present cosmos with fire, and creates new heavens and a new earth. Thus begins the third stage of the Kingdom, in which Jew and Gentile dwell together with God forever as a single glorified Church in the World to Come.

Shorn of its emphasis on ethnic Israel and the (partial) restoration of Mosaic ordinances, this is how NCHP views Salvation History as well.

Observe from our time-line that by opting for a future Millennium both forms of HP require two each of the great eschatological events, whether last battles, comings of Christ, resurrections, judgments, or cosmic transformations. In the pages ahead we will inquire as to whether the NT actually confirms this complex version of the Consummation, and, indeed, the entire HP scenario.

[end first section]
__________

The second section is:


Appendix 1

A CRITIQUE OF HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM

THIS IS THE first of four appendices in which I offer brief critiques of the main eschatological options before evangelical Christians. My purpose here is not to repeat the arguments and evidences discussed in the body of this book. Rather, I simply want to model what I regard as the most fruitful method for examining different eschatological perspectives, whether old or new.

This method, which reflects the underlying issues of the GETD, involves asking four questions of each eschatological option. They are:

1) What is its view of the nature and structure of the Kingdom of God?

2) What is its view of the nature and structure of the Consummation?

3) How does it interpret OTKP: basically literally, in terms of ethnic Israel and a future Mosaic theocracy; or basically spiritually, in terms of the Church and the spiritual reign of God introduced by the New Covenant?

4) What is its view of the Revelation in general, and of Revelation 20 in particular?​

With the help of the time-line shown below, let us use these helpful questions to critique Historic Premillennialism. You may wish to review the material on HP in chapter 3, where I distinguish between New Covenant and Old Covenant HP.

[Time-line should be inserted Here: Historic Premillennialism]

View of the Kingdom

From our time-line we learn that HP envisions the Kingdom as entering history in three stages: the Church Era of Gospel Proclamation, the Millennium, and the World to Come. However, in our journey we found that the NT demurs. Apart from the much-disputed Revelation 20, it says nothing whatsoever about a future millennial stage of the Kingdom. Also, its didactic eschatology completely rules out premillennialism, since it has the Kingdom entering history not in three stages, but two: the Era of Proclamation and the World to Come.

Additionally, NT teaching about the nature of the Kingdom shows that OCHP cannot possibly be true. This is because the two-staged reign of God is a creation of the New Covenant, with the result that the citizens of the Kingdom worship, not in this or that earthly mountain, but in spirit and (New Covenant) truth. There will be no return to the temporary and typological institutions of the ancient Mosaic theocracy.

View of the Consummation

Historic premillennarians look for two distinct Comings of Christ—one at the end of the present evil age, and the other at the end of the Millennium. This complex scenario raises thorny questions. At the first Parousia, who will be judged and who will be allowed to enter the Millennium? How realistic—or biblical—is it to assert that the children of unbelievers will become the nations over which Christ rules? What happens to the millennial saints when they die? Will they immediately receive their resurrection bodies, or will they wait in heaven as disembodied spirits until the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium? How is it that Christ’s glorious millennial reign ends in near universal rebellion against him and his people? And finally, does Scripture really permit us to look for what HP requires: two resurrections, two judgments, and two cosmic transformations, all separated by a thousand years?

Such questions tell us that something is fundamentally wrong with HP. In the course of our study, we learned what it is: The NT consistently looks for a single consummation centered on a single parousia, resurrection, judgment, and cosmic transformation. Therefore, it is the doctrine of a future Millennium that shatters the simplicity of the biblical picture, and opens the door to confusion. Perhaps, then, premillennarians would be wise to re-visit their interpretation of Revelation 20, for by moving it into the present, as amillennialism does, all confusion disappears!

View of OTKP

I rejoice that advocates of NCHP are inclined to interpret OTKP much as amillennarians do: as veiled revelations in which God used OT language and imagery to speak “mysteriously” about spiritual and physical blessings unveiled by Christ and the New Covenant. To paraphrase their Master, they are not far from the truth of the Kingdom!

I wonder, however, how they can preach and teach from OTKP. In particular, how can they discern which predictions are actually fulfilled in the Millennium? Is Isaiah 11:6-9 fulfilled in the Millennium? Since it says nothing of a thousand years, how can they be sure it does not speak “mysteriously” of the World to Come? And what of these premillennial favorites: Isaiah 65:17-25 and 66:22-24? Here the situation is even worse, since the prophet positively affirms that latter-day “Jerusalem”, and the world it will inhabit, will endure forever (65:18, 66:22)!

It appears, then, that NCHP is shut up to Revelation 20 alone for its knowledge of the Millennium. This should make its proponents very uneasy. Do they really want to hang so great an eschatological bundle on so tiny a peg? Again, doesn’t this kind of problem invite a thorough re-examination of the meaning of Revelation 20 beneath the light of NT eschatology?

As for the followers of OCHP, we remember that they interpret OTKP basically literally; that they view these prophecies as photographs of the future of ethnic Israel and the nations living together in the Millennium.

We have seen, however, that this approach plunges the biblical interpreter into a great thicket of difficulties: apparent contradictions, historical anachronisms, a future return to the Mosaic Law, and a losing battle with the NT doctrine of the Kingdom. Happily, we also saw that the apostles do not interpret OTKP in this manner. Yes, they understood that God meant “simple” Messianic prophe*cies—prophecies fulfilled prior to Pentecost—to be interpreted basically literally, and then to be used in the global proclamation of the Gospel. But they also understood that true OTKP’s—prophecies fulfilled after Pentecost—must be interpreted by a skillful use of the NCH, and therefore as being fulfilled in Christ, under the New Covenant, and among the New Covenant people of God: the Church of all times, comprised of Jew and Gentile. Let us be glad of it, for here alone do we find the way of escape from the maddening historical and theological contradictions into which OCHP would plunge us all.

View of the Revelation

Whatever their approach to the Revelation as a whole, all historic premillennarians agree that chapter 20 speaks of events that occur after the Parousia. We have seen, however, that this futuristic reading of Revelation 20 immediately brings them into conflict with the rest of the NT, which pervasively sees the Kingdom as coming in two simple stages, separated by a single Consummation at the return of Christ.

There is, however, a way of escape. We came upon it in Part 4 of our study, where we learned that Revelation 20 is actually one of six visionary cycles, all of which describe the period of time between Christ’s first and second advents. This was particularly evident from the striking similarities between chapters 12 and 20. Moreover, once we recognize that “the first resurrection” of 20:4-6 is spiritual rather than physical, it is easy to see how Revelation 20 symbolizes the course of the Era of Proclamation, and how the whole book now harmonizes perfectly with the rest of the NT.

Summing up, we find that HP entangles the biblical interpreter in inescapable conflict and confusion. When, however, we receive from Christ the Master Keys to the GETD, all difficulties are resolved, and the one true eschatology of Scripture rises like the sun in its strength. I pray my premillennial brethren will receive those keys, and so enter into the joy of the amillennial dawn.

[end of section 2]

________

Adam, I hope this survey of the Hist. Premil view has been helpful to you in your quest to sort this matter out. Sorry it was a bit lengthy, although to the scholarly really a piece of cake!

Thanks for this Steve.
 
Hi Steve. Thanks for your time in replying. I have read your posts and some of Beale's NIGNT commentary on Revelation in addition to thinking off and on. I am inclined to think the drying up of the Euphrates is being used a geographical symbol of both the destruction of "the-world-city-Babylon" and of the final attack on the people of God (within God's sovereignty). I am writing down my thoughts and once done I will post here for feedback.

I have only occasionally come to this site as a resource so I haven't been very present. However in the years since I first signed up I have moved to amillennialism. My movement was dispensational to historic premillennialism to amillenialism.

Regarding the final battle my current thinking is that it is primarily a final attempt to wipe out the church as people gather not in one localized place but in various gatherings around the globe to assault the church (comparable perhaps to the war against the Jews in Mordecai's day).

Nevertheless, believing that just prior to the end the bulk of Jews will turn to Christ, there may also be a localized expression of the war in the land of Israel too. (As the gatherings are global this may include a gathering against Christ-believing literal Jerusalem as well).

So the Euphrates may have a double referent but it is primarily theological and symbolical whatever actual expression may or may not occur in the Middle East.

Thoughts?
 
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Hello Adam,

Your thoughts on a global assault against the church (and I like your reference to the situation in Mordecai's day) are in line with the consensus of contemporary amil understanding.

With regard to the Jews, and a "bulk" of them turning to Christ "just prior to the end", I don't believe we have any Biblical warrant to assert this will be so, although we may hope and pray it will. I don't think Romans 11:26 ("And so all Israel shall be saved...") can be used to make that assertion, as it may well refer to either, a) all the elect among ethnic Jewry, or b) all the elect among both Jews and Gentiles, i.e., New Covenant Israel.

Still, there are a good number of Messianic (i.e., believing) Jews in the State of Israel, and they would also be targets in the final assault against the camp of the saints. Your thought of a "double referent" being applicable for the Jews in the Jewish state, that might come to their minds (as many of them are charismatic and Arminian) but for the soundly Biblical among them the symbolic understanding would be the sole referent. Because the perpetrators of the assault against them would come even from within their own nation!

I'm preparing to post in the Puritan Writers Guild here – for feedback purposes – a booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, from a larger work I'm readying to publish, to the end of evangelizing my people after the flesh. So I hope that will be the case, "the bulk" of them.
 
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Could the context in Romans 11:26 be the elect? That is, do the phrase all Israel be referred to as all the elect.
 
Could the context in Romans 11:26 be the elect? That is, do the phrase all Israel be referred to as all the elect.

The only problems I see with that:

a) it's a tautology. By definition all of the elect will be saved.
b) that's not how "Israel" is being used in Romans 9-11
 
Jacob,

First, thanks for your little quip above, “So, in one sentence...”—I’ve been ill for a while and was afflicted with a bit of a brain-fog, which you helped snap me out of! It was helpful.

About the alleged “tautology” — I respond, Romans 9:6, “…they are not all Israel, which are of Israel”, makes clear Paul is operating with two definitions of “Israel”, which his earlier remarks on true Jews support:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God (Rom 2:27-29).​

Again he says this—that Gentiles are now brought into the Household of God, His true Israel:

…at [one] time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus… ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (Eph 2:12, 13, 19).​

In Hebrews 3:5, 6, Paul confirms what this house is:

Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.​

And what house was Moses faithful with regard to? And what house Christ a Son over? The house of Israel. Therefore Paul reasserts this in Gal. 6:16, “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” And John in Revelation (by the Holy Spirit) calls the capital of God’s eternal kingdom on New Earth, “the holy city, new Jerusalem” (Rev 20:2) and “that great city, the holy Jerusalem” (v 10).

All this to clarify that “children of the promise are counted for the seed” (Rom 9:8), and of the house of Israel.

So when you say above, “that's not how ‘Israel’ is being used in Romans 9-11”, you neglect Paul’s double use of the word. For at the time of his writing that, the temple still stood, and the (albeit invalidated by God) worship continued, the ethnic nation not yet once-and-for-all disbanded. But in A.D. 70 it was. And so “all Israel shall be saved” is not tautological, for Paul is establishing nuances meant to answer just such a charge, just as Peter did a couple of decades earlier when he said, “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people” (Acts 3:23).

________

To answer your earlier question, “Steve, Do you believe there will be a literal final battle?”

Both the premils (which I gather you still are, unless you have changed – and I see you are open enough to do in many areas) and the amils do hold to “a literal final battle”. It seems the question between us is whether there are two, as premils hold, a supposed Armageddon before the millennium (Rev 19:11-21) and another “final battle” at the end of it (Rev 20:7-10), or, for the amils, simply one: seeing Rev 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 as the same in parallel (not chronological) visions from differing “camera angles”.

So, yes, I do believe in a literal final battle. It is depicted in Revelation 7 times: in cameos at Rev 6:15-17 (when the kings and all unregenerate of earth come to realize they are no match for the King in His wrath), 11:7-12 (when they—under the symbolic guise of two witnesses—have finished their testimony, and are warred against by the beast, killed, then resurrected and raptured to Christ in the presence of their enemies), 13:7 (again, warred against by the beast—although this cameo involves the whole interadvental or millennial period, but consummates with the rapture at the end, which is not shown here), 16:12-14, 16 (which shows the gathering of the worldlings to “the battle of that great day of God Almighty”), 17:14 (a very brief mention of the battle and its outcome), Rev 19:11-21 (the most extensive depiction of it, alluding to its OT forerunner prophecy, Ezek 39:17, the gruesome calls to the “supper of the great God”—which was a standard threat in ancient times, such as Goliath said to David, and David back to him), and then Rev 20:9-10. All these are parallel accounts of the one final battle after the millennial period, at the very end of which battle the church is raptured unto their King, which is shown in 1 Thess 4:16-17,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Please note the voice from heaven, and the trump of God, which are repeated more specifically in 1 Cor 15:51-52,

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

It is at the last trumpet, when it sounds (Rev 11:15) that we shall be raised up.

With regard to the timing of things (I am thinking of “the last trump” here) consider the deeply insightful words of Dennis Johnson on the symbolism of Revelation in relation to time elements in it:

Just as the vision genre sometimes compresses vast historical eons into symbolic images that pass like the twinkling of an eye (see Rev. 12:1-5, which spans redemptive history from Genesis 3 to Acts 1), so a split-second in time may be expanded in visionary description and simultaneous events presented as successive, in order to help hearers to see different facets of Christ’s victory. –Triumph of the Lamb, p. 176.​

This idea may be helpful in making sense of things when they seem to be grouped very close together time-wise, namely the global persecution of the saints depicted a number of times in the Apocalypse, the destruction of Babylon, and the war of Armageddon – which is another angle-shot of the war on the saints, in the midst of which the Lord Jesus returns to a) call His people out of their graves and those still living from the earth to join Him in the heavens, and b) to devastate the earth-dwellers who abused and slew His bride; and then shortly after, to raise them from the dead to stand before Him to be judged and consigned to eternal torment.

Sorry to go on at such length here, but I like to be thorough when establishing a point.

The actual identity and destruction of Babylon is another topic I have been laboring in, and am working on another paper on that. Revelation is a profoundly rich book, a great gift to us by our Prophet-King.
 
Jacob,

First, thanks for your little quip above, “So, in one sentence...”—I’ve been ill for a while and was afflicted with a bit of a brain-fog, which you helped snap me out of! It was helpful.

About the alleged “tautology” — I respond, Romans 9:6, “…they are not all Israel, which are of Israel”, makes clear Paul is operating with two definitions of “Israel”, which his earlier remarks on true Jews support:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God (Rom 2:27-29).​

Again he says this—that Gentiles are now brought into the Household of God, His true Israel:

…at [one] time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus… ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (Eph 2:12, 13, 19).​

In Hebrews 3:5, 6, Paul confirms what this house is:

Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.​

And what house was Moses faithful with regard to? And what house Christ a Son over? The house of Israel. Therefore Paul reasserts this in Gal. 6:16, “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” And John in Revelation (by the Holy Spirit) calls the capital of God’s eternal kingdom on New Earth, “the holy city, new Jerusalem” (Rev 20:2) and “that great city, the holy Jerusalem” (v 10).

All this to clarify that “children of the promise are counted for the seed” (Rom 9:8), and of the house of Israel.

So when you say above, “that's not how ‘Israel’ is being used in Romans 9-11”, you neglect Paul’s double use of the word. For at the time of his writing that, the temple still stood, and the (albeit invalidated by God) worship continued, the ethnic nation not yet once-and-for-all disbanded. But in A.D. 70 it was. And so “all Israel shall be saved” is not tautological, for Paul is establishing nuances meant to answer just such a charge, just as Peter did a couple of decades earlier when he said, “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people” (Acts 3:23).

________

To answer your earlier question, “Steve, Do you believe there will be a literal final battle?”

Both the premils (which I gather you still are, unless you have changed – and I see you are open enough to do in many areas) and the amils do hold to “a literal final battle”. It seems the question between us is whether there are two, as premils hold, a supposed Armageddon before the millennium (Rev 19:11-21) and another “final battle” at the end of it (Rev 20:7-10), or, for the amils, simply one: seeing Rev 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 as the same in parallel (not chronological) visions from differing “camera angles”.

So, yes, I do believe in a literal final battle. It is depicted in Revelation 7 times: in cameos at Rev 6:15-17 (when the kings and all unregenerate of earth come to realize they are no match for the King in His wrath), 11:7-12 (when they—under the symbolic guise of two witnesses—have finished their testimony, and are warred against by the beast, killed, then resurrected and raptured to Christ in the presence of their enemies), 13:7 (again, warred against by the beast—although this cameo involves the whole interadvental or millennial period, but consummates with the rapture at the end, which is not shown here), 16:12-14, 16 (which shows the gathering of the worldlings to “the battle of that great day of God Almighty”), 17:14 (a very brief mention of the battle and its outcome), Rev 19:11-21 (the most extensive depiction of it, alluding to its OT forerunner prophecy, Ezek 39:17, the gruesome calls to the “supper of the great God”—which was a standard threat in ancient times, such as Goliath said to David, and David back to him), and then Rev 20:9-10. All these are parallel accounts of the one final battle after the millennial period, at the very end of which battle the church is raptured unto their King, which is shown in 1 Thess 4:16-17,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Please note the voice from heaven, and the trump of God, which are repeated more specifically in 1 Cor 15:51-52,

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

It is at the last trumpet, when it sounds (Rev 11:15) that we shall be raised up.

With regard to the timing of things (I am thinking of “the last trump” here) consider the deeply insightful words of Dennis Johnson on the symbolism of Revelation in relation to time elements in it:

Just as the vision genre sometimes compresses vast historical eons into symbolic images that pass like the twinkling of an eye (see Rev. 12:1-5, which spans redemptive history from Genesis 3 to Acts 1), so a split-second in time may be expanded in visionary description and simultaneous events presented as successive, in order to help hearers to see different facets of Christ’s victory. –Triumph of the Lamb, p. 176.​

This idea may be helpful in making sense of things when they seem to be grouped very close together time-wise, namely the global persecution of the saints depicted a number of times in the Apocalypse, the destruction of Babylon, and the war of Armageddon – which is another angle-shot of the war on the saints, in the midst of which the Lord Jesus returns to a) call His people out of their graves and those still living from the earth to join Him in the heavens, and b) to devastate the earth-dwellers who abused and slew His bride; and then shortly after, to raise them from the dead to stand before Him to be judged and consigned to eternal torment.

Sorry to go on at such length here, but I like to be thorough when establishing a point.

The actual identity and destruction of Babylon is another topic I have been laboring in, and am working on another paper on that. Revelation is a profoundly rich book, a great gift to us by our Prophet-King.

Thanks Steve, I have learnt from this, especially, your explanation of the true Israel.
 
Hello Ademola, glad to be of help!

For those who struggle to make sense of the Biblical data regarding eschatology / the end times, again I recommend Dean Davis' book
, The High King of Heaven. One of its great merits is making complex matters really simple and clear (as can be seen by his remarks on Historic Premillennialism in post #13), and he does this throughout the book, not only by sound teaching, but in examining the other erring views as well. This is because his one of his main objectives is to lay out the New Testament's method of interpreting Old Testament prophecies concerning the kingdom of God; that is, he lets Jesus and His apostles interpretive methods (called hermeneutics) determine how we should understand Scripture, which is an eminently sound approach. Okay, the book is sort of long, but the ease of reading and comprehending well make up for that.

Former premil pastor (and now amil),
Dr. Sam Storms, said of Dean's book, “The most sweeping and comprehensive book on eschatology that I've ever encountered. The scope of this book is simply breathtaking.” (It was fourth in Storms' "Best Ten books of 2013".) That's quite a recommendation for a book that makes a hard topic (because of the confusion that abounds) easily accessible.
 
The Nile And The Euphrates Are Drying Up: Both Rivers Are In The News And Both Rivers Are In The Bible (An Inevitable Famine Is Plaguing The Muslim World) - Walid Shoebat

Citing the findings of the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) sponsored by NASA and the German Aerospace Centre, he notes that between 2003 and 2009, the Tigris-Euphrates basin comprising Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and western Iran “lost groundwater faster than any other place in the world except northern India”.

And we ALL know that Walid Shoebat is a reasoned reporter not known for hysterics. :)
 
Thanks for the link, Perg--and the grain of salt you serve with it. Still, his takes on the geopolitics of water-sharing and anticipated famines are of interest, for the issues are real.
 
Jacob, what would the literal reading look like when realized?

Rev 16:12-14 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

Would not "literal" involve modern Iraq and the Euphrates by it? But the imagery is from the prophetic and visual vantage of Palestine. When we in America or Europe or the UK look east, we see China and the Asian countries. If the locale of the vision is literal, would not the players
– the dragon, beast, false prophet, and frog-like devils – also be literal, and visible? And how come the "kings of the east" then morph into the "kings of the earth and of the whole world"?

The literal reading is fraught with (it seems to me) insurmountable exegetical difficulties.

I was thinking about this. This is more of a linguistic/semantic observation and I don't think any major interpretation hinges on it. What would a literal "beast" denote? What does the word "beast" mean? Does it mean a furry, horns and hoofs type of creature? Maybe, but that's not usually how the word is used? I say that I go "beast mode" when I do deadlifts, and I think I am being "literal."

My point is that literal readings can be literary readings as well. For example, Christ/John tells me that A symbolizes B, I take the terms in the equation literally, otherwise I am not able to make the symbolic connection.
 
Hello Jacob,

The general amil view of the beast in Revelation points to an anti-Christian political-military entity, which was Rome in John’s day, but may refer to like entities in the following centuries. The “great whore” that sits on the beast in Rev 17:3 is thought of as world culture—economic, legal, religious-philosophical, arts, entertainment—in opposition to God. Concerning her we are told,

The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. . . . And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Rev 17:15, 18).​

As was the case with pagan Rome, its culture of economic exploitation and resulting luxury was made possible by its alliance with the military-political might of Rome = symbolized by the whore sitting atop the beast.

The thing about beast governments is that the power may switch from one to another very swiftly, as (going back to the origin of beast imagery) power switched overnight from Babylon to Medo-Persia, and beast status went from one to another.

Another thing: the beast may refer to a government generally, but also to the leader of a government—a personification of it, as was the case with Nebuchadnezzar and also Cyrus.

What rattles some amils about me a little is that my interpretation gets more specific than the pure idealist view permits, although we must remember that we amils today are “modified idealists” or “eclectic” (per Greg Beale), and there are no hard and fast lines drawn. With my understanding of sorcery as used in Revelation I pinpoint entities and events they don’t see. My views re sorcery haven’t been refuted, nor are they unbiblical or unconfessional, but the admins don’t like or agree with them (and it’s too hard to moderate discussions, I’ve been told) and I can’t bring them up in full here, on pain of deletion.

Which may be for the better, as I now devote my time and energy to writing papers off-board, and I’ll have them in my book, which’ll be the main vehicle of dissemination. I’ve had years of peer-review and critique on the subject here at PB which has been extremely helpful, and for which I’m grateful.

Back to the beast, it’s a fascinating subject—with all its complexities of interpretation—and over the years I have moved fully to the amil modified idealist view; earlier I had been a default premil (that was the view everywhere around me, and I knew nothing else). To me, nothing else holds up save this amil view, given the New Covenant hermeneutic principles exercised by the Lord and His apostles and the NT Scripture. Everything else runs afoul them.
 
Hello Jacob,

The general amil view of the beast in Revelation points to an anti-Christian political-military entity, which was Rome in John’s day, but may refer to like entities in the following centuries. The “great whore” that sits on the beast in Rev 17:3 is thought of as world culture—economic, legal, religious-philosophical, arts, entertainment—in opposition to God. Concerning her we are told,

The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. . . . And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth (Rev 17:15, 18).​

As was the case with pagan Rome, its culture of economic exploitation and resulting luxury was made possible by its alliance with the military-political might of Rome = symbolized by the whore sitting atop the beast.

The thing about beast governments is that the power may switch from one to another very swiftly, as (going back to the origin of beast imagery) power switched overnight from Babylon to Medo-Persia, and beast status went from one to another.

Another thing: the beast may refer to a government generally, but also to the leader of a government—a personification of it, as was the case with Nebuchadnezzar and also Cyrus.

What rattles some amils about me a little is that my interpretation gets more specific than the pure idealist view permits, although we must remember that we amils today are “modified idealists” or “eclectic” (per Greg Beale), and there are no hard and fast lines drawn. With my understanding of sorcery as used in Revelation I pinpoint entities and events they don’t see. My views re sorcery haven’t been refuted, nor are they unbiblical or unconfessional, but the admins don’t like or agree with them (and it’s too hard to moderate discussions, I’ve been told) and I can’t bring them up in full here, on pain of deletion.

Which may be for the better, as I now devote my time and energy to writing papers off-board, and I’ll have them in my book, which’ll be the main vehicle of dissemination. I’ve had years of peer-review and critique on the subject here at PB which has been extremely helpful, and for which I’m grateful.

Back to the beast, it’s a fascinating subject—with all its complexities of interpretation—and over the years I have moved fully to the amil modified idealist view; earlier I had been a default premil (that was the view everywhere around me, and I knew nothing else). To me, nothing else holds up save this amil view, given the New Covenant hermeneutic principles exercised by the Lord and His apostles and the NT Scripture. Everything else runs afoul them.

Could you point me to your resources RE sorcery? I am interested in what you have to say.
 
Hi Jacob, here are three from my Dropbox folder. An additional note about the beast and the harlot as I see it: in the Empire of Chaldean Babylon and in the Roman Empire, although both of these "world-empires" were far-flung in their extent and control, they both had a headquarters nation and city. With Babylon it was the great city Babylon, and with the Roman Empire it was Rome. I posit the same phenomenon with the Babylon of the end time—it has a headquarters. This is something I develop. Currently I am working on Revelation 9, the fifth and sixth trumpets, correlating a number of different commentators thoughts on the connection between the fifth and sixth trumpets and the sixth bowl, which is the final battle. As with Daniel's prophesying the appearance of Antiochus Epiphanes and his devastating the temple, worship, and people of God—warning and preparing them for major trouble to come—so the same sovereign and comforting God has graciously done with us regarding the final days of the end.

What some amils—who like to keep things "idealized", i.e., general and non-specific—don't like about my approach is that I assert the Lord has given us markers so as to identify entities in the Revelation given to John, for our preparation and comfort, if so be that things fall apart in our time....or the time of our children and grandchildren, even as He gave sufficient information to the saints in the time of Antiochus. With a slight bit of attitude I have asked, “Does God give only academicians and seminarians insight and understanding? May He not use even donkeys?”

SORCERY, A Vocabulary Word For 2015

New Insights in Amillennial Eschatology [2015]


The Fate of Babylon, a study in determining the identity and demise of Babylon in John’s Apocalypse [2014]
 
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