How are disciples made?

[Deleted member 7239]

• Many churches have “making disciples” in their mission statement, some have a designated “Pastor of Discipleship”, some encourage each Christian to “make disciples” by mentoring a young or less mature believer. Is this just a misuse of the term “discipleship” or are we talking about two different things here. I would like to hear what the PB has to say.

• Do you believe the means of making disciples is the word, sacrament, and prayer alone or is discipleship something that each Christian should be participating in by “making disciples”— or is it both?

 

[Andrew P.C.]

There is nothing wrong with the older teaching the younger. I’m not sure what you mean by misuse. The minister and elders are to “make disciples”.

What are they to do? “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20).

 

[Deleted member 7239]

By misuse of the term, I mean calling the older teaching the younger “disciple-making” or “one-on-one discipleship”.

 

[Joshua]

Discipling is characterized by the Head of the Church as:

1. Going,
2. Baptizing,
3. Teaching whatsoever things Christ has commanded.

This is to be carried out directly by teachers in the church (Matthew 28, Eph. 4), and indirectly by the support, prayers, service, and giving of all the people of God, according to place, station, and ability.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

So you would agree that meeting with and mentoring younger or less mature believers isn’t “making disciples”.

Meeting with and encouraging younger believers and pointing them to obey Christ and his word is keeping the Great Commandment, but isn’t the Great Commission.

 

[Jack K]

It's good for us to encourage and learn from each other, especially when more mature believers can come alongside less mature ones. This is not the same as the spiritual authority held by elders, although there may at times be some similarities or overlap.

As for what you decide to call this: it doesn't matter so much. The fact that Jesus spoke of "making disciples" when describing the apostles' mandate does not mean a word like "discipleship" may never be used in other contexts as well. Like most words in most languages, it will develop a range of meanings and contexts. Trying to limit its usage to only one meaning/context is not likely to be fruitful because language seldom works that way. And this word is not so prevalent in the Bible or central to the gospel that we have to go out of our way to define, limit, and defend exactly what is a biblical understanding of it—if there even is just one biblical usage.

Instead, focus on ideas (like the idea that ordained men have certain responsibilities that others don't, if that's your concern). When you speak, explain your use of the word so that your meaning and context are clear to others. And don't worry too much if the word gets used in different ways by others; clarify the idea they mean to convey, and deal with that.

 

[earl40]

And this word is not so prevalent in the Bible or central to the gospel that we have to go out of our way to define, limit, and defend exactly what is a biblical understanding of it—if there even is just one biblical usage.

The problem is that most have misdefined the use of "making disciples" in Matthew, and this colors what they think they are called to do so far as a vocation. Twist this one scripture in Matthew, and a slew of mistakes follow that is evident for all to see, especially in the USA. Even in our Reformed congregations we have RE's thinking they are making disciples.

 

[Herald]

Jesse, one of the things that used to bother me was discipleship classes. You go to the class and then you are magically discipled. The church has done its part, now you are responsible for your continued growth. That's how I used to view these programmed attempts at discipleship. Over the years I have come to understand that discipleship has a beginning but no end, at least not in this life. Discipleship is attached at the hip to sanctification. Paul told the Philippians, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:6). We are a work in progress. During this journey, God will use many ways to help us "die to sin and live to righteousness" (1 Pet. 2:24). Notable among these ways is the ministry of the local church. If an older saint comes alongside you, whether long term or short term, that may be beneficial to both of you. It is all part of becoming more and more like Christ.

 

[BG]

I have always wanted to be a part of a church where there is real discipleship but I am not sure they exist, or if they do I have never seen one.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I have always wanted to be a part of a church where there is real discipleship but I am not sure they exist, or if they do I have never seen one.

I think our definition of discipleship is my original point. What do you mean by "real discipleship"?

 

[Herald]

I have always wanted to be a part of a church where there is real discipleship but I am not sure they exist, or if they do I have never seen one.

Bill, what do you mean by "real discipleship"? Your own confession states:

WCF Chapter III

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Discipleship is part of the Spirit working sanctification in our lives, as we become more like Christ. No church is perfect in this life, as is no believer. The believer's attitude towards obedience and conformity to Christ has as much to play with that of the local church. I'm not sure what your experience is, but I would be careful not to present a negative view of discipleship to a brother who is seeking godly counsel.

 

[BG]

Bill not sure why you think I was negative about discipleship, my point was no one really does it, or if they do I personally have never seen it. If you have seen some place where it is taking place please let me know I may be interested in moving there.

 

[arapahoepark]

I think Bill is getting at the notion of some older gentleman (or lady) dearly befriending someone from the church and takes them under their wing so to speak. I.E. an intimate mentor relationship. I am also curious as this seems to be thing now.

 

[Polanus1561]

Should this not be done by fathers (Dt 6)?

Now if there are young men who do not have beliver parents, I feel churches should establish a program of sorts..

 

[Herald]

Bill not sure why you think I was negative about discipleship, my point was no one really does it, or if they do I personally have never seen it. If you have seen some place where it is taking place please let me know I may be interested in moving there.

Bill, do you think discipleship is something that has to be done? All of us are disciples. All of us that attend a bible believing church are under the ministry of the Word. We participate in the sacraments (ordinances for my Baptist friends). These are things that should help strengthen our faith. If we have a mentoring relationship with other believers who help build into our lives, that is a good thing. If we're looking for some type of formal discipleship program we may be looking at the wrong thing.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I would think that part of the commission to the church to make disciples would be instruction to children, new believers, and others who have never yet received it- instruction in the catechism and the subordinate standards, to begin. Then, as has been mentioned, attendance on the means of grace is part of discipleship, as well as instructions in Scripture for older women to train younger married women, for instance. Aren't these the basic ways the church fulfills its mandate to make disciples (along with evangelism and baptism, of course). I'm rambling!


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[BG]

Bill are you saying that worship and discipleship are the same thing? I believe there is some overlap but they are different.

Maybe this will help you understand what I am saying. I have a friend who is dying of cancer and I don’t really know what to say to this brother to comfort him. I find myself searching the Bible to try to find a magic verse that will in some way bring comfort. Most of the time I just tell him we are praying for him. The odd thing is most of the time he comforts me by telling me he is okay with dying and that he is just waiting on the Lord. I find myself totally unprepared for this task and I feel some guilt about it. Please don’t mistake what I’m saying I’m not blame shifting here it was my responsibility to be prepared for this but it was also the churches job to help prepare me for this also. Does your church teach you to be prepared for these kinds of situations? This is just one of the many things that I think that the Churches should be teaching people along with the confession, systematic theology, How to Pray, how to study the Bible, greek and Hebrew Basics, apologetics, evangelism, how to be a husband or wife, how to be a parent, how to be a friend, how much to tithe, how to deal with your sin, how to deal with depression, even biblically sound principles for budgeting, anger management, conflict resolutions,you get the point.

Am I off base here?

 

[earl40]

I would think that part of the commission to the church to make disciples would be instruction to children, new believers, and others who have never yet received it- instruction in the catechism and the subordinate standards, to begin. Then, as has been mentioned, attendance on the means of grace is part of discipleship, as well as instructions in Scripture for older women to train younger married women, for instance. Aren't these the basic ways the church fulfills its mandate to make disciples (along with evangelism and baptism, of course). I'm rambling!


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Which "commission" are you speaking of? I ask because of course older ladies are to train younger ladies what is becoming of being in Christ (no doubt a "lesser" commission?), though I would not say this is The Great "Commission" given by Jesus in Matthew 28.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Which "commission" are you speaking of? I ask because of course older ladies are to train younger ladies what is becoming of being in Christ (no doubt a "lesser" commission?), though I would not say this is The Great "Commission" given by Jesus in Matthew 28.

Yes sorry, I could have been more clear (I knew I was rambling!) I meant that the great commission to make disciples of all nations is fulfilled by the evangelizing, baptizing, and teaching and indoctrination performed by the ordained ministers of the gospel. I guess you could think of those things mentioned in the epistles- older women training younger to love their husbands and children, fathers bringing up children in the fear and nurture of the Lord, etc as lesser commissions within "making disciples" but should never ever be confused with what Christ meant in Matthew 28.

 

[zsmcd]

This sounds a bit like straw grasping to me.

The same can be said about ministers. Ultimately, it is God who does the baptizing and teaching, so does that then mean that ministers do not actually make disciples but only God himself?

I just don' think it helpful to say "only ministers can disciple" unless all you mean is "only ministers can baptize and teach in a public official capacity." This may be true but even then it is straw grasping.

How are those men placed in their offices? God uses his Church to call men to the office in which they serve the Church by baptizing and teaching. The officers of the Church are representatives of the Church to God and of God to the Church.
So in a real way the whole Church is baptizing and teaching through their representatives.

Further, every individual in the Church has a duty to teach, encourage, admonish, rebuke, etc. one another according to their gifts and abilities. This is especially true regarding those who are more mature in the faith. Discipleship is a life long and everyday process that we all take part in helping each other through.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Unfortunately, the modern "discipleship movement" has turned discipleship into a few courses to be taken and a few boxes to be checked, with the emphasis being on teaching people how to be a "soul winner" rather than on growing in godliness. At the same time, it is equally unfortunate that the language of "discipleship" is all but absent from many of the writings of those in the confessional traditions.

At one level, to speak of being a disciple is to speak of being a Christian. After all, Acts 11:26 demonstrates that the two terms are (or at least were) synonymous. To be a disciple is to submit oneself to the teaching and discipline (way of life) of the master so as to become like the master. To be clear: the goal of "discipleship" as a concept is to become like the master in every respect, not simply to learn from the master so that their knowledge and insight can inform and even merge with your own thinking to help make you a better person. As discipleship pertains to followers of Jesus, it means that we are seeking to become like Jesus in every respect. (This is why Paul speaks of Christ being formed in us, Gal 4:19, and that we are to grow up into Christ, Eph 4:15, etc.) Thus, what we mean by the term "discipleship" is pretty much equivalent with what we mean by the term "sanctification."

Still, I actually appreciate the word "discipleship" and the focus it brings on intentionality. We are not passive in our sanctification (Phil 2:12), but all too often we approach our faith with a degree of passivity if not ambivalence - we believe (or at least claim to believe) right things, avoid doing bad things, come to church, and then go about our lives the rest of the time. Yet the concept of discipleship forces us to remember that we are followers of Christ who are seeking to learn from him, to submit our lives to his way of life, so that we can become like him. Keeping things explicit, and intentional, keeps them in focus and in mind. Things that are assumed are soon neglected and then forgotten.

A key aspect of discipleship, and therefore church life, is life together. I do think it is a shame that many Christians are content to treat church like a chapel - a place to come together to have a religious worship service with no other real interaction or involvement. We learn by observing and interacting... and by imitation. This is why so often Paul calls on his readers to imitate his example, and the example of other godly people. This is how women are to teach others to love their husbands and children, etc. Church officers play an indispensable role in this process - much like football referees we are in the mix of it keeping everything in accordance with the rules, like shepherds, we keep the flock fed, protected, and moving in the right direction. But don't let that lull you into passivity: church officers, by their ministry, facilitate the ministry of the laity. After all, the 71 verses in the NT that include the "one another" language (ie., "bear one another's burdens") speak to far far MORE than simply having an elder or the pastor pray down a sick list during the worship service. The Bible emphasizes life together, and as we teach, model, correct, challenge, serve, irritate, disappoint, forgive, restore, and help one another, and yes, as we worship alongside each other, and as we do outreach together, we operate within the matrix God has appointed for us to become like Jesus.

 

[earl40]

Yes sorry, I could have been more clear (I knew I was rambling!) I meant that the great commission to make disciples of all nations is fulfilled by the evangelizing, baptizing, and teaching and indoctrination performed by the ordained ministers of the gospel. I guess you could think of those things mentioned in the epistles- older women training younger to love their husbands and children, fathers bringing up children in the fear and nurture of the Lord, etc as lesser commissions within "making disciples" but should never ever be confused with what Christ meant in Matthew 28.

I knew we were are the same page, and am happy you were able to clarify the position we take.

 

[earl40]

Unfortunately, the modern "discipleship movement" has turned discipleship into a few courses to be taken and a few boxes to be checked, with the emphasis being on teaching people how to be a "soul winner" rather than on growing in godliness. At the same time, it is equally unfortunate that the language of "discipleship" is all but absent from many of the writings of those in the confessional traditions.

At one level, to speak of being a disciple is to speak of being a Christian. After all, Acts 11:26 demonstrates that the two terms are (or at least were) synonymous. To be a disciple is to submit oneself to the teaching and discipline (way of life) of the master so as to become like the master. To be clear: the goal of "discipleship" as a concept is to become like the master in every respect, not simply to learn from the master so that their knowledge and insight can inform and even merge with your own thinking to help make you a better person. As discipleship pertains to followers of Jesus, it means that we are seeking to become like Jesus in every respect. (This is why Paul speaks of Christ being formed in us, Gal 4:19, and that we are to grow up into Christ, Eph 4:15, etc.) Thus, what we mean by the term "discipleship" is pretty much equivalent with what we mean by the term "sanctification."

Still, I actually appreciate the word "discipleship" and the focus it brings on intentionality. We are not passive in our sanctification (Phil 2:12), but all too often we approach our faith with a degree of passivity if not ambivalence - we believe (or at least claim to believe) right things, avoid doing bad things, come to church, and then go about our lives the rest of the time. Yet the concept of discipleship forces us to remember that we are followers of Christ who are seeking to learn from him, to submit our lives to his way of life, so that we can become like him. Keeping things explicit, and intentional, keeps them in focus and in mind. Things that are assumed are soon neglected and then forgotten.

A key aspect of discipleship, and therefore church life, is life together. I do think it is a shame that many Christians are content to treat church like a chapel - a place to come together to have a religious worship service with no other real interaction or involvement. We learn by observing and interacting... and by imitation. This is why so often Paul calls on his readers to imitate his example, and the example of other godly people. This is how women are to teach others to love their husbands and children, etc. The 71 verses in the NT that include the "one another" language (ie., "bear one another's burdens") speak to far far MORE than simply having an elder or the pastor pray down a sick list during the worship service. The Bible emphasizes life together, and as we teach, model, correct, challenge, serve, irritate, disappoint, forgive, restore, and help one another, and yes, as we worship alongside each other, and as we do outreach together, we operate within the matrix God has appointed for us to become like Jesus.

So may I ask humbly what exactly do you think a lay member of a church needs to do in what you call "church life"? I ask because in the current church I am a member of it encourages lay people to do things under the auspices of our local congregation, as if it is some type of super sanctified thing to do. I am growing tied of such and am grateful our Ministers can't figure out why most of the congregation do not take part of the "ministry" opportunities that are offered. If it sounds like I am ranting...yes it am (with as much grace I can muster),because if one takes a look around the person next to you in the pew they are beat from the other 6 days a week doing the things they are called to do outside the auspice of the institutional church. The entire missional church movement reeks, and I believe to high heaven.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I find it helpful and clarifying to think in terms of "what are the common duties of every lay member of Christ's church?" It will be the same duties; no lay-person's conscience should be assaulted with vague ideas that can't be found in the Bible that they are responsible for duties that belong to the ministry. The minister maybe has all the same duties a lay-person has, but a lay-person doesn't share in his ministerial duties. As laypeople we're to pray for our ministers, support them financially, and appreciate them and their unique burdens (and show it!). And then, we laypeople have our duties to be busy about- Scripture charges us to love fervently, accept one another, forgive one another, help one another, pray for one another, bear with one another, overlook faults in one another, and also to be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope I have. Nowhere in the Bible is a lay-person is charged with the task of teaching doctrine, which is what discipleship is. It certainly doesn't mean there can't be conversations that are helpful between two Christians or a Christian and an unbeliever of course.



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[Cedarbay]

Maybe this will help you understand what I am saying. I have a friend who is dying of cancer and I don’t really know what to say to this brother to comfort him. I find myself searching the Bible to try to find a magic verse that will in some way bring comfort. Most of the time I just tell him we are praying for him. The odd thing is most of the time he comforts me by telling me he is okay with dying and that he is just waiting on the Lord. I find myself totally unprepared for this task and I feel some guilt about it.

I will pray that you know ever more surely to trust in the Lord, Bill. He will give you direction from His word. I am deeply touched that you desire and are willing to visit a dying brother.

 

[Dachaser]

• Many churches have “making disciples” in their mission statement, some have a designated “Pastor of Discipleship”, some encourage each Christian to “make disciples” by mentoring a young or less mature believer. Is this just a misuse of the term “discipleship” or are we talking about two different things here. I would like to hear what the PB has to say.

• Do you believe the means of making disciples is the word, sacrament, and prayer alone or is discipleship something that each Christian should be participating in by “making disciples”— or is it both?

In my church, we rely upon both he Lord through those means that you mentioned to train and mature us up, cell groups, and also we have coaching/mentoring programs, where we are paired up to meet one with another on a weekly basis to go over concerns, share prayers, encourage each other etc.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

To "make a disciple" is nothing but "making a Christian." And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Act.11:26

A Christian isn't made in a day. The Twelve--and the many other disciples--were always disciples of Jesus. They followed Jesus, even unto death. They were constantly being formed in Christ's image. The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Lk.6:40

Judas Iscariot was a disciple. He quit, and he wasn't one anymore. There's a distinction to be made between what one is in the eyes of men, and what one is in God's eyes.

We were saved. We are saved. We are being saved. We will be saved to the uttermost. Who on earth is "fully formed?" No one. But what some have done to the word and idea of "discipleship" is separate it from coming to faith.

Then, they separate coming to faith from a kind of rudimentary Christian life--as though, in illustrative terms of our offspring, little children just kind of maintained in an "infancy stage" until they (maybe) woke up one day bored with that life and started the growth process.

But in this Christian-life model, keyed to decision making, some churches then set about getting the next decision as quickly as possible (others, are more laid back about it). That decision being: Now, you must decide to be a Disciple.

This "stage," then, involves three days or weeks or months or years (just like the Twelve Disciples!) of special programming. This is the equivalent of (or may involve at some point--middle/early/late) a "second blessing." It is "Advanced Christianity." Hey, not everybody goes to college, you know? Of course... probably you should at least take a few courses, amirite?

So (goes the theory) this isn't just church-and-Sunday-School. That's barely more than rudimentary Christianity. And, of course, most folk of this sort think that the Lord's Day gathering is kinda optional anyway. So, some people catch the church-scene once a month (on average). Others are so into it, they club every weekend.

So, discipleship is thought of by many as something beyond what is the born-again experience, and the Christianity experience. And, to top it off, discipleship is something that in this commonly held perspective, one graduates from. Now, I suppose, one is "like Jesus?" Actually, it's more akin to being "like my mentor."

In some apostolic-succession motif, this eventually gets back to "being like Jesus;" but the Man of Perfection is someplace safely back there in the mist, so one is not going to be too intimidated. If you're really special, you may even become a guru yourself, possibly even going further than your merely-human mentor (but of course, not challenging Jesus, safely above and beyond, a vague symbol of authority).

****************************

Once, as a seminarian, I was looking for some one-to-one mentorship. Please understand, I don't think there's anything wrong with mentors, even spiritual guides. Having a thoroughly Reformed upbringing, but in H.S. and (greatly) in college being introduced to the wider Christian world and their different use of terms, in trying to figure out what was meant generally by the language of "discipleship," I figured that was just typical Christianese for mentorship.

So, I asked a professor how he thought I might pursue a "discipling" arrangement for my individual benefit. He was rather stunned. I can understand now why. Why was I--a hopeful pastor--interested (so it sounded like) in getting initiated in a "discipleship" program? Either my language was confused ("evangelical" and unreformed); or else I should be someplace other than seminary.

I'd been a "disciple" being discipled since I was baptized. That was my formal, public acknowledgement as a Christian (in the eyes of men, anyway). I'd had nearly 30yrs of discipling by the time I asked my question. Hopefully, quite a bit of it stuck, which might have something to do with me being in seminary at the time.

I've been formally discipled by the ministry of the church. I've been informally discipled by my parents, even by Christian friends. I've been mentored in spiritual matters, particularly the pastoral. Today, I'm in a position to do some discipleship and mentoring, as needed, required, or asked.

We're all interested in one another: in the Christian life of the whole body and our part in it. Discipleship is regular, it's ordinary, it's formal and informal; it's like exercise. It is about all of us attaining to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Eph.4:13

 

[BG]

• Do you believe the means of making disciples is the word, sacrament, and prayer alone or is discipleship something that each Christian should be participating in by “making disciples”— or is it both?

Jesse, this is a great question. I think you are asking do we believe in the priesthood of the believer or the priesthood of the priest? Let me first state I have a very high view of worship the sabbath and the means of grace they are a vital part of healthy Christianity and not to be neglected. However, the real question we have to ask is who does the work of the ministry? If the work of the ministry is to be done by the Bishops only then Discipleship is just a meaningless title for people who show up on Sunday get their tickets punched and pay their money and go home. In Churches like this the Leaders see themselves as elite ivory tower scholars, who never tire of telling the people they are not ministers but wont lift a finger to minister themselves.

If on the other hand the work of the ministry is to be done by the priesthood of the believer then worship and the means of grace are the very things that fuel the work of the ministry. Worship on Sunday Discipleship on Monday. There are some problems with this view, the main one being it requires a lot from a minister. He has got to be a people person willing to be poured out like a drink offering, willing to give his time to shepherd the flock, go from house to house conducting Bible study’s, instructing people how to conduct family worship, counseling the sheep, and so on. **(side note) All the elders should be doing this or they should not be elders(end side note)**

Hope that is helpful it wont be popular.

You may want to check out Dr Matts Sermon series on ministry and ministers at a puritans mind.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Yes—The term “discipleship” can mean many things. Once our Sunday school teacher asked if any of us have been discipled, and only a couple raised their hands. We were all professing church members. This is a confusion of Christ’s call for us to be His disciples and what the Great Commission has already accomplished.

We are His disciples because he has regenerated us by his spirit and has assigned the church as the primary means to accomplish this. All members of the church play their part in their building up the body of Christ, especially those who are ordained in word & sacrament.


The issue I think is that the Lord’s supper & hearing the word preached isn’t really viewed as part of our discipleship. Personal discipleship is seen as greater than community discipleship. I don’t think this is what scripture intends the church to be like. Our “personal discipleship” along with our lives are the property of Christ and his church. We are not our own.

 

[arapahoepark]

Seems akin to this:
https://heidelblog.net/2016/11/church-or-conventicle/