Choosing a ST: Turretin or Bavinck?

[ChrisJuloya]

Hi,

I'm fairly new here in PB and have been blessed by the discussions. I think that is one of the reasons why I registered. I have read a lot in the forums about which ST to have and what is the best ST to have and all the other possible combinations, and I have gained a lot of knowledge from these threads just by reading your discussions.

However, I have not seen this question yet (if there is a thread regarding this, maybe you could point me to the thread please?), if you were to choose just one of these two heavyweights, which would you choose and why? Institutes of Elenctic Theology or Reformed Dogmatics. I also do somewhat consider Vos' Reformed Dogmatics, but if it was for a 3rd ST, I'd like to choose from the two above.

To give you more of an idea of what I have and read, I am about to finish Calvin's Institutes (currently to start on the chapter on the Lord's Prayer) and would have Berkhof's ST next.

Thank you all in advance for your answers and thoughts.

Grace and peace.

 

[timfost]

Bavinck

 

[ChrisJuloya]

Bavinck

Why would you choose Bavinck?

 

[RamistThomist]

Turretin gives you more analytical discussions about things like doctrine of God, God's foreknowledge, etc. Bavinck gives you more scope and interacts with more current philosophical movements. Although I am something of a Neo-Calvinist at times, I am leaning towards Turretin.

 

[timfost]

Why would you choose Bavinck?

Jacob took the words right out of my mouth when he said "Bavinck gives you more scope and interacts with more current philosophical movements."

Although I have not read either work in their entirety, Bavinck is very balanced and can make a technical subject devotional (e.g. Supra/infralapsarianism). The Prolegomena can also be used as an encyclopedia which covers much more than Turretin could due to where they fall in history.

However, you definitely can't go wrong either way.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I would go with Francis Turretin as he is more relevant to understanding the intellectual climate in which our confessional standards were written. Herman Bavinck is the best ST post-1800, who interacts skilfully with theologians past and (in his day) present, which makes it a tough call. In truth, I think that you need to read both of them.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I also do somewhat consider Vos' Reformed Dogmatics

I might actually be worth reading these volumes before moving on to either Turretin or Bavinck. It is generally wise to start with the easier material and then work your way up to the harder works. Geerhardus Vos's Reformed Dogmatics, while very good, is a bit more basic than either Turretin or Bavinck. You can also purchase the Kindle editions of the 5 volumes for a very small fee.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

Turretin.

See attached Table of Contents for teasers of the richness of its content.

I have checked the file table of contents and was really amazed and got excited just by looking at it. I think the question and answer format made it more appealing to me as it connects to how I think.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

I might actually be worth reading these volumes before moving on to either Turretin or Bavinck. It is generally wise to start with the easier material and then work your way up to the harder works. Geerhardus Vos's Reformed Dogmatics, while very good, is a bit more basic than either Turretin or Bavinck. You can also purchase the Kindle editions of the 5 volumes for a very small fee.

Don't you think there will be a bit of redundancy if I read Vos' ST after I read Berkhof's ST (since I already have it)?

*Also, I find it hard to read electronically. It makes me sleepy. The experience with books is different - just my personal opinion.*

 

[ChrisJuloya]

However, you definitely can't go wrong either way.

I wish I could have both. hahaha. But at this time, I am opting to just have one of the two.

 

[bookslover]

Reymond. Heh.

 

[py3ak]

If you need to understand the technicalities of the mainstream Reformed position over against objectors of many kinds, Turretin is the way to go. He defines the true state of the question between the Reformed and other points of view with great clarity and detail. There are theologians in Reformed churches who have disagreed with one point or another, but as a general rule in so doing they have become idiosyncratic.

If you need to follow a great, warm, and creative mind through the broad scope of Christian doctrine as it impressed itself upon an enormous intellect in dialogue with his own and to some extent all preceding ages, Bavinck is unmatched.

If you need a simple, clear, endlessly-referenceable distillation of Reformed dogmatics with particular emphasis on the Dutch line, Berkhof is the clear winner.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

If you need to understand the technicalities of the mainstream Reformed position over against objectors of many kinds, Turretin is the way to go. He defines the true state of the question between the Reformed and other points of view with great clarity and detail. There are theologians in Reformed churches who have disagreed with one point or another, but as a general rule in so doing they have become idiosyncratic.

If you need to follow a great, warm, and creative mind through the broad scope of Christian doctrine as it impressed itself upon an enormous intellect in dialogue with his own and to some extent all preceding ages, Bavinck is unmatched.

If you need a simple, clear, endlessly-referenceable distillation of Reformed dogmatics with particular emphasis on the Dutch line, Berkhof is the clear winner.

It makes want to have both.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I wish I could have both. hahaha. But at this time, I am opting to just have one of the two.

You can spend years digesting Turretin, and once he has whetted your appetite to know more, digging deeper with other resources after encountering his succinct and dense treatments of so many points of doctrine. It will be money well spent. Next to the Bible, his three-volume Institutes is my most treasured set of volumes pertaining to theology.

Turretin is not an easy read. If you are comfortable with Berkhof's Systematic Theology, you should be grounded sufficiently to tackle Turretin.

 

[TheInquirer]

As already noted, Turretin and Bavinck are just different,they complement each other due to differing styles, format, era, contemporary issues they address, etc. If you are short on cash, I might go Turretin and then the 1 volume Bavinck. I love Bavinck but there is a lot of interaction with philosophy to wade through.

They are both advanced reading. I would definitely make Berkhof your next stop.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

and would have Berkhof's ST next.

I would say Berkhof next (Eerdmans Ed is best) then Bavinck's Reformed Dogmatics , then when you are able Vos' Reformed Dogmatics [Bavinck and Vos compliment and reinforce each other nicely].

In both Iain Murray's and George Marsden's biography's, it is stated that Jonathan Edwards regarded van Mastricht's work as superior to that of Turretin. So I am a little cautious of Turretin given we have both Bavinck and Vos.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

I actually read a section from their STs from The Reformed Reader. He posted Turretin's and Bavinck's explanation on the kingdom(s).

Turretin, Institutes (Author slightly edited for length)
One kingdom of Christ is natural or essential. He is king over all creatures with glory and majesty equal to that of the Father and the Holy Spirit. This kingdom extends over all creatures and is founded on the decree of providence. This kingship is exercised by Christ inasmuch as he is God and the Logos. This kingship belongs to Christ by nature, which is why this kingdom is his natural kingdom.

The other kingdom of Christ is mediatorial and economical (that is, having to do with the economy of salvation). He exercises this kingship in a peculiar manner as God-man; it has everything to do with the church. It is founded upon the decree of election. It is called his mediatorial kingship because it is a dominion peculiar to the Mediator according to grace and salvation. God constituted Christ as King over the church. (Institutes of Elenctic Theology, 2:14.XVI.)

Bavinck, Dogmatics
“The kingship of Christ is twofold. On the one hand, it is a kingship of power (Ps 2.8-9; 72.8; 110.1-3; Matt 28.18; 1 Cor 15.27; Eph 1.21-22; Phil 2.9-11, etc). In order that Christ may truly be king over his people, the king who redeems, protects, and preserves them, he must have power in heaven and on earth, over Satan and the world. It is a kingship of power, subordinate to, and a means for, his kingdom of grace” (p. 371).

“On the other hand, the kingship of Christ is a kingship of grace (Ps. 2.6; Is 9.5-6; Jer 30.9; Ezek 37.24; Luke 1.33; John 18.33ff; Eph 1.22, etc). …For it is a kingdom of grace in which Christ rules by his word and Spirit. …It is the living Christ exalted to sit at the right hand of God who consciously and endowed with all powers gathers his church, defeats his enemies, and guides the history of the world to the day of his parousia” (Dogmatics, IV, p. 372).

Not sure if it was because he edited it for length, as what he has stated, but it was kind of easier for me to understand Turretin than Bavinck, at least in this post. What is really obvious for me as a difference is the jargon Turretin used compared to Bavinck. Turretin was kind of fluid in statements, while Bavinck, I felt there're too many immediate stops and again that's at least in this post.

So I didn't want to depend on these just yet and would like to hear from you guys before buying.

 

[RamistThomist]

More importantly, Turretin helps you *think* through an issue. He will spend pages telling you what the question is and is not asking.

 

[greenbaggins]

Read Vos first, then Bavinck, then Turretin, as going from the easiest to toughest read. Vos is actually the best of the three, in my opinion, though they are all three tremendously good stuff, and you wouldn't really go wrong reading them in any order. The only thing is that you'd better have a decent background in philosophy to read Turretin. If you don't, you won't know what he is talking about, many times. Turretin is the most precise, Bavinck the most comprehensive, and Vos the most incisive.

 

[Dachaser]

Read Vos first, then Bavinck, then Turretin, as going from the easiest to toughest read. Vos is actually the best of the three, in my opinion, though they are all three tremendously good stuff, and you wouldn't really go wrong reading them in any order. The only thing is that you'd better have a decent background in philosophy to read Turretin. If you don't, you won't know what he is talking about, many times. Turretin is the most precise, Bavinck the most comprehensive, and Vos the most incisive.

Would Turretin though be firmly based in his time, and most of his discussion involve what was going on in theology of that time? My first exposure to reformed theology was the ST of Hodge, and found him hard to follow at times, due to him taking time to discuss current issues of the time?

 

[ChrisJuloya]

Great insights! Is it true that Vos' is very good in Biblical Theology that it shows in his RD?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Vos's Reformed Dogmatics is much easier to read than his Biblical Theology.

 

[RamistThomist]

While Bavinck's "Grace restores nature" scheme is impressive, Turretin is the most powerful thinker the Reformed tradition has produced.

 

[ChrisJuloya]

Read Vos first, then Bavinck, then Turretin, as going from the easiest to toughest read. Vos is actually the best of the three, in my opinion, though they are all three tremendously good stuff, and you wouldn't really go wrong reading them in any order. The only thing is that you'd better have a decent background in philosophy to read Turretin. If you don't, you won't know what he is talking about, many times. Turretin is the most precise, Bavinck the most comprehensive, and Vos the most incisive.

While I wish I could get all three, and I really do, would Calvin's Institutes and Berkhof's ST be enough as preparation/overview for Bavinck/Turretin?

 

[RamistThomist]

While I wish I could get all three, and I really do, would Calvin's Institutes and Berkhof's ST be enough as preparation/overview for Bavinck/Turretin?

Berkhof is a preparation for anything. Calvin is mandatory reading, but some of his arguments meander and they are easy to lose track of.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

While I wish I could get all three, and I really do, would Calvin's Institutes and Berkhof's ST be enough as preparation/overview for Bavinck/Turretin?

Yes I believe so. But make sure you have the Berkhof edition that includes his "introduction to systematic theology".

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Read Vos first, then Bavinck, then Turretin, as going from the easiest to toughest read. Vos is actually the best of the three, in my opinion, though they are all three tremendously good stuff, and you wouldn't really go wrong reading them in any order. The only thing is that you'd better have a decent background in philosophy to read Turretin. If you don't, you won't know what he is talking about, many times. Turretin is the most precise, Bavinck the most comprehensive, and Vos the most incisive.

Do you think the best plan of attack would be to read Berkhof FIRST as he would give the background necessary for Bavinck and Vos. The Eerdmans edition of Berkhof's Systematic Theolgy includes his prolegomena. Actually in this Eerdmans edition, Richard Muller argues that the absence of a prolegomena in Vos etc did create unfortunate theological distortions. Would it be fair to say Bavinck is superior in this respect?

I note that Vos wrote his Reformed Dogmatics when he was fairly young. It is a pity he did not revise it later in life after he had read Bavinck, and after his own wonderful Biblical Theology had been published. To have Vos' work with a prolegomena, and including his Biblical Theology would be a treat indeed. I guess I am a bit like John Bunyan - I am in a dream but will wake soon

 

[ChrisJuloya]

Yes I believe so. But make sure you have the Berkhof edition that includes his "introduction to systematic theology".

Oh. This is the one I have.

The Banner of truth edition.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Oh. This is the one I have.

You can get the introduction to the ST but it is an extra cost to you. RHB have it for half price https://www.heritagebooks.org/produ...ic-theology-westminster-discount-berkhof.html

 

[Dachaser]

Berkhof is a preparation for anything. Calvin is mandatory reading, but some of his arguments meander and they are easy to lose track of.

Isn't it held that Berhof was summary of Bavinck thought, while Hodge was a summary of Turrentin's?
And Calvin is easier to read for me in his commentaries, as His Institutes to me was at times hard to follow his train of thought. Again, maybe due to him relating to the times and situations he was writing into?