Is The Tithe For Today?

[MW]

Of course it is all the Lord's and to be used with that in mind, but we do not actually give all of it to Him or the church directly.

This only indicates that we fall short of God's perfect standard, not that God's standards are lessened to accommodate what we are able to do by way of obedience.

 

[MW]

I'm convinced that many of the folks who argue against the tithe as being obligatory do so because they want to justify their stinginess.

It is just as easy for those who believe in the obligation of the tithe to feel like they have done their duty so that nothing more ought to be required of them.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Of course it is all the Lord's and to be used with that in mind, but we do not actually give all of it to Him or the church directly.

This only indicates that we fall short of God's perfect standard, not that God's standards are lessened to accommodate what we are able to do by way of obedience.

Would this imply that any money given to something other than your local church is sinful?

CT

 

[MW]

Would this imply that any money given to something other than your local church is sinful?

The unstated premise in this question, when understood as a response to the idea that everything is to be for God, is that the local church equals God -- a premise I must reject.

 

[DonP]

Of course it is all the Lord's and to be used with that in mind, but we do not actually give all of it to Him or the church directly.

This only indicates that we fall short of God's perfect standard, not that God's standards are lessened to accommodate what we are able to do by way of obedience.

Would this imply that any money given to something other than your local church is sinful?

CT

I think he talks funny to. probably from hanging upside down all day down under.

I think he might mean that even the buying of food and paying rent and all we do are equally spiritual works, there is no secular work to the Christian and all is to be done to the Lord with the same zeal and holiness.

Am I close ArmourBearer?

so what do you trade? Stock?

 

[MW]

I think he might mean that even the buying of food and paying rent and all we do are equally spiritual works, there is no secular work to the Christian and all is to be done to the Lord with the same zeal and holiness.

Am I close ArmourBearer?

That is a part of it. The main point is that our Father in heaven grants us an earthly allowance. The point of an allowance is not to give a child freedom to indulge himself, but to orientate him towards faithfully managing the things he is given in life. The whole of what God gives us is to be wisely invested in our eternal future. If we are faithful in these little things He will give us charge of greater things. The mindset we should be developing is one in which we spend all our money according to eternal values rather than present enjoyments.

 

[DonP]

I think he might mean that even the buying of food and paying rent and all we do are equally spiritual works, there is no secular work to the Christian and all is to be done to the Lord with the same zeal and holiness.

Am I close ArmourBearer?

That is a part of it. The main point is that our Father in heaven grants us an earthly allowance. The point of an allowance is not to give a child freedom to indulge himself, but to orientate him towards faithfully managing the things he is given in life. The whole of what God gives us is to be wisely invested in our eternal future. If we are faithful in these little things He will give us charge of greater things. The mindset we should be developing is one in which we spend all our money according to eternal values rather than present enjoyments.

I like that !! So is the much things later the ruling or judging people on the new earth and angels ??1 Cor 6:3
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels?
NKJV

 

[SolaScriptura]

I'm convinced that many of the folks who argue against the tithe as being obligatory do so because they want to justify their stinginess.

It is just as easy for those who believe in the obligation of the tithe to feel like they have done their duty so that nothing more ought to be required of them.

You are absolutely correct.

 

[kalawine]

With all due respect gentlemen... I'm reading this thread and anxiously awaiting some Scripture text... from either side.

 

[DonP]

My scripture was all at the top in this post

Do you need more than this?

Where is the temple and Levites to bring it to?????????????????

Stewardship of all God given resources and cheerful (not under compulsion) giving In my humble opinion.

I didn't read the other thread first.

No now days you wait for the theonomists to set up a city of refuge and take it there.

General Equity.

Wow this kind of Pharisaical thinking almost makes me want to go alllll the way to where many of my Bib Theol friends would say, all the 10 commandments as delivered to Israel the nation have been abrogated !

As long as we understand the moral law they described has always been and is still a rule of life for believers.

And of course lawmakers today are free to adopt any of their laws if seen as best and nothing better or more applicatory to our nation would better suit.

And they should be consistent with the General Equity or basic ideas and purposes of the OT laws.

Weren't the laws to be instructive of God and His nature as well as just safeguards for a society.

So 2 Cor 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."

10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. NKJV

Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? NKJV

Mark 12:42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood." NKJV

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
NKJV
But I don't see 10% mentioned.

 

[kalawine]

Do you need more than this?

Where is the temple and Levites to bring it to?????????????????

Stewardship of all God given resources and cheerful (not under compulsion) giving In my humble opinion.

I didn't read the other thread first.

No now days you wait for the theonomists to set up a city of refuge and take it there.

General Equity.

Wow this kind of Pharisaical thinking almost makes me want to go alllll the way to where many of my Bib Theol friends would say, all the 10 commandments as delivered to Israel the nation have been abrogated !

As long as we understand the moral law they described has always been and is still a rule of life for believers.

And of course lawmakers today are free to adopt any of their laws if seen as best and nothing better or more applicatory to our nation would better suit.

And they should be consistent with the General Equity or basic ideas and purposes of the OT laws.

Weren't the laws to be instructive of God and His nature as well as just safeguards for a society.

So 2 Cor 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."

10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. NKJV

Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? NKJV

Mark 12:42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood." NKJV

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
NKJV
But I don't see 10% mentioned.

Thanks for correcting me. Please allow me to phrase my statement as I should have before.

Can anyone produce any Scripture text which more directly pertains to how the tithe does or doesn't carry over from the Old to the New Testament?

Personally, I've always considered the subject to be quite foggy. I see nothing clearly passing the tithe from the Old Testament to the "collection" in the New. But then, I'm not very well studied on this subject.

 

[puritanpilgrim]

With all due respect gentlemen... I'm reading this thread and anxiously awaiting some Scripture text... from either side.

Do you need more than this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceMaker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Koster View Post
Where is the temple and Levites to bring it to?????????????????

Stewardship of all God given resources and cheerful (not under compulsion) giving In my humble opinion.

I didn't read the other thread first.
No now days you wait for the theonomists to set up a city of refuge and take it there.

General Equity.

Wow this kind of Pharisaical thinking almost makes me want to go alllll the way to where many of my Bib Theol friends would say, all the 10 commandments as delivered to Israel the nation have been abrogated !

As long as we understand the moral law they described has always been and is still a rule of life for believers.

And of course lawmakers today are free to adopt any of their laws if seen as best and nothing better or more applicatory to our nation would better suit.

And they should be consistent with the General Equity or basic ideas and purposes of the OT laws.

Weren't the laws to be instructive of God and His nature as well as just safeguards for a society.

So 2 Cor 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."

10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. NKJV

Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? NKJV

Mark 12:42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood." NKJV

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
NKJV
But I don't see 10% mentioned.

 

[DonP]

Well I was hoping those showed it didn't. Or they would have said be sure to give your tithe and any extra offerings you want. or something. ??

Does anyone have texts that would show the tithe does continue?

 

[kalawine]

Well I was hoping those showed it didn't. Or they would have said be sure to give your tithe and any extra offerings you want. or something. ??

Does anyone have texts that would show the tithe does continue?

I think you are correct in assuming that that is what is needed.

 

[MW]

If express Scriptural statement is required as to the Levitical nature of the tithe, Hebrews 7:5 suffices. If any are left in any doubt as to the meaning of this statement and the repercussions for New Testament worshippers, John Owen's exposition of this verse should make the matter clear.

 

[TomVols]

Some quick replies, not meant to be argumentative:

1) It was an old covenant requirement
2) The New Testament does not teach the Tithe

Lots of things were taught in the OT that are not necessarily taught in the NT. Where is the tithe abrogated?

3) The New Testament teaches A) All of our lives belongs to the Lord B) Give unto the Lord generously (there is no 'fixed amount')

Does this by its nature exclude the tithe? How?

4) Those who try to keep the tithe today cannot because in the OT it was much more than 10% it also involved argicultural offerings (in othet words it does not transfer well culturally.

I think this is a problematic statement. You could dismiss a lot by saying things don't transfer well culturally just because of a dissonance here and there.

5) Teaching the Tithe as 'law' is legalism and brings God's people under law.

I've heard this used for teaching all sorts of things. Witnessing, preaching, RP, etc. It can be used as a crutch argument for whatever you want to oppose.

I provide these just for learning's sake. Again, I'm not endorsing any of these replies. I await further discussion and hope it is a growing tool for us all.

 

[kalawine]

I'm afraid you can't use this one...

2 Cor 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."

Here's why I say that. The 2 Corinthians 9 passage seems to be speaking of taking up a special offering from the Corinthians for the Jerusalem Church; not a tithe for the local Church. The heading in the online ESV version says, "The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem." Of course we know that headings aren't Divinely inspired. But to keep reading between the heading and verse six that you begin with, Paul calls it "the gift you have promised."

5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to go on ahead to you and arrange in advance for the gift you have promised, so that it may be ready as a willing gift, not as an exaction.

I'm not completely sold on the tithe for today myself. But I do believe that it is a tougher subject than some would have us believe.

 

[DonP]

Here's why I say that. The 2 Corinthians 9 passage seems to be speaking of taking up a special offering from the Corinthians for the Jerusalem Church; not a tithe for the local Church. The heading in the online ESV version says, "The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem." Of course we know that headings aren't Divinely inspired. But to keep reading between the heading and verse six that you begin with, Paul calls it "the gift you have promised."

I don't see any difference what they did with the collection.

Do you think they normally used it to pay rent on their stained glass window cathedrals?

This is one of the normal things offerings were used for.

 

[kalawine]

Some quick replies, not meant to be argumentative:

1) It was an old covenant requirement
2) The New Testament does not teach the Tithe

Lots of things were taught in the OT that are not necessarily taught in the NT. Where is the tithe abrogated?

3) The New Testament teaches A) All of our lives belongs to the Lord B) Give unto the Lord generously (there is no 'fixed amount')

Does this by its nature exclude the tithe? How?

4) Those who try to keep the tithe today cannot because in the OT it was much more than 10% it also involved argicultural offerings (in othet words it does not transfer well culturally.

I think this is a problematic statement. You could dismiss a lot by saying things don't transfer well culturally just because of a dissonance here and there.

5) Teaching the Tithe as 'law' is legalism and brings God's people under law.

I've heard this used for teaching all sorts of things. Witnessing, preaching, RP, etc. It can be used as a crutch argument for whatever you want to oppose.

I provide these just for learning's sake. Again, I'm not endorsing any of these replies. I await further discussion and hope it is a growing tool for us all.

I really appreciate this post. I think it helps me to see the real problem which is (as you said) "where is the tithe abrogated?"

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 11:48:34 EST-----

Here's why I say that. The 2 Corinthians 9 passage seems to be speaking of taking up a special offering from the Corinthians for the Jerusalem Church; not a tithe for the local Church. The heading in the online ESV version says, "The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem." Of course we know that headings aren't Divinely inspired. But to keep reading between the heading and verse six that you begin with, Paul calls it "the gift you have promised."

I don't see any difference what they did with the collection.

Do you think they normally used it to pay rent on their stained glass window cathedrals?

This is one of the normal things offerings were used for.

Well, at the Church I attend, we don't tithe to another Church in another city.

 

[Whitefield]

Do you think they normally used it to pay rent on their stained glass window cathedrals?

This is a bit inflammatory isn't it. Maybe it was to pay the pastor.

 

[puritanpilgrim]

4) Those who try to keep the tithe today cannot because in the OT it was much more than 10% it also involved argicultural offerings (in othet words it does not transfer well culturally.
I think this is a problematic statement. You could dismiss a lot by saying things don't transfer well culturally just because of a dissonance here and there.

Tom you ducking the question. The Old Testament tithe was way more complex than the giving of ten percent in the plate. How would you transfer eating some of you tithe before the Lord: Deu.12:17-19:

17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts. 18 Instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the LORD your God at the place the LORD your God will choose—you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns—and you are to rejoice before the LORD your God in everything you put your hand to. 19 Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land.

Deut 14:22-26

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

 

[KMK]

Would this imply that any money given to something other than your local church is sinful?

The unstated premise in this question, when understood as a response to the idea that everything is to be for God, is that the local church equals God -- a premise I must reject.

I really don't think anyone is arguing that the church equals God. What is being debated is whether there is an objective standard for supporting the local gospel ministry.

As an aside, what was the objective standard for giving in the OT?

 

[DonP]

Well, at the Church I attend, we don't tithe to another Church in another city.

Your church doesn't take any money it receives to support missions, poor people in town, the presbytery, the presbytery missions, the GA or any other church or mission.

How un presbyterian, and well I hope your church is a mission staion being supported by other churches then.

We do support other new churches and the needy from our offerings and the scriptural quote shows us we should.

I wouldn't care if it was a " Special " offering. That is the point, we no longer just tithe. We give offerings as there is a need.

This is the NT example and the tithe was abrogated with all other OT laws and types.Feasts, etc. It was Judaism.
Why would anyone assume it would hold over? It is not part of the 10 commands or moral law. Confessionaly we would say the general equity of the practice could be followed but not necessarily the letter

 

[KMK]

But KMK are you saying liberty caused you bondage?

I don't accept your premise that, if indeed there is no requirement for tithing, there is 'liberty'. Liberty from what? Everyone on this thread who argues against the tithe has stated that, under the NT, we are obliged to bring more than 10%.

Besides, that was true in the MC. As has been noted in other posts, there were Levitical tithes, poor tithes, festival tithes, firstfruits and the "don't forget the widow and the fatherless" commands. That is much more than 10%.

It seems to me nothing has changed between the MC and New. God's people are to direct all of their blessings for godly purposes. The question at hand is how much is owed to the gospel ministry.

BTW, I am not a theonomist and I don't believe the tithe is necessarily required in the theonomic system. I could be wrong.

 

[KMK]

Confessionaly we would say the general equity of the practice could be followed but not necessarily the letter

Is it possible that the general equity of 10% = 10%?

 

[DonP]

Do you think they normally used it to pay rent on their stained glass window cathedrals?

This is a bit inflammatory isn't it. Maybe it was to pay the pastor.

No, I was serious. What expenses did they have then? Yes maybe pay a pastor. So what would they have done with the rest of the money?

Didn't the church already have deacons and understand the need to care for their poor? Why would they not care for the poor of a neighbor church just as much .

Wow this would seem the height of apostate independency to me. Maybe I am missing something here I don't mean to be rude or sarcastic but I just can't imagine a Christian church would not think it a normal part of their life to help other churches and Christians and missions and yes even Samaritans as Christ taught the Pharisees. I know this was for an individual but if we as a collective of individuals who are to give to Samaritans I would think the church would see it their mission too.
Every church I have ever been in gives to strangers who come by in need.
1 John 3:17-19
17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.
NKJV

I am just thinking this is all normal part of the use of our gifts.

I wonder if theonomic thinking and a focus on laws could give one a tendency to think one church would not normally support another and we should have a specific minimal guide we are to give now in the NT when Paul spent so much time trying to show the OT laws are gone.

Someone asked was the tithe civil or ceremonial law.
It was a part of worship ?? I would think ceremonial so even to most theonomists I would think they would see the tithe as a rule is gone and only the GE remains as an example to us.

So would one seek to give 10% yes, but not as a law, as by love and grace and seek to give even more if they could.

I wonder if the widow Christ praised gave 10%?? I am doubting she had 10% left over after eating. But she trusted God and gave all she had left trusting Him to provide tomorrow .

This is NT giving. I am sorry guys but I am just shocked I have never heard such talk in all my life.

 

[MW]

I really don't think anyone is arguing that the church equals God. What is being debated is whether there is an objective standard for supporting the local gospel ministry.

As an aside, what was the objective standard for giving in the OT?

Regrettably the church is put in the place of God simply by the terms in which the issue is discussed.

During the carnal ordinances of the OT one tenth was given to the Levites (not the church). I take it that the other tithes are not the subject of discussion.

 

[DonP]

Confessionaly we would say the general equity of the practice could be followed but not necessarily the letter

Is it possible that the general equity of 10% = 10%?

No that is not possible.

The GE = General Equity. One may decide in his own heart and before God that in following GE he chooses to give 10% 5% 50%
He does not give a tithe and then offerings. He gives offerings.
He may choose to allot a specific amount to his church and then give extra elsewhere or to special offerings.

A session or GA I suppose could decide the GE would suggest that its members give 10% or more as the Lord prospers them but I think they go too far if they did. They would do best to say, it is a GE matter, go to God with it, here is an example from the OT we will teach you, so we conclude it is wise to give 10% or more but we cannot legislate this.

We walk by the Spirit, by faith, not as the pharisees and talmud would have us. Then we would not need a Holy Spirit and walk of faith if we had all the laws spelled out for us.
We would not have to go to God for guidance.

And most of all it is the heart in the actions god wants not just proper compliance to a rule. So god sets things so we have to seek Him and walk in faith not knowing the "Right" answer.

Its getting late and I am being a bit short and matter of fact instead of more polite so I am going to bed. I doubt we can solve it all tonight.

 

[KMK]

I really don't think anyone is arguing that the church equals God. What is being debated is whether there is an objective standard for supporting the local gospel ministry.

As an aside, what was the objective standard for giving in the OT?

Regrettably the church is put in the place of God simply by the terms in which the issue is discussed.

During the carnal ordinances of the OT one tenth was given to the Levites (not the church).

I see what you are saying. This is what tithers assume, I think, is that when you bring your tithe to the church it is for the purpose of supporting the gospel ministry, not 'the church'. Perhaps there are tithers who bring their tithe to the church and think their duty is done and expect mercy for the poor, fatherless and widows to come out of their tithe. That would not be agreeable with the OT or the NT.

 

[KMK]

Confessionaly we would say the general equity of the practice could be followed but not necessarily the letter

Is it possible that the general equity of 10% = 10%?

No that is not possible.

The GE = General Equity. One may decide in his own heart and before God that in following GE he chooses to give 10%...

?????? So is it possible or not? You contradict yourself. But, I understand. It is late.