Solo Christo
Puritan Board Freshman
Plain and simple: can you TRULY love your neighbor as yourself and support capital punishment?
Capital Punishment, simple question...
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Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
YEAH... the Bible prescribes capital punishment (death penalty) for murder. It is not even worth debating, because Christian opponents of it inevitably have to face up to the normative authority of Scriptures, and that the law provides that penalty. It is because men are created in the image of God that the law demands the penalty for murder is death. Murder is such an offense to God that murderers are cut off from society.
To challenge the death penalty on Christian doctrinal grounds is kind of absurd and analagous to liberal justices saying the death penalty is unconstitutional, when an available penalty for treason prescribed in the Constitution is the death penalty.
The state has power of the sword, and can avenge wrong-doing such as murder by capital punishment following due process, testimony of witnesses, and sufficient evidence.
To challenge the death penalty on Christian doctrinal grounds is kind of absurd and analagous to liberal justices saying the death penalty is unconstitutional, when an available penalty for treason prescribed in the Constitution is the death penalty.
The state has power of the sword, and can avenge wrong-doing such as murder by capital punishment following due process, testimony of witnesses, and sufficient evidence.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Speaking of the death penalty -- I always find liberals to be a strange bunch on such issues...
* They get all sanctimonious about the life of mass-murderer on death row or some cop killer like Mumia-Abu Jamal, and simultaneously think that the death penalty is reserved for the unborn (e.g. abortion) because they are an inconvience. They strangely treat abortion as some great blessing.
* They get all sanctimonious about the life of mass-murderer on death row or some cop killer like Mumia-Abu Jamal, and simultaneously think that the death penalty is reserved for the unborn (e.g. abortion) because they are an inconvience. They strangely treat abortion as some great blessing.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
I think the problem can be solved when we understand that commands from the bible cannot be taken as soundbites that stand alone, but must be understood in the context of the entire bible.
Hence, love your neighbour as yourself does not mean we allow our neighbour to do anything or everything at our expense. If you are going on holiday with your family, 'love your neighbour as yourself' does not mean you are compelled to ask him along. God's word is plain that he has made certain people rich and others not rich. 'Love your neighbour as yourself' does not compel the rich to give away money until they are equal with everyone else.
It is the bible that helps us explain and definite what exactly it means to love your neighbour. And since the bible specifically says that there is a proper time for killing, be it in capital punishment or in war, we know that is not inconsistent with loving your neighbour. (by God's definition, not ours)
Hence, love your neighbour as yourself does not mean we allow our neighbour to do anything or everything at our expense. If you are going on holiday with your family, 'love your neighbour as yourself' does not mean you are compelled to ask him along. God's word is plain that he has made certain people rich and others not rich. 'Love your neighbour as yourself' does not compel the rich to give away money until they are equal with everyone else.
It is the bible that helps us explain and definite what exactly it means to love your neighbour. And since the bible specifically says that there is a proper time for killing, be it in capital punishment or in war, we know that is not inconsistent with loving your neighbour. (by God's definition, not ours)
Lest someone claim Levitcus is "in the Old Covenant", prior to the giving of the Law, God said to Noah:
Gen 9:6
Whoever sheds man's blood ,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.
NKJV
and elsewhere:
Rom 13:2-4
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
NKJV
God commands the life of a man be taken in the case of murder BECAUSE HE HAS A HIGH VIEW OF LIFE and those who bear His image. Those who dare to take another man's life by murder, God commands that their life be taken. It is upholding the sanctity of life by upholding the punishment that God commands for its wanton destruction.
Thus, when magistrates execute a murderer, they are acting as God's ministers to execute wrath on him who practices evil. By claiming that by obeying a God-ordained statute (the execution of murderers) a magistrate is, in fact, disobeying the law to love your neighbors pits God against Himself.
Gen 9:6
Whoever sheds man's blood ,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.
NKJV
and elsewhere:
Rom 13:2-4
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
NKJV
God commands the life of a man be taken in the case of murder BECAUSE HE HAS A HIGH VIEW OF LIFE and those who bear His image. Those who dare to take another man's life by murder, God commands that their life be taken. It is upholding the sanctity of life by upholding the punishment that God commands for its wanton destruction.
Thus, when magistrates execute a murderer, they are acting as God's ministers to execute wrath on him who practices evil. By claiming that by obeying a God-ordained statute (the execution of murderers) a magistrate is, in fact, disobeying the law to love your neighbors pits God against Himself.
They literally turn the world on its head don't they. One of the very lame things they say is that we Christians are duplicitous in arguing against abortion but arguing for the death penalty. Larry King even once said: "I won't take Christians seriously about abortion until they fight to abolish the death penalty."
What utter folly! As I note above, the death penalty is very much an affirmation of the sanctity of life. We believe life is sacred within and without the womb. Those that destroy it, God says "How dare you take that which bears my image" and commands their execution from His Word.
The Roman Catholic view on the death penalty is but one more example of how much error they are steeped in.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
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Puritan Board Professor
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
I would comment, but Ryan and others have so beautifully stated my position. I would like to add this:
When is punishment criminal?
When is punishment criminal?
Before answering the question it must be pointed out you are making a common (liberal) error in your application of "love your neighbor."
Specifically, there is a difference between me (a person) of how I should love and treat my fellow man and the State/government's response to a man in capital offences. The scriptural mandates about murder have already been aptly pointed out by others here.
Just like the "turn the other cheek" slogan is used in error. When a believer has been insulted (slapped), he should act in a certain way. When a country, for example, is under attack (say WWII) that country should act in a certain way.
Let's not get confused on how individual Christians should behave in life and God-ordained "governing authorities" respond to crimes.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
For a concrete example. Let's say that I have 10 neighbors in houses around me. One of those neighbors murdered another one of the neighbor's wife. To truly love the widowed husband as well as protect the other remaining neighbors, I and they should seek justice. So there are really three separate questions.
1. Whether or not the person should be punished.
2. Who should punish them
3. The penalty of the punishment.
That may seem obvious and common sensical but oftentimes there is a blurring and much straw has been burned in the past by floating between the three.
1. I would hope that everyone would agree that the rapist/murderer should be punished. But to use the above question, can we reconcile love and punishment? Is it ever loving to meet out punishment? Or better yet...Can a loving God punish sin? Of course because He is infinitely holy and just. So it is possible. Love and justice can co-exist. One other thing to keep in mind is that no sin goes unpunished. It is either punished in Christ or in the person. So if we want to pardon the murderer/criminal without punishment then we are leaving the punishment on the victim and the victim's family. And to be biblical - the whole society.
2. Who should punish? This is the Romans 12 and Romans 13 tension. (not really a tension). Individuals are to leave it up to God to punish evil doing and not take it upon themselves. Romans 13 then shows that God has given the sword to the civil magistrate to carry out the vengenance.
3. What is the punishment? Ultimately this is the question. But too often this is the question that is asked without first adequately establishing the prior two. If it is in God's character to punish evil and to be ultimately just, and if the magistrate is to not bear the sword in vain then where do we derive our penology or just punishments? I would offer that the Bible is the only place that offers a transcendent, immutable, just norm for penalties. Was God unjust in prescribing the penalties in the OT? Of course we won't say that He was unjust. So we are really left with 2 options. Following them or finding an explanation as to why we shouldn't. The latter can take the form of a pick-n-choose smorsgasboard or hopefully a biblical hermeneutic. The latter has been attempted and here we stop before we end up rehashing the theonomy debate again.
So:
can we TRULY love your neighbor as yourself and support capital punishment? Yes. And in doing so you are loving the perfectly holy, just God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind by desiring to see His will carried out.
For a great look at this in action, take time to read Francis Nigel Lee's recounting of his sharing the gospel with his father's murderer while at the same time demanding justice be done. It is a concrete, real-life example of what I hope I described above.
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/slayer.htm
Also for an engaging, thought provoking read, skim through Gary North's book: Victim's Rights
http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2146_47e.htm
1. Whether or not the person should be punished.
2. Who should punish them
3. The penalty of the punishment.
That may seem obvious and common sensical but oftentimes there is a blurring and much straw has been burned in the past by floating between the three.
1. I would hope that everyone would agree that the rapist/murderer should be punished. But to use the above question, can we reconcile love and punishment? Is it ever loving to meet out punishment? Or better yet...Can a loving God punish sin? Of course because He is infinitely holy and just. So it is possible. Love and justice can co-exist. One other thing to keep in mind is that no sin goes unpunished. It is either punished in Christ or in the person. So if we want to pardon the murderer/criminal without punishment then we are leaving the punishment on the victim and the victim's family. And to be biblical - the whole society.
2. Who should punish? This is the Romans 12 and Romans 13 tension. (not really a tension). Individuals are to leave it up to God to punish evil doing and not take it upon themselves. Romans 13 then shows that God has given the sword to the civil magistrate to carry out the vengenance.
3. What is the punishment? Ultimately this is the question. But too often this is the question that is asked without first adequately establishing the prior two. If it is in God's character to punish evil and to be ultimately just, and if the magistrate is to not bear the sword in vain then where do we derive our penology or just punishments? I would offer that the Bible is the only place that offers a transcendent, immutable, just norm for penalties. Was God unjust in prescribing the penalties in the OT? Of course we won't say that He was unjust. So we are really left with 2 options. Following them or finding an explanation as to why we shouldn't. The latter can take the form of a pick-n-choose smorsgasboard or hopefully a biblical hermeneutic. The latter has been attempted and here we stop before we end up rehashing the theonomy debate again.
So:
can we TRULY love your neighbor as yourself and support capital punishment? Yes. And in doing so you are loving the perfectly holy, just God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind by desiring to see His will carried out.
For a great look at this in action, take time to read Francis Nigel Lee's recounting of his sharing the gospel with his father's murderer while at the same time demanding justice be done. It is a concrete, real-life example of what I hope I described above.
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/slayer.htm
Also for an engaging, thought provoking read, skim through Gary North's book: Victim's Rights
http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2146_47e.htm
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
More Than 17 Years Later, Mumia Abu-Jamal Still Guilty
Execute Convicted Cop-Killer Mumia Abu-Jamal!
Justice for Slain Peace Officer Daniel Faulkner
Execute Convicted Cop-Killer Mumia Abu-Jamal!
Justice for Slain Peace Officer Daniel Faulkner
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Having established all of the above, the REAL QUESTION is how can you TRULY love your neighbor as yourself and NOT support capital punishment?
I agree with what everyone has been saying.
Though i think there is cause for us to remember that our modern justice systems are not the same as that of ancient israel as far as 'getting the right man' goes.
I certainly would think there needs to be some consideration before imposing the death penalty on offenses where we do not have a biblical precedent to do so.
Though i think there is cause for us to remember that our modern justice systems are not the same as that of ancient israel as far as 'getting the right man' goes.
I certainly would think there needs to be some consideration before imposing the death penalty on offenses where we do not have a biblical precedent to do so.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
You're right. Our modern justice systems aren't the same. Nobody get's justice these days. Remember the child rapist that got out after 60 days? I am so glad we live in Two Kingdoms.
Solo Christo
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks to all for your responses.
Solo Christo
Puritan Board Freshman
It is also interesting that in the Book of Acts Paul refuses not to die if found guilty of the charges brought against him.
Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
Capital Punishment is for Justice. This isn't about who a person loves or does not love. It is what Justice Demands.
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