Celebrating Christmas

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So Paul is saying that it is okay for me to keep the Jewish holy days or are you limiting the context and missing the point?

He said it was okay to keep the days to the Lord. You say he is talking about days that have been abrogated. Were they not abrogated BEFORE Paul wrote that it was okay to keep them?

The application of this text goes further than the immediate context. As a believer I can keep ANY day as a Holy Day unto the Lord.

Let us all also remember that the RP is not Scripture, but the application of Scripture. So lets not elevate the RP to the status of inspired text. Doing so leads us to condemn those who are not violating any Scripture by keeping a day to the Lord.

Phillip
 
Originally posted by pastorway
So Paul is saying that it is okay for me to keep the Jewish holy days or are you limiting the context and missing the point?

He said it was okay to keep the days to the Lord. You say he is talking about days that have been abrogated. Were they not abrogated BEFORE Paul wrote that it was okay to keep them?

The application of this text goes further than the immediate context. As a believer I can keep ANY day as a Holy Day unto the Lord.

Let us all also remember that the RP is not Scripture, but the application of Scripture. So lets not elevate the RP to the status of inspired text. Doing so leads us to condemn those who are not violating any Scripture by keeping a day to the Lord.

Phillip

Only God has the authority to declare a day 'holy.' It is not given to men or the Church to declare a day 'holy' that God has not declared to be holy.

See Brian Schwertley's treatment of this passage:


Common Reasons Given by Christians for Celebrating Christmas

I. Doesn't Romans 14:5-6 allow Christians to celebrate Christmas?

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it" (Rom. 14:5-6).

1. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, was addressing a situation unique to the early church. There were Jewish believers who "regarded the holy days of the ceremonial economy as having abiding sanctity."33 The "days" spoken of in Romans were days commanded by God in the old economy. Paul is "referring to the ceremonial holy days of the Levitical institution."34 Virtually all commentators concur with this interpretation.35 Paul allows for diversity in the church over the issue of Jewish holy days because of the unique historical circumstances. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the ceremonial aspects of the law (e.g., animal sacrifices, Jewish holy days, circumcision, etc.) were done away with. Yet prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, the apostles allowed certain practices by Jewish Christians as long as no works-righteousness was attributed to these practices. In Acts 21:26, we even encounter the apostle Paul going to the Temple "to announce the expiration of the days of purification." Jewish believers who were already accustomed to keeping certain holy days of the Mosaic economy were allowed to continue doing so for a time. But once the Temple was destroyed, the canon of Scripture was completed, and the church had existed for a whole generation, these unique historical circumstances ceased. And even if this passage were still applicable to our present situation, it could not be used to justify Christmas, because these days were not "Christianized" pagan holy days nor arbitrary holy days set up by man. Therefore, if this passage were still applicable to our situation, it could only be used to justify the private celebration of Jewish holy days by weak Jewish believers. It cannot be used as a justification for man-made days or pagan days which God has not commanded.

2. Not only does this passage not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas, it most certainly forbids holding Christmas services of any kind and having Christmas fellowships or parties. Paul allows for diversity in the church over this issue (i.e., Jewish holy days). Both parties are to accept each other for the sake of peace and unity in the church. Both parties believe that they are obeying the Word of God. "Compelled conformity or pressure exerted to the end of securing conformity defeats the aims to which all the exhortations and reproofs are directed."36 Therefore, it would be wrong for the weak Jewish believers to force the church to have a worship service in honor of a ceremonial holy day, because the strong Gentile believers would feel compelled to attend the public worship of God. Therefore, those who did celebrate Jewish holy days had to do it privately unto the Lord. Those who use this passage to justify celebrating Christmas would likewise be forced by Paul's injunction to keep the day a private affair. Thus, Christmas services and church Christmas parties would cease, for they violate the freedom of Christians not to celebrate such a day. Of course, Christmas, not being commanded by God and being a monument to idolatry, is forbidden, anyway.37

Pastors and elders who do authorize a Christmas service abuse their office. The pastor and governors of a church receive their authority from God. They are responsible to rule the church according to the Word of God. When pastors and elders authorize a special Christmas service, they do so on their own authority, because there is no warrant from the Word of God to do so. Therefore, in this one point they act no differently than the pope or a bishop. They intrude a human invention into the church. Those in the church who refuse to take part in a pagan-popish festival day, who refuse to worship God according to man's imagination, who refuse to worship God without divine authorization, are forced by the church leadership to remain at home instead of attending the public worship of God. Thus, in this point, many presbyters act like popes, prelates and tyrants over God's flock, because they take away the freedom we have in Christ to worship God as one body publicly "in Spirit and in truth" on the Lord's day.

Source: http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/xmas.htm
 
posted by Scott Bushey
Not to take any side on the issue, the day is in fact a present day Golden Calf and cluttered with idolatry.

True, but are we to hide in our homes, lock the doors, and pull the curtains just because the world abuses a day?

ANY day can be holy for the believer, because his observance of the day is to the Lord, regardless of what the world outside is doing.

If we refuse to call any day holy that the world abuses then every day of the week that has been named for a pagan false god cannot be holy.....

Anyone can NOT keep the day. Anyone can keep the day. We cannot use the Scripture to prove that anyone is sinning by keeping Dec 25 as a holy day. To do so means that we must be sure that the day(s) we observe have NEVER been used by any pagan for any special observance. We put ourselves in a very tiny box by claiming that it is wrong for a Christian to observe a day honoring Christ's birth.



[Edited on 11-22-04 by pastorway]
 
Phillip,
No, we should not lock ourselves up. Is the day a pagan day or a biblical day? If it is not a biblical day, and it is a pagan one, are we not to conform to the image of the world, especially in regards to things that , to us, have a spiritual connection? For instance, I have no issue with the 4th of July. We celebrate iit along with the world. I would have no problem with Christmas as long as I do not celebrate it in a spiritual way as it is not a spiritual holiday. Leave Christ out of it and I am fine. The day itself elevates itself to the level of idolatry; especially with children. My wife loves the day! I believe she is in a level of idolatry because of the impact it still has on her heart from when she wasn't saved.
 
that is really sad - take Christ out and it is a fine day.......you said, "Leave Christ out of it and I am fine." That violates 1 Cor 10:13 for starters. Everything we do is about Christ!

Reacting against obvious abuses never justifies legalism or the limiting of our liberty in Christ.

Phillip
 
Phillip,
Christ is my all. You know what I meant. It is a pagan holiday. As long as the pagans do not drag my Lord into it and degrade Him with their ridiculous notions of whom God is, I am fine with the day.
 
why give the day to the pagans? That is my point. If you give them Dec 25 they will have all 365......

Observing a day, any day, even Dec 25, to the Lord is not forbidden by Scripture.

Phillip
 
As a believer I can keep ANY day as a Holy Day unto the Lord.


That depends. Do you mean you are able to dictate to God which day is the Lord's Day? I would say a big "No" to that. If you mean "holy days" or "fast days" or "alms days" or whatever, absolutely. The more the better. But we cannot dictate the time (nor the menas, manner or mode - (i.e. the first 4 commandments)) that we will come to worship God. That is set down as a moral commandment which cannot be added to or taken away from.
 
I am not talking about worship on the first day of the week - I am talking about "holidays." A believer is free to observe any day he wants for the Lord. Or not. His choice. And he can't be condemned for either.

Phillip
 
If one can "keep" any day "holy," why not keep every day holy? How does one "keep" a day "holy" exactly?

What gives a man or a church the authority to declare a day holy that God's Word does not declare to be holy?
 
Originally posted by pastorway
posted by Scott Bushey
Not to take any side on the issue, the day is in fact a present day Golden Calf and cluttered with idolatry.

True, but are we to hide in our homes, lock the doors, and pull the curtains just because the world abuses a day?

ANY day can be holy for the believer, because his observance of the day is to the Lord, regardless of what the world outside is doing.

If we refuse to call any day holy that the world abuses then every day of the week that has been named for a pagan false god cannot be holy.....

Anyone can NOT keep the day. Anyone can keep the day. We cannot use the Scripture to prove that anyone is sinning by keeping Dec 25 as a holy day. To do so means that we must be sure that the day(s) we observe have NEVER been used by any pagan for any special observance.


[Edited on 11-22-04 by pastorway]


We arn't refusing to celebrate a day because a pagan celebrates it, we are refusing to sanctify it and celebrate it in the church as something hol, so by a man invented holiday will not interfere with our worshipping of the Lord.

We put ourselves in a very tiny box by claiming that it is wrong for a Christian to observe a day honoring Christ's birth.

Do we put ourselves in a very tiny box by claiming that it is wrong for a Christian to observe a mighty bull that honors God's power?
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The question that should be asked by one who desires to keep the Regulative Principle of Worship is: Is there Biblical warrant for these practices? The RPW requires positive Scriptural warrant for a worship practice to be lawful. Therefore, is there Scriptural warrant to use pre-written prayers and "litanies." The only thing that comes close to that which I can find in Scripture is the Lord's Prayer, which is both lawful in itself to say and a perfect model for our prayers. Therefore I find Biblical warrant for extemporaneous and patterned prayers, but not written form prayers. I can find no warrant for responsive reading in the Scriptures either. To the contrary, I find only warrant for ministers or those in training for the ministry to read the Scriptures out loud in public worship.

So you are saying that reciting written prayers in unison is not positively instituted. Would you please show me where extemporaneous prayer is positively instituted?

One of the problems I have seen the plagues those who hold to a rigid use of the RPW is that they are very prone to commit the fallacy building principles off of case examples. In this case, they might point to a case example of somebody offering an extemporaneous prayer, and then conclude, therefore, that extemporaneous prayer is positively instituted by God. But this reasoning is fallacious because it attempts to build universals off of particulars.

So I ask again, Andrew, where is extemporaneous prayer positively insituted by God, whether explicitly or by inference? I assure you that you will not find it anywhere in Scripture. Only "prayer" is commanded of us. Written prayer is still a prayer. Written prayers can even follow the pattern of the Lord's prayer. There is no "will worship" there at all.

Just an observation on my part: Having taken part in many RPW debates at this point, I fear that the reason many who herald themselves as Reformed and followers of the RPW oppose high church liturgy is not because the practices of written prayers and litanies are contrary to Scripture, but because the Anglicans, Lutherans, and Catholics do them. And everybody knows that if something is distinctive to them, we the Reformed must oppose it at all cost. I long for the day when I can say, "The Anglicans have a point here", without my Presbyterian and Baptist brethren sneering at me.
 
Originally posted by luvroftheWord
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The question that should be asked by one who desires to keep the Regulative Principle of Worship is: Is there Biblical warrant for these practices? The RPW requires positive Scriptural warrant for a worship practice to be lawful. Therefore, is there Scriptural warrant to use pre-written prayers and "litanies." The only thing that comes close to that which I can find in Scripture is the Lord's Prayer, which is both lawful in itself to say and a perfect model for our prayers. Therefore I find Biblical warrant for extemporaneous and patterned prayers, but not written form prayers. I can find no warrant for responsive reading in the Scriptures either. To the contrary, I find only warrant for ministers or those in training for the ministry to read the Scriptures out loud in public worship.

So you are saying that reciting written prayers in unison is not positively instituted. Would you please show me where extemporaneous prayer is positively instituted?

One of the problems I have seen the plagues those who hold to a rigid use of the RPW is that they are very prone to commit the fallacy building principles off of case examples. In this case, they might point to a case example of somebody offering an extemporaneous prayer, and then conclude, therefore, that extemporaneous prayer is positively instituted by God. But this reasoning is fallacious because it attempts to build universals off of particulars.

So I ask again, Andrew, where is extemporaneous prayer positively insituted by God, whether explicitly or by inference? I assure you that you will not find it anywhere in Scripture. Only "prayer" is commanded of us. Written prayer is still a prayer. Written prayers can even follow the pattern of the Lord's prayer. There is no "will worship" there at all.

Just an observation on my part: Having taken part in many RPW debates at this point, I fear that the reason many who herald themselves as Reformed and followers of the RPW oppose high church liturgy is not because the practices of written prayers and litanies are contrary to Scripture, but because the Anglicans, Lutherans, and Catholics do them. And everybody knows that if something is distinctive to them, we the Reformed must oppose it at all cost. I long for the day when I can say, "The Anglicans have a point here", without my Presbyterian and Baptist brethren sneering at me.

As you mentioned, prayer is commanded. Public reading in worship should be confined to the Scriptures. Reading and prayer should not be confounded. They are separate.

There is a reason why the Reformed oppose specifically Anglo-Catholic practices -- it is because they are contrary to God's Word.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
Since Pastor Way is a Reformed Baptist, I thought it might be profitable to quote the eminent Reformed Baptist C.H. Spurgeon on the subject of Christ-mass:

The following excerpt is from C. H. Spurgeon's Treasury of David, on Psalm 81, verse 4:

Ver. 4. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. It was a precept binding upon all the tribes that a sacred season should be set apart to commemorate the Lord's mercy; and truly it was but the Lord's due, he had a right and a claim to such special homage. When it can be proved that the observance of Christmas, Whitsuntide, and other Popish festivals was ever instituted by a divine statute, we also will attend to them, but not till then. It is as much our duty to reject the traditions of men, as to observe the ordinances of the Lord. We ask concerning every rite and rubric, "Is this a law of the God of Jacob?" and if it be not clearly so, it is of no authority with us, who walk in Christian liberty.

From a sermon preached by Spurgeon on December 24, 1871:

We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas. First, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be sung in Latin or in English. Secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Savior; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority. Superstition has fixed most positively the day of our Savior's birth, although there is no possibility of discovering when it occurred. ... It was not till the middle of the third century that any part of the Church celebrated the nativity of our Lord; and it was not till very long after the Western Church had set the example, that the Eastern adopted it. ... Probably the fact is that the "holy" days were arranged to fit in with the heathen festivals. We venture to assert, that if there be any day in the year, of which we may be pretty sure that it was not the day on which the Savior was born, it is the 25th of December. ... Regarding not the day, let us, nevertheless, give God thanks for the gift of His dear Son.
 
From a sermon preached by Spurgeon on December 24, 1871:

Ouch! That would really be a knife in the side of most Baptists I know that love Spurgeon and love celebrating Christmas in a very commerical, worldly way.

:2cents:
 
My two cents.

As someone who is still fairly new to the Reformed Faith even though I had been a nominal Christian for almost thirty something years, I find it amazing that every year at this time the subject of Christmas comes up and most people are divided on the subject as whether to celebrate it or not.
I have come to see that those who do not celebrate have a lot of good points and make a strong case for not wanting to keep the day and I can also see the point of those who do keep the holiday and can celebrate it in good conscience as they know the truth. What I can not understand is why this argument has to become a litmus test to see who is truly "Reformed" or not. I have been in other forums on the Internet where this comes up year after year and those who chose not to celebrate give the impression that they and they alone have some how arrived and are somehow more spiritual and closer to the throne of God than those who do keep the day.
I'm not against anyone who wants to keep from celebrating the day if they feel it is wrong but what I am against are those few who like to condemn others to make themselves look good
and cause division by their stand.

Let those who love Christ follow their own conscience and do as they feel is right.


Peace.



Tom
 
PublikN.gif



Merry Yuletide Popery

and Happy Hanukkah too!
 
Originally posted by Keylife_fan
My two cents.

As someone who is still fairly new to the Reformed Faith even though I had been a nominal Christian for almost thirty something years, I find it amazing that every year at this time the subject of Christmas comes up and most people are divided on the subject as whether to celebrate it or not.
I have come to see that those who do not celebrate have a lot of good points and make a strong case for not wanting to keep the day and I can also see the point of those who do keep the holiday and can celebrate it in good conscience as they know the truth. What I can not understand is why this argument has to become a litmus test to see who is truly "Reformed" or not. I have been in other forums on the Internet where this comes up year after year and those who chose not to celebrate give the impression that they and they alone have some how arrived and are somehow more spiritual and closer to the throne of God than those who do keep the day.
I'm not against anyone who wants to keep from celebrating the day if they feel it is wrong but what I am against are those few who like to condemn others to make themselves look good
and cause division by their stand.

Let those who love Christ follow their own conscience and do as they feel is right.


Peace.



Tom

I think that the holidays are a subject that folks get passionate about because there is a lot of emotional investment in them by those who celebrate and a lot of emotion felt by those who reject them on the basis of God's Word.

I don't believe anyone on my side of the debate, including myself (frankly, I have felt rather lonely in this debate), has the view that we are better than others who do celebrate December 25. I have attempted to approach this subject by propounding Scriptural truth spoken (I hope) in love with frequent reference to godly men of old who have addressed the same issue.

The point that I have been trying to make is that the Second Commandment and by extension the Regulative Principle of Worship (summarized by the WCF thusly: "But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture") do not give men liberty to approach God in worship in ways that He has not commanded. Christ-mass lacks Scriptural warrant and therefore it is not optional as to whether we celebrate it or not.
 
Originally posted by Keylife_fan
I'm not against anyone who wants to keep from celebrating the day if they feel it is wrong but what I am against are those few who like to condemn others to make themselves look good
and cause division by their stand.
Let those who love Christ follow their own conscience and do as they feel is right.

:ditto:

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
(frankly, I have felt rather lonely in this debate),

This after we shook hands because we agreed! :(

By the way, I just want to point out--sorry if this sounds corny (or sarcastic!)--that I love all you guys! I've tried to discuss Christmas with people and I always either get yelled or laughed at. I am SO glad to know people like you. You are a great comfort to me, and I thank God for you.
 
Here are some of my thoughts on some of the issues in this thread up to this point.

Concerning Christmas, my position, as stated before, is that it is permissible for Christians to celebrate Christmas. I believe to forbid Christians from celebrating Christmas in the name of the RPW is to go beyond Scripture and to unnecessarily bind the consciences of Christians, thereby undermining the principle itself.

Here is an interesting passage from the book of Esther 9:20-32:

Then Mordecai recorded these events and he sent letters to all the Jews who were in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus, both near and far, obliging them to celebrate the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same month, annually, because on those days the Jews rid themselves of their enemies, and it was a month which was turned for them from sorrow into gladness and from mourning into a holiday; that they should make them days of feasting and rejoicing and sending portions of food to one another and gifts to the poor. Thus the Jews undertook what they had started to do, and what Mordecai had written to them. For Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the adversary of all the Jews, had schemed against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is the lot, to disturb them and destroy them. But when it came to the king's attention, he commanded by letter that his wicked scheme which he has devised against the Jews, should return on his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows. Therefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. And because of the instructions in this letter, both what they had seen in this regard and what had happened to them, the Jews established and made a custom for themselves, and for their descendents, and for all those who allied themselves with them, so that they should not fail to celebrate these two days according to their regulation, and according to their appointed time annually. So these days were to be remembered and celebrated throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city; and these days of Purim were not to fail from among the Jews, or their memory fade from their descendents.

Then Queen Esther, daughter of Abihail, with Mordecai the Jew, wrote with full authority to confirm this second letter about Purim. And he sent letters to all the Jews, to the 127 provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, namely, words of peace and truth, to establish these days of Purim at their appointed times, just as Mordecai the Jew and Queen Esther had established for them, and just as they had established for themselves and for their descendents with instructions for their times of fasting and their lamentations. And the command of Esther established these customs for Purim, and it was written in the book.

Here in the book of Esther we have an example of the people of God instituting and celebrating annually the holiday of Purim. How is this any different from the celebration of Christmas??? This holiday was NOT positively instituted by God, but was devised by the minds of fallen humans... kinda like Christmas, right? But yet the celebration of Purim, which was, again, NOT instituted by God, is nowhere in Scripture condemned by God. God did not say to the Jews, "You are violating the RPW because I did not command you to create this holiday." This was a holiday that was in no way connected to the OT ceremonial system, so you cannot say that this day would have been permitted in the OT, but is no longer permitted today in the NT era. Purim is completely UNRELATED to the OT holy days!

So here is a Biblical example of those ol' Papists, the Jews, celebrating a man-made holiday. Based upon this passage alone I believe we can conclude that the celebration of man-made holidays is a practice that is permitted (though not required) by Scripture, and is thus not a violation of the RPW. So if you're going to argue against celebrating Christmas, you need to find a different argument besides, "Where are we commanded to celebrate it?" According to Scripture, we have freedom.

This is also relevant to the issue of the ecclesiastical calendar. The calendar does not add any new rituals or rites to the worship of God. All it does is direct our Scripture readings, songs, prayers, and sermons (all things that are commanded in Scripture) according to the life of Christ. Each of the ecclesiastical "holidays" are representative of different times in Christ's life (Lent represents Christ's sufferings, Advent represents Christ's coming into the world, etc.). If you have a problem with ordering your worship services throughout the year according to the life of Christ, then you should also have a problem when your pastor decides he wants to spend a year preaching through Romans, and then orders the music, prayer, and preaching around the themes of the book of Romans. There is no difference.

Concerning the RPW, I have a few criticisms. Of course, none of what I'm about to say will be taken seriously by truly Reformed folk, since what I am saying will appear as contrary to the WCF, which means it's automatically wrong. I will be called "not Reformed" more than once I'm sure, and I will be reminded that I'm at odds with Calvin and the Divines (which is funny, since most of you Sabbatarians have no problem telling Calvin and all the Continental Reformers that they were out to lunch on their doctrine of the Sabbath). But I assure you in return I will not pay attention to this particular criticism, since I believe the WCF needs work in some areas. Also, I'm not denying that worship should be regulated. I'm just questioning the way many people have tried to regulate it.

I have heard on more than one occasion that the whole "if it's not commanded, it's forbidden" principle is an application and extension of the second commandment, "You shall not make for yourselves any graven images." Now I certainly do not desire to overthrow the law of God, but I want to suggest that this line of reasoning as it is applied to the corporate worship of God is flawed.

First, it should be pointed out that because the second commandment is part of the moral law of God, it is therefore universally binding in all places at all times. Therefore, the second commandment applied just as much outside the church as inside. Now consider the issue of Exclusive Psalmody. EPers always argue that since God has (allegedly) only commanded the Psalms to be sung in corporate worship, that therefore the singing of uninspired hymns is forbidden in worship. But what about outside of corporate worship? When I'm in my car all by myself, am I permitted to sing an uninspired hymn to God worshipping him as I drive? I have never met an EPer that argued that uninspired hymns could not be sung in our "free time". But if the RPW is an application of the second commandment, and the second commandment applies to all of life, not just the church, then uninspired hymns are not to be sung EVER, not even in our free time.

Again, the point here is only to demonstrate that the way the RPW is being enforced is inconsistent and arbitrary. If the RPW is truly an application of the second commandment, it must also of necessity be applied to all of life, rather than just the corporate worship of God. If for corporate worship we must say, "We can only do what God has commanded", we must also say this of the rest of life as well. This means that not only during the corporate worship of God is written prayer a forbidden practice, but in our personal devotion time as well, which means that if we journal our prayers during our daily devotions we are breaking the RPW. If the RPW only applies to corporate worship, then does the command of Jesus against hatred (an application of the sixth commandment) only apply to corporate worship as well? Of course not. Let's not be arbitrary in our application of the law of God.

Second, the distinction between elements and circumstances is confusing and even arbitrary at times. Furthermore, God has nowhere in Scripture commanded us to make the distinction between element and circumstance, which means the principle undermines itself on this point. But I suspect that the reason the element/circumstance distinction was developed is because the rigid application of the whole "if it's not commanded, it's forbidden" principle is just flat unworkable to being with. The element/circumstance distinction gives it a bit more workability.

Also, nobody has shown me where God has commanded that we only pray extemporaneous prayers. Only mere assertions have been offered in response. To say that reading and praying are two different things that are to remain seperate, then what in the world is Psalm 51 doing in the Bible? And where does Scripture create this sharp distinction that seperates prayer from reading?

And anyone who thinks high church liturgy leads to dead worship has obviously never been to St Paul's PCA. It is not the outward that makes us filthy, but the inward. Liturgy is an expression of the transcendent nature of worship.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood Anglo-Presbyterian.

P.S. - To whom should I pay my fine of five schillings this Christmas?

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by luvroftheWord]
 
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by pastorway
I agree with LOTW!

:banana:

and Paul manata

:welcome: to the dark side Pastor Way. Next thing you know you'll be over at my house drinking beer and watching the Passion :lol: (just a joke).

...on Christmas Eve, with a nice cigar! (Don't even get me started on "The Passion" though :D)
 
Craig,

Most of your comments are self-condemning and therefore I will not continue to belabor the point. Suffice to say that in the matters under discussion where you disagree with the Second Commandment, the Regulative Principle and the Westminster Standards, I happen to agree. You seem to have a low view of Puritan worship and a high view of Anglican worship. That's your prerogative, but we are approaching worship in vastly different ways like ships passing in the night.

Regarding Purim, there is no comparison between Purim and Christ-mass. I submit Brian Schwerley's comments:

II. Didn't the Jews in the days of queen Esther set up a holy day not authorized in the law of Moses? Doesn't that example allow the church to set up a holy day (e.g., Christmas) not authorized in the Bible?

1. There is almost no resemblance between Christmas and Purim. Purim consists of two days of thanksgiving. The events of Purim are: "joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. . . and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor" (Est. 8:17; 9:22). There was no worship service. There were no levitical priestly activities. There were no ceremonies. The two days of Purim have much more in common with Thanksgiving and it's dinners than Christmas. Purim is certainly no justification for Christmas services. Purim resembles the special days of thanksgiving which are still allowed, and not the religious and ceremonial holy days of the Levitical system. In fact, the Westminster divines used Purim as a proof text (Est. 9:22) authorizing days of thanksgiving.38

2. Purim was a unique historical event in Israel's salvation history. The festival was decreed by the civil magistrate: the prime minister, Mordecai, and the queen, Esther. It was agreed to unanimously by the people. The occasion and authorization of Purim are inscripturated in the Word of God and approved by the Holy Spirit. The biblical imperative of no addition and no subtraction applies to man-made law and worship. It most certainly does not forbid the Holy Spirit from completing the canon of Scripture and instituting new regulations.

3. Christmas is intrinsically immoral because it is built upon the monuments of pagan idolatry. There is nothing wrong with a country having a day of thanksgiving for a special act of deliverance by God. But there is something very wrong when a corrupt church attempts to sew Christian cloth onto pagan garments. There is something very wrong when Protestants conspire with the corrupt church of Rome and use godly Mordecai as an excuse.
 
3. Christmas is intrinsically immoral because it is built upon the monuments of pagan idolatry. There is nothing wrong with a country having a day of thanksgiving for a special act of deliverance by God. But there is something very wrong when a corrupt church attempts to sew Christian cloth onto pagan garments. There is something very wrong when Protestants conspire with the corrupt church of Rome and use godly Mordecai as an excuse.

As I've said.........
 
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