Christianity and logic

[Scott]

Originally posted by Laura
That's very helpful, Jeff, thanks. I had no idea about the Greek root. The mention of absurdity reminds me: I as thinking awhile back that for even my Christian friends, what most amuses them is nonsense. I mean imagining situations that are utterly senseless, plotting ridiculous schemes just for the fun of it, etc. I'm not saying that it is in itself always reprehensible, but it's definitely something worth considering. Looking back a hundred years ago to what was considered humorous, it's telling how we've evolved. Then, comedy tended to make sense at the least, and was tasteful and intelligent at best. Now the weirder something is, the funnier; not merely in the sense of ironic, as in something you wouldn't expect, but things that have only the minimal basis in reality. Not to mention the more and more typical appeals to the basest desires of humanity for humor. I guess when we are in a world that seems increasingly to hate reason--except when it helps make the weaker argument appear the stronger, a la Sophist rhetoric--that's to be expected.

Laura: The good news is that scientists have it all figured out: see here.

 

[Magma2]

I'm reacting tongue-in-cheek to the touchy-ness of the several posters on this thread who seemed to ascribe "dangerous theology" to what I said. Logic, as we understand it, could not be eternally existing.

Why not? Why can't the law of contradiction, excluded middle not to mention identity be eternal? God did after all tell Moses to tell the people that "I Am" has sent him which is as good an expression of the law of identity as any I can think of.

God doesn't think the same way we do, because He uses no succession or syllogisms in His thought.

Seems to me that you are confusing logical sequence with temporal sequence.

All He thinks simply is. There are no premises and conclusions, deduction or induction, etc. within God's thought.

How do you know? So God doesn't know the implication of any premise since you say there are no premises in God's thought? How can that be?

So, like I said, God created Logic, the way in which we, as creatures, think in the likeness of God, who is completly rational - but on an altogether different level.

How do these different levels apply to the law of contradiction for example? Does LC apply to men but not to God? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Scott]

Time is conventional. Speaking in "time language" does not prove time, nor imply that one is presupposing time to exist. It is simply how we relate to our existence and one another within such existence.

It is more than language. I can't conceive a time not being. I think Bahnsen made a point like this in his series on Revelation.

BTW, I am not saying affirming one position or another. I just don't know how to think about what it mean for time to have a starting point.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"

Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3

No one has an answer for a simple question?

If I understand your question correctly, then yes.

Thank you...we just studied this question in afternoon class at church a coupld of weeks ago...it seemed to apply, but wanted to make certain I was making the right connection.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
I've provided scriptural support for my view. Do you care to share where you find this in scripture?

If God is to have any thoughts at all, we had better hope they be logical ones.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Do you really think God "thinks" in succession? That He - anthropomorphically speaking - sits around and rationalizes out things before acting, contemplating premises and conclusions, avoiding fallacious thought, etc? God's thinking simply IS. There is no process to it. This is common Reformed and Christian Dogmatic theology.

The knowledge of God may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He, in an entirely unique manner, knows Himself and all things possible and actual in one eternal and most simple act.

[...]

The knowledge of God differs in some important points from that of men. It is archetypal, which means that He knows the universe as it exists in His own eternal idea previous to its existence as a finite reality in time and space; and that His knowledge is not, like ours, obtained from without. It is a knowledge that is characterized by absolute perfection. As such, it is intuitive rather than demonstrative or discursive. It is innate and immediate, and does not result from observation or from a process of reasoning. Being perfect, it is also simultaneous and not successive, so that He sees things at once in their totality, and not piecemeal one after another.

Berkhof, Louis, Systematic Theology, p. 66.

If you still find me to be unScriptural (by implication of your statement above, which is most uncharitable), then so be it. I'm simply using Philosophy and Reformed Dogmatics in order to articulate my position, which is of course founded on the revelation of Holy Scripture. Otherwise, I wouldn't be propagating it, unless you find me to be a "dangerous" thinker.

Job 12:13 With God are wisdom and might; he has counsel and understanding.

Isa 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He does not faint or grow weary;
his understanding is unsearchable.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Scott

Time is conventional. Speaking in "time language" does not prove time, nor imply that one is presupposing time to exist. It is simply how we relate to our existence and one another within such existence.

It is more than language. I can't conceive a time not being. I think Bahnsen made a point like this in his series on Revelation.

BTW, I am not saying affirming one position or another. I just don't know how to think about what it mean for time to have a starting point.

Can you show me where Time exists? What is it? Can you buy it at the store? That is what I'm getting at.

 

[Magma2]

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Do you really think God "thinks" in succession? That He - anthropomorphically speaking - sits around and rationalizes out things before acting, contemplating premises and conclusions, avoiding fallacious thought, etc? God's thinking simply IS. There is no process to it. This is common Reformed and Christian Dogmatic theology.

Again, in my opinion you confuse temporal succession with logical order. Does God immediately (hopefully this immediately makes you feel better) know every implication to every premise and is the architecture of His mind logic or is it not? I would think it would have to be if God can said to be the truth. But it seems to me that based on what you've said God is beyond logic, hence it would follow that God is not a rational being. in my opinion there are many problematic implications to such a position and while it's not particularly "dangerous" it just doesn't make much sense nor does it have any biblical warrant that I know of. I'm just asking you to rethink your position. If you're just unwilling, that's fine with me too.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Do you really think God "thinks" in succession? That He - anthropomorphically speaking - sits around and rationalizes out things before acting, contemplating premises and conclusions, avoiding fallacious thought, etc? God's thinking simply IS. There is no process to it. This is common Reformed and Christian Dogmatic theology.

Here you are confusing time with logic. A logical order does not imply a chronological order. True that there is not process with regards to time in God's thought, but there is a logical order to it. His Covenantal nature implies as much. But just because God thinks logically does not mean that he has to go about a "œprocess" like we do. It simply means that the he thinks with a logical effect as his "œpurpose." God has purpose for his creation. He never acts without an intended result. This too implies logical deduction.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the English Language
PUR'POSE,v.t. To intend; to design; to resolve; to determine on some end or object to be accomplished.

I have purposed it,I will also do it. Isa 46. Eph 3.

Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem. Acts 19.

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
If you still find me to be unScriptural (by implication of your statement above, which is most uncharitable), then so be it.

I believe you are jumping the gun in calling my statement "uncharitable." I am simply asking you to back up your beliefs using scripture! That's not too much to ask is it? Relying on Berkhof isn't enough, unless you can show Berkhof is what scripture teaches as well.

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Job 12:13 With God are wisdom and might; he has counsel and understanding.

Isa 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He does not faint or grow weary;
his understanding is unsearchable.

Understanding also implies logical thought.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the English Language
Understanding
UNDERSTAND'ING, ppr.

1. Comprehending; apprehending the ideas or sense of another, or of a writing; learning or being informed.

2. a. Knowing; skillful. He is an understanding man.

Other passages of God reasoning:

Exo 9:16 "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

Job 42:2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inher

 

[Scott]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"

Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3

No one has an answer for a simple question?

If I understand your question correctly, then yes.

Thank you...we just studied this question in afternoon class at church a coupld of weeks ago...it seemed to apply, but wanted to make certain I was making the right connection.

Technically, I think the quote reads to the effect of "yes, no one has an answer for a simple question."

 

[Scott]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by Scott

Time is conventional. Speaking in "time language" does not prove time, nor imply that one is presupposing time to exist. It is simply how we relate to our existence and one another within such existence.

It is more than language. I can't conceive a time not being. I think Bahnsen made a point like this in his series on Revelation.

BTW, I am not saying affirming one position or another. I just don't know how to think about what it mean for time to have a starting point.

Can you show me where Time exists? What is it? Can you buy it at the store? That is what I'm getting at.

I don't follow. I am not saying time is physical.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by Paul manata
Likewise, saying God has a purpose does not need to mean that God thinks syllogistically. It could be an eternal purpose and not a purpose that was inferrred from prior premises.

What does purpose mean if not thinking syllogistically?

 

[Arch2k]

Can God be illogical?
If not, must God then conform to something outside of himself?
What "something" would that be?
Is logic part of the image of God in man?
If so, then can "logic" be considered an anthropomorphism?

These are questions that need consideration.

 

[Arch2k]

E. The Wisdom of God.

Wisdom and knowledge are intimately related. The former is manifested in the selection of proper ends, and of proper means for the accomplishment of those ends. As there is abundant evidence of design in the works of nature, so all the works of God declare his wisdom. They show, from the most minute to the greatest, the most wonderful adaptation of means to accomplish the high end of the good of his creatures and the manifestation of his own glory. So also, in the whole course of history, we see evidence of the controlling power of God making all things work together for the best interests of his people, and the promotion of his kingdom upon earth. It is, however, in the work of redemption that this divine attribute is specially revealed. It is by the Church, that God has determined to manifest, through all ages, to principalities and powers, his manifold wisdom.

Of course those who deny final causes deny that there is any such attribute as wisdom in God. It is also said that the use of means to attain an end is a manifestation of weakness. It is further urged that it is derogatory to God, as it supposes that He needs or desires what He does not possess. Even Schleiermacher says: "Bei Gott is Allwissenheit und Weisheit so ganzlich einerlei, dass die Unterscheidung keinen Werth hat, die Weisheit ware nichts als auch wider absolute Lebendigkeit der Allmacht, also Alwissenheit." Wisdom is omniscience, omniscience is omnipotence, omnipotence is simply causality of all that is. Thus God sinks into the mere cause or ground of all things. It is not thus the Scriptures speak. We are called on to worship, "The only wise God." "O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast Thou made them all," is the devout exclamation of the Psalmist. (Ps. civ. 24.) And in contemplation of the work of redemption the Apostle exclaims, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" (Rom. xi. 33.)

Hodge, Charles. Systematic Theology, (Hendrickson, 2003), p. 401.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion.

If God thinks in a logical fashion, then did God really create it? I am in agreement with the latter portion of the statement, but not the former.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I never said God didn't "reason" or that He was "illogical." He just does so in a different way than we do, with succession and so forth. His "reasoning" is immediate and eternal. He doesn't contemplate, etc.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Paul manata
Likewise, saying God has a purpose does not need to mean that God thinks syllogistically. It could be an eternal purpose and not a purpose that was inferrred from prior premises.

Exactly my point. Thank you. God purposes, and He reasons and is reason-able, but He does not think in either Logical OR Temporal succession, nor does He think in premise-conclusion fashion, nor does He "wait around" for a situation to present itself before He "thinks about it." All that God knows is eternal, and His reasonable-ness is eternal. The Logic that came forth in the creation and which man has "discovered" over time, including people like Aristotle, etc., is the rationality and logic of God brought into "temporality" or our perception of such. God does not think Logically in the same way we think Logically. Both God and man can be (in God's case always IS) logical, but not in the same way or by the same means or process.

God's reasonable-ness is eternal, infinite, immediate, while man's is successive, finite, and limited by our lack of omnipotence.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion.

If God thinks in a logical fashion, then did God really create it? I am in agreement with the latter portion of the statement, but not the former.

Of course He created the Logic we use, because He doesn't think Logically in the same manner as men. It was not a necessity for the Trinity in eternity prior to the creation of all things to have syllogisms or premises and conclusions. All thought in and within the Godhead is eternal and immediate.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
I never said God didn't "reason" or that He was "illogical." He just does so in a different way than we do, with succession and so forth. His "reasoning" is immediate and eternal. He doesn't contemplate, etc.

I think I would agree with everything you've said here. I agree that God does not go through a process of learning conclusions from their premises. That being said, I think his thought is perfectly logical. If this is what you say, then I think we agree.

 

[Don]

It seems to me that two different things are being discussed: laws of logic as laws and applying the laws of logic to our thinking.

I would say that God does not need to do the latter in the manner that Gabe was speaking (premises, conclusions, etc) since he knows everything immediately. But would you guys say that God created the law of noncontradiction itself?

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Hey Don, I don't know if God "created" the law of non-contradiction itself. I think it just "is". Logic and the laws of logic just "exist" in the same way math exists. It may not have been created as much as it was discovered. It's just a byproduct of an orderly universe, I think.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by Don
It seems to me that two different things are being discussed: laws of logic as laws and applying the laws of logic to our thinking.

I would say that God does not need to do the latter in the manner that Gabe was speaking (premises, conclusions, etc) since he knows everything immediately. But would you guys say that God created the law of noncontradiction itself?

Don,

I tend to agree with your assessment. Thanks.

 

[Magma2]

Of course He created the Logic we use, because He doesn't think Logically in the same manner as men. It was not a necessity for the Trinity in eternity prior to the creation of all things to have syllogisms or premises and conclusions. All thought in and within the Godhead is eternal and immediate.

Are you saying avalid argument for men may be invalid for God and visa versa? 2+2=4 for men, but for God it might be 11?

 

[Magma2]

But would you guys say that God created the law of noncontradiction itself?

I wouldn't. LC is part and parcel of the architecture or structure of God's mind and as such LC is uncreated. A is eternally A and not non A. God is the Lord God of Truth so how could it be otherwise?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

As far as the "laws" of Logic, I believe God "created" those as part of the temporal, corporeal creation, as immaterial, transcendental universals which man subsequently "discovered" through the reason which God projected into the minds of men in that creation.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
I never said God didn't "reason" or that He was "illogical." He just does so in a different way than we do, with succession and so forth. His "reasoning" is immediate and eternal. He doesn't contemplate, etc.

I think I would agree with everything you've said here. I agree that God does not go through a process of learning conclusions from their premises. That being said, I think his thought is perfectly logical. If this is what you say, then I think we agree.

Sorry I was unclear.

 

[Magma2]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
As far as the "laws" of Logic, I believe God "created" those as part of the temporal, corporeal creation, as immaterial, transcendental universals which man subsequently "discovered" through the reason which God projected into the minds of men in that creation.

So then is it your view that the laws of logic (not sure why you put law in quotes) apply to man and not to God? Am I understanding you correctly? If I am, then why call the laws of logic "transcendental universals"?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Magma2

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
As far as the "laws" of Logic, I believe God "created" those as part of the temporal, corporeal creation, as immaterial, transcendental universals which man subsequently "discovered" through the reason which God projected into the minds of men in that creation.

So then is it your view that the laws of logic (not sure why you put law in quotes) apply to man and not to God? Am I understanding you correctly? If I am, then why call the laws of logic "transcendental universals"?

The "laws" of Logic apply to man, because we think according to those laws, or at least should. The reason they don't "apply" to God is because God's rationality is different than ours, as finite men. We think with succession, and in a finite manner, while God's thoughts are immediate, eternal. God does not need to "rationalize" something, using the "laws of logic" because God IS reason. The "laws" of Logic are what is communicated to us from God in Creation, so that we, as His creatures, can attempt to think rationally as God thinks, but in a different manner (that is, finite and with succession). Rationality is a communicable attribute, but, as with the others, it is communicated to us in a way that is different than how God employs such.

I call the laws of logic transcendental universals because ... they are universal and transcendent. I'm not sure what you mean by this. They are immaterial and are given to us by God. However, we are not on the same "level" as God, roughly speaking. So, no matter what is communicated to us by God, it is not going to be the "same thing" to us as it is to God, on a finite level. Applied to this discussion: God is rational. Man is rational. God is not rational in the same MANNER that man is, because God is eternal and man is finite.

 

[Magma2]

Are you saying avalid argument for men may be invalid for God and visa versa? 2+2=4 for men, but for God it might be 11?

no, that, Sean, is an invalid inference from what Gabe said.

That was certainly my hope Paul, but given Gabe's recent follow ups I'm not convinced that you are correct.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Magma2

Are you saying avalid argument for men may be invalid for God and visa versa? 2+2=4 for men, but for God it might be 11?

no, that, Sean, is an invalid inference from what Gabe said.

That was certainly my hope Paul, but given Gabe's recent follow ups I'm not convinced that you are correct.

Why?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

P1: God uses logic.
P2: God created man in His image.
___
.: Man uses the logic of God.

I think this is what Sean's position would be, but I'm not sure.


I'm saying:

P1: God is eternal, and all He does and is is therefore to be understood as eternal and "immediate."
P2: God created man after His image, but man is finite.
P3: God is logical.
___
.: Man is logical, after the image of God, but in a finite manner.