Christmas Tree Poll
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Greg,
What I'm saying is that we read Gillespie in totality and those arguments which involve circumstances that may have changed not be used based on his circumstances, but upon ours. Is that clearer? I think Gillespie would have reason (and I've referenced them I think in EPC; but if not, see part three against the unlawfulness of the popish ceremonies) to want to get rid of all or most of the practices that entangle us or keep the church attached to superstition and will worship at the end of December. What I don't think he would do, as I think I've made clear, is focus on what is now ostensibly a decoration as some pagan idol as a reason to get rid of it.
What I'm saying is that we read Gillespie in totality and those arguments which involve circumstances that may have changed not be used based on his circumstances, but upon ours. Is that clearer? I think Gillespie would have reason (and I've referenced them I think in EPC; but if not, see part three against the unlawfulness of the popish ceremonies) to want to get rid of all or most of the practices that entangle us or keep the church attached to superstition and will worship at the end of December. What I don't think he would do, as I think I've made clear, is focus on what is now ostensibly a decoration as some pagan idol as a reason to get rid of it.
non dignus
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm not scared of a Bhudda. It would look neat in my garden.
But not in the house! That crosses the line.
(Of course I'll have to remove it from the garden when the Taliban walk in, but that probably won't happen until Chelsea's third or fourth term.)
But not in the house! That crosses the line.
(Of course I'll have to remove it from the garden when the Taliban walk in, but that probably won't happen until Chelsea's third or fourth term.)
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KenPierce
Puritan Board Freshman
Weird question.
Some have been referring to Christmas as the Christ-mass, and that is the etymology of the word, no doubt.
But, what I cannot seem to discover is all that the word "mass" means. I know, in common Catholic parlance, it refers to their aberration of the Lord's Supper.
But, does it always mean that? Or, can it mean, more generically, observance, etc?
The word itself doesn't help us, because it is simply derived from the dismissal from the mass (missa).
Any ex-Catholics out there want to enlighten me?
Some have been referring to Christmas as the Christ-mass, and that is the etymology of the word, no doubt.
But, what I cannot seem to discover is all that the word "mass" means. I know, in common Catholic parlance, it refers to their aberration of the Lord's Supper.
But, does it always mean that? Or, can it mean, more generically, observance, etc?
The word itself doesn't help us, because it is simply derived from the dismissal from the mass (missa).
Any ex-Catholics out there want to enlighten me?
non dignus
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm not scared of a Bhudda. It would look neat in my garden.
But not in the house! That crosses the line.
(Of course I'll have to remove it when the Taliban walk in, but that probably won't happen 'til Chelsea's third or fourth term.)
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
It originally had to do with the part of the service following the sermon after the catechumens are dismissed (Latin: missa) when the eucharist was celebrated. Later it took on the meaning of the entire service.
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Yes, we will have a tree. And many Christmas "trappings".
We remember the incarnation everyday of our lives but, and I don't mean to offend anyone, I love the winter season and all of the holidays that come durring that time. I find it to be a fun, loving and peacful time of the year. I hope that you all have a delightfull holiday season this year. Thanksgiving and Christmas included.
God bless.
We remember the incarnation everyday of our lives but, and I don't mean to offend anyone, I love the winter season and all of the holidays that come durring that time. I find it to be a fun, loving and peacful time of the year. I hope that you all have a delightfull holiday season this year. Thanksgiving and Christmas included.
God bless.
SpiritAndTruth
Puritan Board Freshman
This is really a fascinating subject. I have heard both sides, and considered this topic heavily over the past few years. I have heard extremely passionate plees on behalf of both sides, from people I repect (or once respected ). I dug into Scripture, having read many of the passages posted here. As a five-year Christian, I have vascillated in my Christian walk from:
1) As a "baby" Christian*, thinking it was harshly legalistic and overwrought, with the people who felt this way being WAAAAAAYY over-the-top, taking themselves too seriously, etc., to:
2) As a more "mature" Christian, feeling I would "err on the side of being faithful to Holy Scripture", and not yeilding to the clearly pagan-originated aspects of Christmas, making sure that I was "in" the world, but not "of" the world, and, that anybody that DOES put up a tree is simply too immature in their faith (or--worse--not saved AT ALL), to:
3) Where I am now, which is that, realizing all of the above, and understanding both, I pretty much am still "emerging" from #2, but now totally comfortable with having SOME of the trappings, but done more as a seasonal decoration. That means, I've kind of come "full circle"-- with the full understanding that, as C. Matt put it, taking Christ out of Christmas-- being at peace knowing that I am not worshipping some idol, and being at peace with that.
I still know that God does not "wink" at sin, like you can have fellowship with sin, as though you were petting some German Shepherd and could get away with it, nor do I believe that participation in any form of pagan worship is somehow "OK". However, having a few seasonal decorations up is not necessarily some carnal, flesh-feeding orgy. If it is sin to you, DON'T DO IT, but if you are at peace with where your heart is before God, in Coram Deo, then it's OK.
Having been on both sides of the equation, I am reluctant to hold anyone in judgment on the issue. I have also noticed a pattern that, before salvation, there is pagan Christmas celebration to various degrees, followed by salvation, where Christmas celebration-- with all the trappings-- is greatly accelerated, followed by growing in the Lord with an understanding of Reformed Theology (at which point Christmas celebration stuff plummets), followed finally by a further maturing within the faith, where there is limited "seasonal' celebration, but now with a clear understanding that all this "fluff is NOT about Christ, and Him crucified.
I have a feeling that I am not alone in this view-- or am I?!?!?!
Anyway, sorry for the long-winded answer, when one word would suffice;
So...Are we going to have a tree this year?
Yes.
* BTW, I will probably always consider myself a "Baby Christian"...
). I dug into Scripture, having read many of the passages posted here. As a five-year Christian, I have vascillated in my Christian walk from:1) As a "baby" Christian*, thinking it was harshly legalistic and overwrought, with the people who felt this way being WAAAAAAYY over-the-top, taking themselves too seriously, etc., to:
2) As a more "mature" Christian, feeling I would "err on the side of being faithful to Holy Scripture", and not yeilding to the clearly pagan-originated aspects of Christmas, making sure that I was "in" the world, but not "of" the world, and, that anybody that DOES put up a tree is simply too immature in their faith (or--worse--not saved AT ALL), to:
3) Where I am now, which is that, realizing all of the above, and understanding both, I pretty much am still "emerging" from #2, but now totally comfortable with having SOME of the trappings, but done more as a seasonal decoration. That means, I've kind of come "full circle"-- with the full understanding that, as C. Matt put it, taking Christ out of Christmas-- being at peace knowing that I am not worshipping some idol, and being at peace with that.
I still know that God does not "wink" at sin, like you can have fellowship with sin, as though you were petting some German Shepherd and could get away with it, nor do I believe that participation in any form of pagan worship is somehow "OK". However, having a few seasonal decorations up is not necessarily some carnal, flesh-feeding orgy. If it is sin to you, DON'T DO IT, but if you are at peace with where your heart is before God, in Coram Deo, then it's OK.
Having been on both sides of the equation, I am reluctant to hold anyone in judgment on the issue. I have also noticed a pattern that, before salvation, there is pagan Christmas celebration to various degrees, followed by salvation, where Christmas celebration-- with all the trappings-- is greatly accelerated, followed by growing in the Lord with an understanding of Reformed Theology (at which point Christmas celebration stuff plummets), followed finally by a further maturing within the faith, where there is limited "seasonal' celebration, but now with a clear understanding that all this "fluff is NOT about Christ, and Him crucified.
I have a feeling that I am not alone in this view-- or am I?!?!?!
Anyway, sorry for the long-winded answer, when one word would suffice;
So...Are we going to have a tree this year?
Yes.
* BTW, I will probably always consider myself a "Baby Christian"...
Lauren Mary
Puritan Board Freshman
No
I will not have any of the Christmas holiday trappings in my home, and will not walk into my church if they bring any of it into our meeting place, and therein think to spiritualize or dignify this most worldly and pagan annual ritual.
How satisfying this must be to the RC church, that they so successfully and widely promoted their own enticing version of pagan rituals such that most of Christendome has now followed suit after them. Once upon a time, devout Christians used to close their doors and shutters in fear when the RC church rolled out their pagan Christmas holiday activities.
But alas/alack, my children with my very young grandchildren still put up Christmas decorations, get caught up in the American maddness of shopping for more things, while everyone's closets and garages are already overflowing with unnecessary and vain possessions. They invite me over Christmas morning. I do not shun them, and I do not spoil the holiday gatherings of friends and family by pontificating my views. But if someone tries to spiritualize or Christian-ize the holiday, I will gently share with them the best of the scholarship on the timing of Christ's birth, and also tell them about the pagan roots of Christmas. People do listen. And I pray. At Christmas time I pray especially hard for wisdom how to be in this world while not of it.
I do not ridicule or admonish anyone for their stance. I have dear devout Christian friends in both the "yes" and "no" camps. But for myself, having learned the truth about this holiday's roots and genesis, and having always hated the hyper-consumerism that goes with it, I no longer have peace before God to observe Christmas rituals in my own home or within my place of worship.
I will not have any of the Christmas holiday trappings in my home, and will not walk into my church if they bring any of it into our meeting place, and therein think to spiritualize or dignify this most worldly and pagan annual ritual.
How satisfying this must be to the RC church, that they so successfully and widely promoted their own enticing version of pagan rituals such that most of Christendome has now followed suit after them. Once upon a time, devout Christians used to close their doors and shutters in fear when the RC church rolled out their pagan Christmas holiday activities.
But alas/alack, my children with my very young grandchildren still put up Christmas decorations, get caught up in the American maddness of shopping for more things, while everyone's closets and garages are already overflowing with unnecessary and vain possessions. They invite me over Christmas morning. I do not shun them, and I do not spoil the holiday gatherings of friends and family by pontificating my views. But if someone tries to spiritualize or Christian-ize the holiday, I will gently share with them the best of the scholarship on the timing of Christ's birth, and also tell them about the pagan roots of Christmas. People do listen. And I pray. At Christmas time I pray especially hard for wisdom how to be in this world while not of it.
I do not ridicule or admonish anyone for their stance. I have dear devout Christian friends in both the "yes" and "no" camps. But for myself, having learned the truth about this holiday's roots and genesis, and having always hated the hyper-consumerism that goes with it, I no longer have peace before God to observe Christmas rituals in my own home or within my place of worship.
SpiritAndTruth
Puritan Board Freshman
Very well said, Lauren Mary....
I totally respect and agree with what you said about the CONTINUING "pagan-ization" of the "Holiday". In the end, I would have to confess-- I'm still really torn about it. It doesn't help that, prior to being saved, I raised my twins (see avatar) with the full regalia of the "Holidays" for the first four years of their lives. I did not know enough early in my walk to "shut off the spicket" of those trappings. Now, they're 8.
Can you see my dilemma now?
I also heard this the other day, and it rocked my world-- I knew it was pagan, but did not know all the origins of the cultures, timelines, etc., and how all this came together. Regardless of what you might think of John MacArthur, I think you'll all agree that this is pretty compelling, and a VERY good reminder of the origins of the season we are about to enter in to:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=11/6/2006
Anyway, I'll be following this thread closely, as I'm interested in hearing what others who are in my position are doing...
I totally respect and agree with what you said about the CONTINUING "pagan-ization" of the "Holiday". In the end, I would have to confess-- I'm still really torn about it. It doesn't help that, prior to being saved, I raised my twins (see avatar) with the full regalia of the "Holidays" for the first four years of their lives. I did not know enough early in my walk to "shut off the spicket" of those trappings. Now, they're 8.
Can you see my dilemma now?
I also heard this the other day, and it rocked my world-- I knew it was pagan, but did not know all the origins of the cultures, timelines, etc., and how all this came together. Regardless of what you might think of John MacArthur, I think you'll all agree that this is pretty compelling, and a VERY good reminder of the origins of the season we are about to enter in to:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=11/6/2006
Anyway, I'll be following this thread closely, as I'm interested in hearing what others who are in my position are doing...
historyb
Puritan Board Junior
I will admit that this is the only place I have ever heard Christmans talked about as if it was a virus to be avoided. I don't know any of those kind of people in the real world, and I suspect if I did I might make every effort to avoid them.
While I respect people's differing opinions, I think it a bit over the top to kept trying to assign paganism to this outside of where it is no longer that way. To me, In my humble opinion big deal it had pagan roots, big deal the pagans use to do this or that. It no longer is that way for the modern world.
As Paul said:
Rom 14:5-6
So no one should be made to feel bad because they want to continue fond memoires, all this In my humble opinion.
While I respect people's differing opinions, I think it a bit over the top to kept trying to assign paganism to this outside of where it is no longer that way. To me, In my humble opinion big deal it had pagan roots, big deal the pagans use to do this or that. It no longer is that way for the modern world.
As Paul said:
Rom 14:5-6
So no one should be made to feel bad because they want to continue fond memoires, all this In my humble opinion.
PresReformed
Puritan Board Freshman
Doug....Paul is speaking of Jewish Holy Days in Romans 14, not Pagan Festivals or Roman Catholic inventions. It's interesting to me that you've never heard Christ Mass talked about like its a virus to be avoided before. After all, this forum is called puritanboard, and I'm not aware of a single Puritan that didn't avoid it like the plague.
I won't be promoting superstition, paganism, teaching heathen myths, worshipping the sun or returning to my RC roots by celebrating a mass. I'm just going to enjoy my children around a sweet smelling spruce decorated with memories and building more memories. May the Lord be exalted in all our fellowshipping.
"To the pure, all things are pure."
I like the smell. It is better than the one hanging on the mirror.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Mr. McMahon, I wholly agree that the corporate worship of God is something entirely distinct from Christmas. I don't think it's sinful if a minister preaches a sermon on Christ's incarnation that day, any more than it would be on the fourth of July; but restructuring corporate worship around Christmas is not something I can get very excited about. However I would clarify that I worship God in everything I do (or I ought to) as all that I do ought to be done to His glory.
What I was speaking of with regard to a Christmas tree pointing us to Christ, as everything points us to Christ properly understood (it all coheres in Him) was not centered around decorating it to 'represent' Him. We never did that: I never thought the tree was supposed to represent Jesus. But it points me to Him, like my dinner points me to Him, like the nature of language points me to Him, like the rain points me to Him, etc. On the whole I think there isn't a whole lot of disagreement if what you are talking about is celebrating Christmas in church, or dressing up a tree specifically as an 'image' of God. (blech) Only I can't say 'Take Christ out of Christmas' any more than I can take Christ out of today. And though I celebrate His incarnation all year round, some things remind me of it more than others-- a picture of a little Mongolian baby reminded me that Christ was a baby the other day though God never 'instituted' that reminder -- and Christmas is one of those things.
(added: ....oops. I didn't mean to reopen the um, sensitive discussion. We were just out of town last week so I wasn't able to check Mr. McMahon's answer until today.... also, Rich-- I found the Boo-yah argument very convincing.)
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