"...so have a cup of cheer!"
Christmas Tree Poll
- Thread starter ReederKidsMom
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a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Mr. McMahon, I guess I am having trouble understanding how Christ can be taken out of Christmas- or any celebration. Isn't everything that we celebrate ultimately a celebration of Him? Don't all the symbols that we use to celebrate whatever kind of holiday ultimately point us to Him as the revelation of God to us in our humanity that can only comprehend Him in symbols? Isn't every holiday a 'holy day'? How can we have a 'secular' holiday, if Christ really is where He belongs-- absolutely everywhere? Is there anything to celebrate, if we do succeed in keeping Christ out of it? I don't think you mean to imply any of those things but I was wondering if you could explain a little more fully? Thanks.
PresReformed
Puritan Board Freshman
Matthew....whatever references Rome placed of Christ in the Christ Mass were lies. Removing Christ just leaves you with a purely pagan celebration. You can't seperate whatever modern inventions have been added to the day from what the day is. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Rome had never invented the day. Halloween and Reformation Day have nothing in common but the date.
Good point!
We will probably erect a small tree, invite the family over, and give some gifts to our children. I never thought I would find someone with similar views as mine, but Reverend McMahon has proven my fears to be unfounded. We do not celebrate Christmas as a Christian or religious holiday, but rather a means to enjoy various family traditions.
In regard to the various customs of Halloween, it matters not to me whether Christians desire to decorate their lawns with straw and pumpkins, cut faces into their pumpkins, or even particpate in the passing out of candies to traveling tricksters. While they ought not worship the pumpkin or become gluttons with candy I have a hard time establishing biblically that it is a sin to set a pumpkin on the porch or to give a piece of candy to a bevy of wandering children.
I consider both days (Christmas and Halloween) to be rather synonymous in that they are both the end result of centuries of mutli-cultural traditions that intermingle the customs of both pagans and saints. Most countries have formulated their own custsoms and traditions around these days.
For those who are opposed to observe any of the cultural customs of either Halloween or Christmas, would you be opposed to celebrating or participating in all cultural traditions and customs?
In regard to the various customs of Halloween, it matters not to me whether Christians desire to decorate their lawns with straw and pumpkins, cut faces into their pumpkins, or even particpate in the passing out of candies to traveling tricksters. While they ought not worship the pumpkin or become gluttons with candy I have a hard time establishing biblically that it is a sin to set a pumpkin on the porch or to give a piece of candy to a bevy of wandering children.
I consider both days (Christmas and Halloween) to be rather synonymous in that they are both the end result of centuries of mutli-cultural traditions that intermingle the customs of both pagans and saints. Most countries have formulated their own custsoms and traditions around these days.
For those who are opposed to observe any of the cultural customs of either Halloween or Christmas, would you be opposed to celebrating or participating in all cultural traditions and customs?
This brings up an interesting point;
HOw far can missionaries to foreign countries "redeem" local festivals?
For instance, can they fast during Ramadan and turn it into a month long (Christian) prayer for neighbors. Can they do harvest festivals and prasie God for them instead fo sacrifcinng cows, etc?
HOw far can missionaries to foreign countries "redeem" local festivals?
For instance, can they fast during Ramadan and turn it into a month long (Christian) prayer for neighbors. Can they do harvest festivals and prasie God for them instead fo sacrifcinng cows, etc?
Somebody sneezed today and I said "Bless you!"
I then recalled this thread and realized that I had completely bought into the Medieval idea that a person's soul could leave their body while sneezing and die and my "Bless you" was a superstitious and pagan form of spiritual protection.
I just felt so...so...dirty.
I felt like saying some Hail Marys and Glory Be's to make myself feel better but then I remembered something...
I'm not that uptight about such things.
I then recalled this thread and realized that I had completely bought into the Medieval idea that a person's soul could leave their body while sneezing and die and my "Bless you" was a superstitious and pagan form of spiritual protection.
I just felt so...so...dirty.
I felt like saying some Hail Marys and Glory Be's to make myself feel better but then I remembered something...
I'm not that uptight about such things.
Actually, some people don't take their lights down to July where I live. We don't call them pagans around here. We just call em Rednecks!
I R NOT a Redneck !!!
Some kids were playing Ring around the Rosies outside my house this afternoon.
I recalled this thread and yelled at them: "What are you kids doing singing about the Black Death! Don't you know that the Bubonic Plague killed nearly half the World's population and you trivialize it with song?!"
They looked frightened and confused...
but deep down I think they understood.
I recalled this thread and yelled at them: "What are you kids doing singing about the Black Death! Don't you know that the Bubonic Plague killed nearly half the World's population and you trivialize it with song?!"
They looked frightened and confused...
but deep down I think they understood.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
As a groutchy old man I don't find it too difficult to not celebrate anything. The older I get, the easier it is. As a wise secular man once said, "If everyone will just leave me alone, I will be just fine".
~My wife is much younger, hence, we will be treeing.
~My wife is much younger, hence, we will be treeing.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
Living in GA and being an Alabama Football fan, we think of ALL Tennessians as REDNECKS. Actually, Not Just Rednecks, but Redneck Pagans.
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
Isn't Red Great ? What a character on "That 70s Show." !
As a groutchy old man I don't find it too difficult to not celebrate anything. The older I get, the easier it is. As a wise secular man once said, "If everyone will just leave me alone, I will be just fine".
~My wife is much younger, hence, we will be treeing.
This is quite illustrative of what I quoted above* from Gillespie (no favorer of pretended holy days he).
When something has lost the original connotation at the very least we cannot insist simply by dregging up its original meaning that it is idolotrous or scandalous or something offensive that must be abandoned. Else we get Quakers and other groups who would not use the names of the days of the week. Now, I'm no favorer of a tree, but if we reform our worship, these other matters will take care of themselves in my opinion.
edit:*Oops; I mean on the other Holday Thread; I'm not keeping up obviously.
When something has lost the original connotation at the very least we cannot insist simply by dregging up its original meaning that it is idolotrous or scandalous or something offensive that must be abandoned. Else we get Quakers and other groups who would not use the names of the days of the week. Now, I'm no favorer of a tree, but if we reform our worship, these other matters will take care of themselves in my opinion.edit:*Oops; I mean on the other Holday Thread; I'm not keeping up obviously.
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
The question remains -- as drawn from the 1 Corinthians text, if Paul can eat meat that has been offered to Idols, knowing that those idols [had] no real existence, can we not draw from that same text to say that even pagan rituals can be transformed to the glory of God?! Given this text, Food will not serve to commend us to God, neither will abstaining from Food bring us His favor. Paul tells us we are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. Again, can we not infere that our consciences can be clear before God, given this passage? I believe we can transform--to a certain extent, the devil's days ( Like Halloween ), and make them positive. I think we can take a day such as December 25th, a day many here call Christ Mass, and enjoy it to the Glory of God. To God be the glory for songs which praise Him, to God be the Glory for Christmas stories that speak of his mercy and grace and good will toward men. Just like Jospeh's story in the O.T., where his brothers sought to harm him, God turned those things around and used them for the Good of His people. Is God not working in similar fashion by taking these days that are either neutral or of pagan origins and getting glory through his people when they celebrate them to honor Him?
1 Corinthians 8:4 an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
All 365 days in the calendar are Gods. Scripture teaches that He can turn our evil lives and intentions completely around, bring us from death to life. If He can do that to dead, sinful men, can he not transform simple days to His glory as well? I think He can and does.
1 Corinthians 8:4 an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
All 365 days in the calendar are Gods. Scripture teaches that He can turn our evil lives and intentions completely around, bring us from death to life. If He can do that to dead, sinful men, can he not transform simple days to His glory as well? I think He can and does.
LadyFlynt
Inactive User
Paul was not eating them as part of a ceremony to the idols...he was eating what was brought to the homes AFTER the ceremony when there was no purpose left for the meat and no hidden meanings in eating it. It was thereafter simply for human consumption. That is the difference between leaving candy/handing candy out and simply buying candy from the halloween aisle in the store.
Well, I just didn't find it convincing since it was anecdotal. That has not been my experience certainly. My mother has a tree to decorate; everyone I know does so. Maybe there are some folks out there that use the days of the week in reference to their pagan gods. Maybe some still say "bless you" to use Rich's example in a superstitious manner. That has nothing to do with most's practice though.
LadyFlynt
Inactive User
No, you have apparently missed that we are discussing holidays...not nursery songs and superstitions (the first of which my children sing knowing what the song was about...boy, they like to discuss that one...great way to remember the historical event and their ppls' way of thinking at the time...the second of which I don't participate in pagans superstitions., ie knocking on wood or tossing salt over my shoulder).
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
This is very easily thought about in connection with Memorial Day.
How do Christians who are veterans, for example, celebrate a day set apart for a specific memorial? Or for Valentine's Day? Or for April Fool's Day? Or New Years?
Can a Christian celebrate Groundhog Day and still honor Christ and glorify Him in his actions? Certainly.
Can he do it with Memorial Day? Certainly.
Can he do it with Rudolph and Frosty? Certainly.
He cannot, though, set aside a specific day (other than the Lord's Day) to worship Christ. Worship enters a whole other realm when one enters that playing field. Taking the "Tree" and then decorating it to represent "Christ" is making it something specifically" religious with intent. But that is where the line should be drawn. God alone determines the manner in which sinners approach Him. I find nothing in Scripture that commands me to create a specific day to worship and remember Christ as Incarnated over any other day. Rather, that should be part of my religious worship always.
The Roman Church violated the Regulative Principle in creating Christ-mass.
I don't violate the regulative principle in celebrating New Years, or Thanksgiving, or Xmas. Christ is in those days as much as He is in TODAY (November 7, 2006). Novermber 7, 2006 is as much a "religious" day as December 25th. My glorification of Him is not tied to a specific "holy-day". Rather, those days are simply part of my existence in glorifying Him all through the year.
Jeff,
Sure, Get some fishing lures, hooks, kelp, and other sea creatures attach them to your clothes and drape the kelp over your body, don't take a bath for a few days before hand and go as Jonah after he's been in the belly of a fish for three days and go out shouting "REPENT, REPENT"
I'm sure that would probably scare people more than the ghost, goblins and witches.
So if we take the goblins and witches out of Halloween, is it ok to trick or treat?
Sure, Get some fishing lures, hooks, kelp, and other sea creatures attach them to your clothes and drape the kelp over your body, don't take a bath for a few days before hand and go as Jonah after he's been in the belly of a fish for three days and go out shouting "REPENT, REPENT"
I'm sure that would probably scare people more than the ghost, goblins and witches.
heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
And I thought the purpose of this thread was just to see who was putting up a Christmas Tree.
LadyFlynt
Inactive User
Apparently.
No, I know what the thread is about. I've seen a great deal of confusion on that subject on this board; I personally think I know what I'm talking about.
No, I know what the thread is about. I've seen a great deal of confusion on that subject on this board; I personally think I know what I'm talking about.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
This argument is an old Christmas tradition here on the Puritan Board and I would hate to see it go away. I for one look forward, each year, to drinking eggnog and being accused of cavorting with devils and pushing paganism.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
This argument is an old Christmas tradition here on the Puritan Board and I would hate to see it go away. I for one look forward, each year, to drinking eggnog and being accused of cavorting with devils and pushing paganism.
I can certainly empathize with those who want to eradicate the celebrations, festivities, and trappings (along with the "holiday"). However, I think I agree with Matt on this one.
If I do use some of the trappings of the season in my future hypothetical family, I would limit it to a Yule-tree (maybe "winter tree"), lights on the house, and presents. No Santa Claus, no nativity scenes, no sappy services or anything of the like. And I'd certainly instruct my children on both the Northern European heathen roots, as well as the later Roman additions.
Not to make an exegetical stretch, but is there any insight on this issue that could be gained from Paul's instructions regarding meat sacrificed to idols?
Some are concerned with appearing to support heathenism or Roman Catholicism; I'm pretty sure that actually being at a dinner where meat was sacrificed and dedicated to pagan gods, and eating that meat, would certainly appear as "supporting" it more.
But leaving the weaker brother issue aside, how is having a tree in your house, and explicitly disallowing and condemning its pagan usage, different than the Corinthian problem?
Also, my knowledge of the history of the Protestant interpretation of Xmas is pretty limited (beyond the vast majority condemning it as will worship). However, I think some on this board have said that the Puritans intentionally worked or labored on that day as a sign of protest. However, some of the ones that say they "abstain" from celebrating it also have family over, apple cider, egg nog, and festivities.
I think its a small step between having family over, egg nog, cookies, big meals, etc., and a tree. Its certainly far from the spirit of "protest", isn't it? If you truly wanted to avoid it, I would think you wouldn't run the risk of people misinterpreting you by having a festive gathering at your house (the timing of which was suspiciously similar to Xmas parties).
That being said, I'm not trying to paint those who disagree as extremist or anything, or "backwoods", or reactionary, as often happens. Because I understand their concerns. If the Reformed churches ever got serious about unifying, or attempting to unify, its something I'd easily give up for those that had a problem with it.
For me its just a part of cultural heritage and my Germanic roots.
That being said, though most baby boomers won't make the pagan connection, an increasing number of young people have, and are. I was involved in Asatru (kind of like the Northern European, Germanic, "Viking" version of Wicca) for a few years in my late teens, and it used to amuse me seeing all of the "Christians" incorporate pagan elements into their holidays and celebrate the resurrection of Jesus under the name of a Germanic goddess of the dawn-spring.
However, when I challenged people on this, I also never got a good Reformed, intelligent response. Only evangelical fluff about love and presents. I'm pretty sure anyone on this board could have given me a good smack down, as they could give to others who used that weak argument against the truth of Christianity. But that is one other issue (since neopaganism is blossoming in the States) that might lead me to abandon it altogether.
If I do use some of the trappings of the season in my future hypothetical family, I would limit it to a Yule-tree (maybe "winter tree"), lights on the house, and presents. No Santa Claus, no nativity scenes, no sappy services or anything of the like. And I'd certainly instruct my children on both the Northern European heathen roots, as well as the later Roman additions.
Not to make an exegetical stretch, but is there any insight on this issue that could be gained from Paul's instructions regarding meat sacrificed to idols?
Some are concerned with appearing to support heathenism or Roman Catholicism; I'm pretty sure that actually being at a dinner where meat was sacrificed and dedicated to pagan gods, and eating that meat, would certainly appear as "supporting" it more.
But leaving the weaker brother issue aside, how is having a tree in your house, and explicitly disallowing and condemning its pagan usage, different than the Corinthian problem?
Also, my knowledge of the history of the Protestant interpretation of Xmas is pretty limited (beyond the vast majority condemning it as will worship). However, I think some on this board have said that the Puritans intentionally worked or labored on that day as a sign of protest. However, some of the ones that say they "abstain" from celebrating it also have family over, apple cider, egg nog, and festivities.
I think its a small step between having family over, egg nog, cookies, big meals, etc., and a tree. Its certainly far from the spirit of "protest", isn't it? If you truly wanted to avoid it, I would think you wouldn't run the risk of people misinterpreting you by having a festive gathering at your house (the timing of which was suspiciously similar to Xmas parties).
That being said, I'm not trying to paint those who disagree as extremist or anything, or "backwoods", or reactionary, as often happens. Because I understand their concerns. If the Reformed churches ever got serious about unifying, or attempting to unify, its something I'd easily give up for those that had a problem with it.
For me its just a part of cultural heritage and my Germanic roots.
That being said, though most baby boomers won't make the pagan connection, an increasing number of young people have, and are. I was involved in Asatru (kind of like the Northern European, Germanic, "Viking" version of Wicca) for a few years in my late teens, and it used to amuse me seeing all of the "Christians" incorporate pagan elements into their holidays and celebrate the resurrection of Jesus under the name of a Germanic goddess of the dawn-spring.
However, when I challenged people on this, I also never got a good Reformed, intelligent response. Only evangelical fluff about love and presents. I'm pretty sure anyone on this board could have given me a good smack down, as they could give to others who used that weak argument against the truth of Christianity. But that is one other issue (since neopaganism is blossoming in the States) that might lead me to abandon it altogether.
For some history, at least of how Presbyterians fell away from their rejection of the pretended holy days, see The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
This argument is an old Christmas tradition here on the Puritan Board and I would hate to see it go away. I for one look forward, each year, to drinking eggnog and being accused of cavorting with devils and pushing paganism.
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