Conversion as a Process

[heartoflesh]

I just began reading Bunyan's "Grace Abounding To The Chief of Sinners", and in the introduction it is mentioned that Bunyan, along with almost all the Puritan's of his time saw conversion as a process. While I'm not sure I completely understand this, I can definately see how different this way of thinking is from our day. Nowdays, we heavily emphasize the moment you make that first "decision" as the moment conversion takes place.

So my questions are:

1) Did the Puritans believe that one should look back to a time when he/she was converted?

2) How does this "process conversion" theology fit with passages such as Ephesians 1:13-14:

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

It seems like Paul would have us look to a definate time when we "believed", back to a time when we "were" sealed, etc.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is meant by "conversion as a process". Can anyone elaborate?

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Rick Larson]

 

[LadyFlynt]

And honestly...trying to pinpoint a "point of salvation" is what causes many to doubt their conversion.

It is a process...truely...

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by joshua
Also, I don't think Paul was too concerned with a specific moment (other than his own unique conversion). The text says "after hearing", but it doesn't say how soon or late AFTER that hearing that they believed.

Agreed. But what about the point when "we believed"? Should we look back to a point when that happened, and tell people "that's when I got saved"?

 

[gwine]

Rick, I'm on my mobile so I can't type very much.

You're scaring me. Watch the road.

 

[gwine]

For myself I can't speak of a particular 'day.' But there have been turning points where the truth has been revealed more clearly and I can see myself growing (ever so slowly) in grace.

I'm with LadyFlynt - trying to pinpoint a day and hour starts the doubt-wheel churning.

I like what my good friend Bob Vigneault (maxdetail) told me. It's not about when you knew you were saved, it's about when you knew you were lost. I don't remember the day but I remember the details quite vividly.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by gwine]

 

[Mrs.SolaFide]

Personally, I do not have such a "moment", even though I have only been a Christian for three years. My best friend, however, cannot remember a time in her life when she was NOT a Christian. I don't think that it is necessary to have that "decision date" - but don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with it!

As far as the Ephesians passage goes (and I have not read Bunyan on the subject, so I'm not entirely sure what he's saying), I think it does support a "process". We hear the gospel, are given faith to believe the gospel, repent and believe. Sanctification, then, is a lifelong process. Sure, the initial assent to the Truth may happen in a split second, but there is a particular order or process.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by MissSolaFide]

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by MissSolaFide]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by MissSolaFide
Personally, I do not have such a "moment", even though I have only been a Christian for three years. My best friend, however, cannot remember a time in her life when she was NOT a Christian. I don't think that it is necessary to have that "decision date" - but don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with it!

As far as the Ephesians passage goes (and I have not read Bunyan on the subject, so I'm not entirely sure what he's saying), I think it does support a "process". We hear the gospel, are given faith to believe the gospel, repent and believe. Sanctification, then, is a lifelong process. Sure, the initial assent to the Truth may happen in a split second, but there is a particular order or process.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by MissSolaFide]

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by MissSolaFide]

Sure, the initial assent to the Truth may happen in a split second, but there is a particular order or process.

There is; it is known as the Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation).
Use the search function on the board for more details.

By the way, Welcome! (First post, I see!)

 

[satz]

I don't know if this is helpful, but

As i understand it, conversion is a process. The first time we believed the gospel, or repenting from a specific sin are all part of the process of conversion. This process is lifelong and will not end until we die.

It is regeneration that is a specific event and can be traced back to a particular day or time. However, from our own point of view, we may never be able to say from sure exactly when we were regenerated.

In anycase, like others have said, i don't think the bible emphasizes looking back to a particular time when you were saved. It is the state of your life now that is important.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Agreed, Erin....and btw, WELCOME to the PB!!!

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by joshua
The thing is, we live in a fastfood microwave world and the Church has sought to conform. Foreknown, Predestined, Called, Justified, Being Sanctified, Will Be Glorified.

Yes, and I think the whole idea of the altar call has also blurred things. Blame Finney.

It's also important, however, that we emphasize the distinction in what we believe about salvation from, say, a Romish view-- where there is never any assurance of anything.

 

[AdamM]

“Salvation” has some aspects that are ongoing, but conversion is instantaneous. You are either dead or alive, there is no middle ground (think of it as digital, either a or b, not both.) I do think on this point Bunyan is unclear, but I believe some of the confusion can be traced back to the emphasis the Puritans put on "preparationism" that we don’t focus on at all today. The Puritans believed that pre-conversion people the Spirit led people through a period of increasing awareness of their sin, greater sorrow, more conviction & etc, all leading to the point of conversion. So much of what you read that sounds like conversion being a process is really just their doctrine of preparationism.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by AdamM
“Salvation” has some aspects that are ongoing, but conversion is instantaneous. You are either dead or alive, there is no middle ground (think of it as digital, either a or b, not both.) I do think on this point Bunyan is unclear, but I believe some of the confusion can be traced back to the emphasis the Puritans put on "preparationism" that we don’t focus on at all today. The Puritans believed that pre-conversion people the Spirit led people through a period of increasing awareness of their sin, greater sorrow, more conviction & etc, all leading to the point of conversion. So much of what you read that sounds like conversion being a process is really just their doctrine of preparationism.

That is not a biblical account however:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification,
8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

These do not necessarily have to occur instantaneously. I suggest an excellent book on the matter:

"A Treatise on Regeneration" by Peter Van Mastricht.

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification,
8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

So, would it be fair to say that regeneration is an instantaneous act, one which we may not know has occured-- until possibly some time later-- at which time we express faith/repentance, which we can identify with a particular time/place?

 

[Mrs.SolaFide]

EXACTLY!!!

And thanks for the welcome, everyone! I've enjoyed reading your posts & have finally worked up the courage to write some of my own. I look forward to learning from and discussing with you!:bigsmile:

 

[AdamM]

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification,
8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

These do not necessarily have to occur instantaneously. I suggest an excellent book on the matter:

"A Treatise on Regeneration" by Peter Van Mastricht.

Scott, the ordo is logical order of the application of the benefits of Christ to the believer. The ordo is not meant to imply a temporal gap sequence like you could measure with a stop watch. Otherwise a person could be justified without at the same time being sanctified or a person could be under the wrath of God (unjustified) while having a new nature (regeneration.) That Spirit renewed nature that once hated God, now now can do nothing but to instantly cling to Christ in faith and repentence (conversion) and is therefore justified, sanctified & etc..


A very good summary of the ordo is available on monergism.com (see below)

Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never seperate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by AdamM

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification,
8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

These do not necessarily have to occur instantaneously. I suggest an excellent book on the matter:

"A Treatise on Regeneration" by Peter Van Mastricht.

Scott, the ordo is logical order of the application of the benefits of Christ to the believer. The ordo is not meant to imply a temporal gap sequence like you could measure with a stop watch. Otherwise a person could be justified without at the same time being sanctified or a person could be under the wrath of God (unjustified) while having a new nature (regeneration.) That Spirit renewed nature that once hated God, now now can do nothing but to instantly cling to Christ in faith and repentence (conversion) and is therefore justified, sanctified & etc..


A very good summary of the ordo is available on monergism.com (see below)

Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never seperate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.

Who wrote this? I disagree. They may be simultaneous; they may not be. John 3 says that men cannot see the kingdom until they are regenerate. Regeneracy can happen in infancy, i.e. John the baptist, Jeremiah, Samson. These men were not converted till later hearing the word. How much time in between; years!

The golden chain shows identifiable segments. Segments denote time.



[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[AdamM]

Who wrote this? I disagree. They may be simultaneous; they may not be. John 3 says that men cannot see the kingdom until they are regenerate. Regeneracy can happen in infancy, i.e. John the baptist, Jeremiah, Samson. These men were not converted till later hearing the word. How much time in between; years!

Hi Scott, I assume the owner of monergism.com wrote the statement, but it is nothing more then a condensed explanation of the Reformed ordo that you would get from most systematics like Reymond, Murray or Hodge. I would advise caution in taking extraordinary occurrences and mysteries in the Bible and attempting to make them normative. In the case of infants who are regenerated in the womb, the Bible says very little about it, other then it does occasionally happen. I think we have to affirm that if an infant is regenerated in the womb, that the infant is united with Christ and possesses all the benefits of that union. To say otherwise opens up all sorts of problems in our ordinary (as compared to extraordinary cases) approach to soteriology.

Think about the implications:

Can you have justification without at the same time being sanctified?

Can a person be in Christ, without being a new creation and the old nature passing away? Can the old nature pass away apart from being justified and sanctified?

Can a person who is in union with Christ at the same time be under the wrath of God?

How can the renewed (regenerated) nature resist for even a nanosecond turning to God in faith and repentance? By definition the renewed nature is one that has gone from hating God to loving God. Can you love God and yet not have faith?

Here are some helpful excerpts from John Murray and Robert Reymond in an article written by Dr. Van Lees located at:

http://www.covenantofgracechurch.org/page27.html

John Murray writes: "When we think of the application of redemption we must not think of it as one simple and indivisible act. It comprises a series of acts and processes. To mention some, we have calling, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification. These are all distinct, and not one of these can be defined in terms of the other. Each has its own distinct meaning, function, and purpose in the action and grace of God (Redemption: Accomplished and Applied by John Murray, p. 79, 80). These "series of acts and processes" follow an order in their application to the sinner. Historically, Reformed theologians have spoken of this as the "order of salvation" or ordo salutis. It is important to note that this order of salvation is a logical order and not a chronological one.

Robert Reymond gives this explanation and chart of the order of the application of salvation: "From all this, the following order of application has emerged. Concomitant aspects of the order are highlighted by arranging them in vertical columns under five headings indicating which aspects are entirely divine acts and which aspects entail human activity working both in response to and in conjunction with accompanying divinely initiated activity. It should be noted that the first three columns to do not reflect chronological occurrences, since the moment the sinner is regenerated, in that moment he repents and places his confidence in Christ’s saving work, and in that same moment God justifies, definitively sanctifies, and adopts and seals him. These columns reflect the logical (or causal) connection between the several aspects."

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by AdamM]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Adam,
Whether you want to agree or not, the events in scripture support the premise. The rationale that they are extraordinary do not hold water to me. There is more than one example. Jesus Himself says that men must be regenerated before they can see the kingdom of God. We also know that men cannot be saved unless they sit under the preaching of faithful men; hence John, Jeremiah and Samson had a segment in time where they were regenerate, yet not converted. The bible shows the occurences as segmental. Segments have time (you mention nanoseconds).....

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]