Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
Ties do indeed have a very important function! They work great when you come in from the rain, if you need something to wipe the rain drops off your glasses!
Face Paint - MakeUp
- Thread starter Coram Deo
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Ties do indeed have a very important function! They work great when you come in from the rain, if you need something to wipe the rain drops off your glasses!
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
I personally stopped wearing lots of make-up about 2 yrs ago. I was convicted about it personally because of my own attitudes about my looks, so I can't speak for all people. I think it is like many things and it depends upon the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
I don't think I need to impress anyone. I am already happily married, and I have no reason to dazzle other men or women for that matter, with my looks. That is vanity. I wear a little cream and powder make-up around my eyes because I look like a raccoon if I don't, but I don't wear eyeliner, mascara, or heavy lipstick anymore. It does seem like preening vanity to me to spend so much time in the bathroom on how you look.
I am so much more free now and I actually really like not worrying about it anymore. It is also a big time and money saver.
I don't think I need to impress anyone. I am already happily married, and I have no reason to dazzle other men or women for that matter, with my looks. That is vanity. I wear a little cream and powder make-up around my eyes because I look like a raccoon if I don't, but I don't wear eyeliner, mascara, or heavy lipstick anymore. It does seem like preening vanity to me to spend so much time in the bathroom on how you look.
I am so much more free now and I actually really like not worrying about it anymore. It is also a big time and money saver.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Thankfully, the Puritans and Church Fathers are not in the Canon. Notice in all the quotes you provided, they were not expounding Scripture but stating their opinion. Unless the Scripture calls it sin, or it can be deduced clearly from it, we cannot call it sin. Therefore, it's a Christian liberty issue. Narrative examples are not necessarily preceptive. And your blanket statement that wearing makeup is idolatry is simply incorrect. Many women wear it for different motives, some idolatrous for sure, some to deceive or seduce others. But not all. In issues like this, you need to be guided more by the general rules of the Word, and seek to glorify God.
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caoclan
Puritan Board Freshman
Thankfully, the Puritans and Church Fathers are not in the Canon. Notice in all the quotes you provided, they were not expounding Scripture but stating their opinion. Unless the Scripture calls it sin, or it can be deduced clearly from it, we cannot call it sin. Therefore, it's a Christian liberty issue. Narrative examples are not necessarily preceptive. And your blanket statement that wearing makeup is idolatry is simply incorrect. Many women wear it for different motives, some idolatrous for sure, some to devieve or seduce others. But not all. In issues like this, you need to be guided more by the general rules of the Word, and seek to glorify God.
Right, I agree. Correct motives are key. Please don't put Christians under bondage.
caoclan
Puritan Board Freshman
Daniel,
I disagree with you.... I have quoted Church Fathers, and Even Puritans on this matter.. They disagree with you. It is not some "doubtful thing"..
Bill,
I just want to say that I know this is not a democracy so I am going to bail out at this point.. I totally disagree with you... I believe the Puritans also disagree with you over it being a Christian Liberty issue but I am a mere peon on here so that is really all I have to say......
From what I can tell, the passages are condemning the over-use of such things, not a moderate usage. Some women need to use make-up as they would look unwell otherwise. Its not really much different to using soap to wash your face.
I really wish that people would realize there are "doubtful things" in the Christian life (Rom. 14:1) and stop making such a big deal out of small matters.
The time that is wasted in pedantic discussions over trifles could surely be much better employed in something more productive.
Brother,
I also think this is no place for a comment like this (the "peon" part).
Gryphonette
Moderator
I don't wear make-up, either, largely because I'm too lazy to spend the time necessary to properly remove it at night when I'm tired, plus I tend to rub my eyes, which doesn't work well with eye make-up. ;^)
One definite difference between the use of cosmetics during the early church era and now is that respectable women simply didn't use them back then, from what I understand. Until not very long ago, using cosmetics was intended to draw attention to oneself.
The odd thing about these days, however, is that if one is a woman working in an office or somewhere, ordinary use of cosmetics (In other words,, not getting funky or Tammy Faye Bakker-ish) allows one to blend in with everyone else.
Naturally if a woman is sporting two-inch-long false eyelashes, sparkly emerald eye shadow, and purple lipstick, all bets are off, and "LOOK AT ME!" is certainly the impetus for making such a display of herself.
But moderate, understated make-up will do no such thing, and in fact will help its wearer not stand out in a crowd. A female employee is more likely to be noticed because of not wearing cosmetics than she is for wearing a minimal amount.
It reminds me of those women - and I really, really apologize if I'm about to inadvertently tread on toes - who somehow are convinced they're displaying modesty by dressing in a manner more suited to a farmer's wife in the late 19th century. Occasionally I've seen someone dressed like that here in Fort Worth, and let me tell you, she couldn't be more conspicuous at the grocery store if she'd been walking on stilts.
Dressing so as to attract attention is not modest, even if it means every square inch of skin is covered in the dead heat of summer.
If we Christian women are to be noted primarily for our quiet, gentle demeanor instead of our dress or make-up, then the judicious use of cosmetics can actually aid in this, if a total lack of them would attract attention.
One definite difference between the use of cosmetics during the early church era and now is that respectable women simply didn't use them back then, from what I understand. Until not very long ago, using cosmetics was intended to draw attention to oneself.
The odd thing about these days, however, is that if one is a woman working in an office or somewhere, ordinary use of cosmetics (In other words,, not getting funky or Tammy Faye Bakker-ish) allows one to blend in with everyone else.
Naturally if a woman is sporting two-inch-long false eyelashes, sparkly emerald eye shadow, and purple lipstick, all bets are off, and "LOOK AT ME!" is certainly the impetus for making such a display of herself.
But moderate, understated make-up will do no such thing, and in fact will help its wearer not stand out in a crowd. A female employee is more likely to be noticed because of not wearing cosmetics than she is for wearing a minimal amount.
It reminds me of those women - and I really, really apologize if I'm about to inadvertently tread on toes - who somehow are convinced they're displaying modesty by dressing in a manner more suited to a farmer's wife in the late 19th century. Occasionally I've seen someone dressed like that here in Fort Worth, and let me tell you, she couldn't be more conspicuous at the grocery store if she'd been walking on stilts.
Dressing so as to attract attention is not modest, even if it means every square inch of skin is covered in the dead heat of summer.
If we Christian women are to be noted primarily for our quiet, gentle demeanor instead of our dress or make-up, then the judicious use of cosmetics can actually aid in this, if a total lack of them would attract attention.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I saw somewhere that ties originally were designed to keep food from getting on the rest of your clothes. If true, how ironic than that we often see men throwing their expensive ties over their shoulder when about to dig into some barbecue or some other messy meal!
So, let me get this straight. You wear just enough make-up not to have hmm..."beauty deficiencies" ("racoon eyes") but not enough to impress anyone?
This seems terribly inconsistent.
What about impressing your husband? It sounds like you are saying, "Okay, so I am married and have no need to impress anyone anymore...why not let myself go..."
I see nothing but personal preferences in most of these arguments for and against.
I am glad when my wife tries to look nice. There is no Biblical virtue in dumpyness.
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Ha, down with Amish-like women who crave for the attention of the world by being obtuse and overly different..."Look at how modest I am....looky, looky, looky..."
Although a good bonnet IS quite attractive!
Being separate from the world means motives, and actions rather than dress codes and outlandish costumes.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
I think motives are key, but as far as I am concerned, we don't want to blend in with the world.
For my daughters to 'blend in' with a crowd of their peers in the States, they will, in some places, have to dress like very young prostitutes. I'm not talking among deviants but 'in a crowd' at WalMart. While there need not be an adherance to "Amish-wear", let's not throw out these ideas of modesty altogether. If I am going to a public barbeque (let's say at a Rotary Club fundraiser at the local park) with my attractive wife, do I want her dressed like the others there (tight-ish jeans/capri pants and a cropped top), or in a way that says "I am not on display for your (that is, the men around her) viewing enjoyment"?
Don't you think that in many ways our views on what is "strange" and "stand out" have been skewed by society and secular culture creeping into our lives? I remember a sermon in which it was said that much of what some Christian girls now wear to the beach would have gotten them arrested just 100 years ago under secular laws of public decency. I would say that Biblical ideals were, at the time, more a part of the social moral code (though not THE standard). Now they most certainly are not. So did our standards change, or did the world's? Ours should have stayed much the same, while the world's would naturally have moved on with popular culture. I'm not saying that any particular time period has THE approved biblical fashion down pat, but let's not get carried away with attempts at such, having a great big "Christian Liberty" sticker slapped on the topic and thus end all discussion of what is appropriate or modest. That is an equal or greater danger, as the bounds of 'liberty' have a tendancy to creep ever further.
But the first paragraph does not necessarily equal the second. There are plenty who see this mode of dress as a scriptural calling and not "look how modest I can be!" Quite often the ever-important motive will lead to someone dressing like an Amish housewife. Yes, there are times when this degenerates into a holier-than-thou attitude, but more often than not it is instead the more 'culturally relevant' ones who come out with "so-and-so is such a legalist to be dressing like that!" (And please understand that that is not what I am saying anyone in this discussion is doing, but I've seen it more often than not over here where we live.)
For my daughters to 'blend in' with a crowd of their peers in the States, they will, in some places, have to dress like very young prostitutes. I'm not talking among deviants but 'in a crowd' at WalMart. While there need not be an adherance to "Amish-wear", let's not throw out these ideas of modesty altogether. If I am going to a public barbeque (let's say at a Rotary Club fundraiser at the local park) with my attractive wife, do I want her dressed like the others there (tight-ish jeans/capri pants and a cropped top), or in a way that says "I am not on display for your (that is, the men around her) viewing enjoyment"?
Don't you think that in many ways our views on what is "strange" and "stand out" have been skewed by society and secular culture creeping into our lives? I remember a sermon in which it was said that much of what some Christian girls now wear to the beach would have gotten them arrested just 100 years ago under secular laws of public decency. I would say that Biblical ideals were, at the time, more a part of the social moral code (though not THE standard). Now they most certainly are not. So did our standards change, or did the world's? Ours should have stayed much the same, while the world's would naturally have moved on with popular culture. I'm not saying that any particular time period has THE approved biblical fashion down pat, but let's not get carried away with attempts at such, having a great big "Christian Liberty" sticker slapped on the topic and thus end all discussion of what is appropriate or modest. That is an equal or greater danger, as the bounds of 'liberty' have a tendancy to creep ever further.
But the first paragraph does not necessarily equal the second. There are plenty who see this mode of dress as a scriptural calling and not "look how modest I can be!" Quite often the ever-important motive will lead to someone dressing like an Amish housewife. Yes, there are times when this degenerates into a holier-than-thou attitude, but more often than not it is instead the more 'culturally relevant' ones who come out with "so-and-so is such a legalist to be dressing like that!" (And please understand that that is not what I am saying anyone in this discussion is doing, but I've seen it more often than not over here where we live.)
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Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Pergy,
I don't look like a monster without make-up.
I just don't have eyeliner and all of that other stuff on. I do have by genetics dark circles around my eyes. I just try to lessen that a little so that I just look natural and not scary. Maybe you missed it but I also said that this was a stumbling block for me and that is the main reason for it. Some women like the attention and the second looks too much and then it becomes an issue in their heart.
Funny thing is, that since I have been doing this my husband is even more amorous towards me and I almost have to hide lately.
Go figure. So my husband is in no way displeased with me not wearing make-up. He is also more concerned with my heart and soul before God and not how I look on his arm.
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Traci:
I am sure you are not a monster and I am sorry if I sounded as if I thought you did. I have been running among a few circles too often that try to be stricter than need be and so maybe I am being reactionary (I do that sometimes).
I was lamely trying to get across that this is largely a personal issue and not a hard and fast rule driven issue. Lame might be the key word.People draw the line in very different places.
Ha ha...also maybe stop hiding! (I know all my wife's hiding places already!)
P.S. Remember, I am Pergy. I don't know that other fella anymore.
I am sure you are not a monster and I am sorry if I sounded as if I thought you did. I have been running among a few circles too often that try to be stricter than need be and so maybe I am being reactionary (I do that sometimes).
I was lamely trying to get across that this is largely a personal issue and not a hard and fast rule driven issue. Lame might be the key word.People draw the line in very different places.
Ha ha...also maybe stop hiding! (I know all my wife's hiding places already!)
P.S. Remember, I am Pergy. I don't know that other fella anymore.
No Longer A Libertine
Puritan Board Senior
Nonsense they were created so women can choke you when angry.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
That thought has crossed my mind as well; while we should be sensitive to believers who have scruples with this sort of thing, the sheer emphasis that is laid on such matters is surely unbalanced.Hey! Ties are expensive, not to mention dry cleaning bills when they get food spots - dh recently got something on his beloved gold tie which dry cleaning didn't remove - I tried "Shouting" out the spot and then had to iron the tie which ended up ruining it. Thankfully, I was able to find another gold one at Penney's.
BTW - how many ties do you guys have in your closets? My dh only wears one on Sunday and for other dress-up occasions, not every day, and still has an ENORMOUS number of the things collected over the years!!! It's comprable to a woman's drawer of cosmetics any day!
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
Thank you, sister!! I have heard my wife give almost exactly the same advice to young women many times.
If the point is to avoid drawing attention to yourself & your apearence, then why are you wearing an anacronistic costume, a 19th cent. hairstyle, and a unibrow? That is the one way to make sure that everyone does notice you.
Can you say "paradox" boys & girls?
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Michael, you've taken a stand against make-up and now you are proof-texting to bolster your stand. Pergamum is right, your hat is totally flamboyant and so is my hair except that it's 4 above zero here in Wisconsin and I'll keep the hair a bit longer.
Gryphonette
Moderator
You're absolutely right, and I ought to have qualified my statement correspondingly. It is certainly true there are places and groups of people wherein no Christian - male or female - should blend in.
If going topless becomes standard, then we Christian women are simply going to have to stick out like a sore thumb, that's all.
But so long as the prevailing fashion (such as in an ordinary business establishment) is not inherently immodest, then we do better just going with the flow, though perhaps a bit more muted.
Good point of yours, and one I neglected to include. Thanks!
If going topless becomes standard, then we Christian women are simply going to have to stick out like a sore thumb, that's all.
But so long as the prevailing fashion (such as in an ordinary business establishment) is not inherently immodest, then we do better just going with the flow, though perhaps a bit more muted.
Good point of yours, and one I neglected to include. Thanks!
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I'm just trying to head off a return salvo. I mean, I picked on the brother's hat. I probably should get a punch in the nose for that.
You're out there getting macked on by worms and shot at by cannibals. I'm just a big coward hiding behind my computer.
You're out there getting macked on by worms and shot at by cannibals. I'm just a big coward hiding behind my computer.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Okay, I'm the 19th century farmers wife...but around here, that looks pretty liberal Seriously, I've tried hard to balance a little modernity with my modesty; something that is VERY difficult to do without having a ton of money to spend...so I've collected a blouse and skirt here and there. But I still do have my jumpers, billowy blouses, and yes, I even own a few capedresses (gasp! sorry, guys, for $3 at a yardsale and the most comfortable maternity dresses I've ever owned...I try not to wear them at church as they cause shock to some).
Back to Topic: Michael, I have to fully disagree with you. I don't wear makeup most of the time, but I do wear it for church and other special occasions...and not for reasons of vanity and pride. There are reasons some women wear makeup besides a sinful vanity. I'm against the Tammy Faye type make up I've seen. There is however, a manner of wearing makeup that doesn't produce what looks artificial.
In cases I've known, I've seen specialised makeup used on burn victims that make them look "normal". They don't look "made up" even though they are. The intent isn't vanity, but rather to avoid the fallout from the world's vanity around them (aka, it can affect careers, etc). My mother was a burn victim from the age of 8yrs...you have no idea how severe scars affect a person's life and the reactions of those around them.
In my case, I went for years without makeup until finally my husband and I both got tired of being asked about my health. In fact, it was another lady that was dressed with extreme modesty and covering that recommended to my husband that I start using makeup again to cover my conditions. Nothing like being a mother and constantly reminded how "sick" you look, "you look pale", "is anything wrong", "you look worn out from all those children", etc when I'm actually feeling GREAT! I deal with anemia, people! And then add that I have a persistent skin condition from childhood that is now spreading to my face. Vanity? Only in that I don't want people to think that I'm ill when I'm not. Only in that I don't want my skin flaking onto the people that I'm sitting next to and having a conversation with.
I would also like to point out that there are people that do the same as you just did with Scripture in pulling out negative passages that include makeup for earrings and other jewelry as well. Funny thing is, I've been banned from a board simply because I and several others pointed out that there are many passages that speak of earrings and jewelry in a positive light also. Where they say God disapproves of earrings, Scripture says that Christ himself will place earrings upon His Bride. Examples of this are also shown throughout the old testament in the lives of real people. And if we were to be honest with ourselves and carry the previous line of thinking onward, then we should all be naked, as the same negative passages state that God hates our garments. Oh, that would go against modesty! Maybe we should be looking at the "WHY" or the reason. Is it the garments themselves...or the intent behind? The NT had similar issues...not that there were those that were immodest, but rather they felt that their show of wealth made them above others in the church. It was the idea of placing ourselves where God has not placed us.
Context, brother
Seriously, I've tried hard to balance a little modernity with my modesty; something that is VERY difficult to do without having a ton of money to spend...so I've collected a blouse and skirt here and there. But I still do have my jumpers, billowy blouses, and yes, I even own a few capedresses (gasp! sorry, guys, for $3 at a yardsale and the most comfortable maternity dresses I've ever owned...I try not to wear them at church as they cause shock to some).Back to Topic: Michael, I have to fully disagree with you. I don't wear makeup most of the time, but I do wear it for church and other special occasions...and not for reasons of vanity and pride. There are reasons some women wear makeup besides a sinful vanity. I'm against the Tammy Faye type make up I've seen. There is however, a manner of wearing makeup that doesn't produce what looks artificial.
In cases I've known, I've seen specialised makeup used on burn victims that make them look "normal". They don't look "made up" even though they are. The intent isn't vanity, but rather to avoid the fallout from the world's vanity around them (aka, it can affect careers, etc). My mother was a burn victim from the age of 8yrs...you have no idea how severe scars affect a person's life and the reactions of those around them.
In my case, I went for years without makeup until finally my husband and I both got tired of being asked about my health. In fact, it was another lady that was dressed with extreme modesty and covering that recommended to my husband that I start using makeup again to cover my conditions. Nothing like being a mother and constantly reminded how "sick" you look, "you look pale", "is anything wrong", "you look worn out from all those children", etc when I'm actually feeling GREAT! I deal with anemia, people! And then add that I have a persistent skin condition from childhood that is now spreading to my face. Vanity? Only in that I don't want people to think that I'm ill when I'm not. Only in that I don't want my skin flaking onto the people that I'm sitting next to and having a conversation with.
I would also like to point out that there are people that do the same as you just did with Scripture in pulling out negative passages that include makeup for earrings and other jewelry as well. Funny thing is, I've been banned from a board simply because I and several others pointed out that there are many passages that speak of earrings and jewelry in a positive light also. Where they say God disapproves of earrings, Scripture says that Christ himself will place earrings upon His Bride. Examples of this are also shown throughout the old testament in the lives of real people. And if we were to be honest with ourselves and carry the previous line of thinking onward, then we should all be naked, as the same negative passages state that God hates our garments. Oh, that would go against modesty! Maybe we should be looking at the "WHY" or the reason. Is it the garments themselves...or the intent behind? The NT had similar issues...not that there were those that were immodest, but rather they felt that their show of wealth made them above others in the church. It was the idea of placing ourselves where God has not placed us.
Context, brother
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ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
My wife has always told me that the purpose for wearing makeup is to make it look like you are not wearing makeup. This does not appear to be the same purpose as face painting described in the passages in the opening post.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
My husband doesn't own a suit and I finally gave away his ties. His mother bought him another tie and it's sitting in a drawer.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
I have to say that this statement shows severe ignorance of the hearts of others.
I agree with the last line...but the assumption of the previous lines is ungracious. I know many of these women and have been, to some still am, one of these women. They aren't looking for attention. They are looking to obey God a manner foreign to many nowadays and to please their husbands. Please note also that modern (not stand outtish) modest clothing is sometimes difficult to find and mostly expensive (unlike immodest clothing that is sold for $5 up at the local WM). Some of the women rely on thrift stores and homesewing that may make them look more "out of place" to you. But they look in the mirror and see something beautiful for their husbands and a person that is attempting to be the feminine that God created her to be.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
My husband doesn't wear ties either. He had to be a pall bearer in a funeral this week, and we went into a frantic search to find one of this old ties that didn't look like it came from the 1960s.
I totally agree with both Gryphonette and Ladyflint concerning this - there is a balance between such extreme "separation" that causes those around us to gape and blending in so well that we are a part of the problem.
My former church has been taken over by a man who comes from the most legalistic church in our area - so legalistic that it is borderline cultic. The women there wear mostly 80's style long dresses and any pants that are worn do not have front zippers because they "pertaineth to a man". They also wear doilies. I have nothing against head coverings when they are worn because of personal conviction, but this is dictated (along with many other things) from the pulpit. The women from this particular church are commonly referred to as "doily heads". Some of them wear models that hang down to their waists - the example of the pharisees with their fringes immediately comes to mind. My 22yo daughter who is still trapped in our former church recently made the comment that these women stick out like sore thumbs and that their witness is damaged because people tend to give them wide berths in public and are awkward around them. Doilies have not yet been mandated by the man in charge of our former church but I know Sarah will have no part in it. She freaked out a few weeks ago when her 2yo dd playfully put a furniture doily on her head.
The questions of makeup, headcoverings, and extreme modesty come down in the end to what is in the heart. If one is convicted in the heart about these things then the result is a lovely woman who radiates the love of Christ. If it comes from legalistic teaching then that too, will be obvious. It is not too difficult to discern works of the flesh.
A while back Ken Klein wrote this in one of his posts:
"I think that if people are educated about the object of their worship, their posture and dress will work themselves out. But, I don't think it works the other way around. You can't get people to focus more on the object of their worship by making them focus more on what they are or are not doing with their bodies or what clothes they are wearing."
Blessings!
My former church has been taken over by a man who comes from the most legalistic church in our area - so legalistic that it is borderline cultic. The women there wear mostly 80's style long dresses and any pants that are worn do not have front zippers because they "pertaineth to a man". They also wear doilies. I have nothing against head coverings when they are worn because of personal conviction, but this is dictated (along with many other things) from the pulpit. The women from this particular church are commonly referred to as "doily heads". Some of them wear models that hang down to their waists - the example of the pharisees with their fringes immediately comes to mind. My 22yo daughter who is still trapped in our former church recently made the comment that these women stick out like sore thumbs and that their witness is damaged because people tend to give them wide berths in public and are awkward around them. Doilies have not yet been mandated by the man in charge of our former church but I know Sarah will have no part in it. She freaked out a few weeks ago when her 2yo dd playfully put a furniture doily on her head.
The questions of makeup, headcoverings, and extreme modesty come down in the end to what is in the heart. If one is convicted in the heart about these things then the result is a lovely woman who radiates the love of Christ. If it comes from legalistic teaching then that too, will be obvious. It is not too difficult to discern works of the flesh.
A while back Ken Klein wrote this in one of his posts:
"I think that if people are educated about the object of their worship, their posture and dress will work themselves out. But, I don't think it works the other way around. You can't get people to focus more on the object of their worship by making them focus more on what they are or are not doing with their bodies or what clothes they are wearing."
Blessings!
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I have a fairly large collection of jabots and I wear a different one everyday. Here is one of my church ensembles.
Great post Sue. It's ironic that the principle against admonitions in the OT & NT is to women to not draw attention to themselves but that some folks become so odd in their attempts to outdo one another with modesty that they end up doing the very thing. Whenever I see the Amish, my inclination is to gawk because their dress is so ostentantious in their attempt to be modest.
Prudence allows for modesty in a way that simplistic rules can never capture.
Prudence allows for modesty in a way that simplistic rules can never capture.
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