That's an interesting comment, especially when you consider that much of what we know as the Reformed Presbyterian tradition also came to the States via Scotland. If great good came from that place, certainly great evil could come from it as well.
Halloween
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That's an interesting comment, especially when you consider that much of what we know as the Reformed Presbyterian tradition also came to the States via Scotland. If great good came from that place, certainly great evil could come from it as well.
Whatever halloween is today, it should be forgotten. If you do any form of halloween on Oct 31th, each year, you'll remember it, ~AGAIN~. The Catholics tried to forget it by making that day, or the day before, a Saints Day but failed. Why not forget any meanings of halloween. Can you do it or is it impossible and the devil has won? If you do try to forget it, how will you do it?
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
Not sure if this has been mentioned in this long thread, but let's not forget the most pagan Holiday of all, Easter. I know that Easter is mentioned in the only real translation of the Bible (according to some), but...
If we decide not to celebrate holidays of pagan origin, than all but Thanksgiving and the Sabbath are out, though I do love to celebrate the resurrection of my Lord whenever I can.
If we decide not to celebrate holidays of pagan origin, than all but Thanksgiving and the Sabbath are out, though I do love to celebrate the resurrection of my Lord whenever I can.
We thank only a small group of Native Indians at the Pilgrim's table but later we kill millions of Indians and drive them to deserts and confine them in a cramped area. I'm not sure I would want to be thankful for that.
well, there's another celebration for which I seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick...!
The Scots don't have Thanksgiving (though I have been very pleased to see it creeping in among Christian students) but I always thought it was about thanking the Lord for all his current blessings, whatever they happen to be.
Only kidding, hope that doesn't sound like heavy irony, I was just amused!
Jon Peters
Puritan Board Sophomore
C.S. Lewis is neo-pagan?
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't understand this at all. If we trick or treat on Oct. 31, then the devil has won? WHAT? The devil's defeat has nothing to do with my keeping or not keeping certain days, nor will his victory.
I believe, on the contrary, that my not being bound to the pagan rituals, yet being free to have fun on Oct. 31, is a good thing. I am free! I do not have to worry about who did what when, because I am in Christ. Yes, I have to worry about my own heart and actions, so as to please the Lord. But because Joe Schmo worships Satan on Oct. 31 doesn't mean that I cannot worship the Lord.
I am of the opinion that I could have a muslim prayer mat in my house and wipe my feet on it in good conscience and with no fear of "Allah" appearing, so perhaps I am radical in my disregard for the customs of false religions.
We're always free to worship the Lord. But I wouldn't choose to do it in the context of a festival which has no ultimate rationale beyond celebrating witchcraft, vampires, death, the occult and everything dark.
It would seem too like Israel flocking to the golden calves under the persuasion that it was the Lord they were honouring.
It's better to err on the safe side I think - and the pagans are watching
It would seem too like Israel flocking to the golden calves under the persuasion that it was the Lord they were honouring.
It's better to err on the safe side I think - and the pagans are watching
CatherineL
Puritan Board Freshman
Re: the pagans watching - the pagans, from personal experience, generally think that little kids walking around with families is the annoying commercialized version of the holiday.
To insist that letting your kids dress up and walk around getting treats from neighbors - having, at least how it plays out in our neighborhood - a night of innocent family fun that has little if any modern relevance to evil festivals - is indisputably a bad witness and sinful - which has been implied not so subtly throughout this thread - is quite offensive to Christians who have differing convictions. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed already.
To insist that letting your kids dress up and walk around getting treats from neighbors - having, at least how it plays out in our neighborhood - a night of innocent family fun that has little if any modern relevance to evil festivals - is indisputably a bad witness and sinful - which has been implied not so subtly throughout this thread - is quite offensive to Christians who have differing convictions. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed already.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't think anyone has been offensive, have they? I certainly had no intention of being, and I apologize if I have. It's just that every time I turn away, I'm amazed all over again that Christians can see godliness in the festival that fills the shops with skulls, ghouls, witches and all the paraphernalia of horror and the occult. I can see that it's possible to do it harmlessly, especially with small children who really know nothing about what's going on - but it's the occasion itself that's the problem. What IS its point if you took away everything evil and creepy from the imagery?
-----Added 10/15/2009 at 03:40:24 EST-----
-----Added 10/15/2009 at 03:40:24 EST-----
....not sure I understood the implication of this, but I can't help asking- if that's the annoying commercialized version, what would that mean the real deal was?
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't use the festivities TO worship the Lord.
Could I own a calf that happens to be made of gold? Certainly. Can I use it to worship God? Certainly not.
CatherineL
Puritan Board Freshman
Jenny, I mean that they are irritated with the lightheartedness, the fun, the silliness, the often overt family atmosphere that halloween is associated with. Its because, at least in most places in America, it doesn't have the meaning that the pagans ascribe to it. If it did we'd all be scared away in our beds and certainly not let our kids out of the house! Sure there's a lot of adults having dress up parties, but that's just an excuse to be silly I think. In any case, its not clear cut simply because by dressing up and getting candy no one is worshipping demons. If they were this would be pretty simple, but its just not. Its easy here to take the fun and leave out the creepy. You asked about the point - the point for most kids are candy and dressing up. The point for most parents are cute costumes, meet the neighbors. For some adults its going to costume parties. If you're delighting in evil, you shouldn't do halloween, I agree. But its not as simple as that here in the States. In any case, I get the distinct impression that we are:
TrueJenny, I mean that they are irritated with the lightheartedness, the fun, the silliness, the often overt family atmosphere that halloween is associated with. Its because, at least in most places in America, it doesn't have the meaning that the pagans ascribe to it. If it did we'd all be scared away in our beds and certainly not let our kids out of the house! Sure there's a lot of adults having dress up parties, but that's just an excuse to be silly I think. In any case, its not clear cut simply because by dressing up and getting candy no one is worshipping demons. If they were this would be pretty simple, but its just not. Its easy here to take the fun and leave out the creepy. You asked about the point - the point for most kids are candy and dressing up. The point for most parents are cute costumes, meet the neighbors. For some adults its going to costume parties. If you're delighting in evil, you shouldn't do halloween, I agree. But its not as simple as that here in the States. In any case, I get the distinct impression that we are:
I was thinking of saying much the same, I mean this isn't going anywhere!this is my time for bowing out in any case as it's bedtime here, so a good chance to
and agree to differ.God bless you. I'm quite certain there's nothing amiss in the way YOU keep Halloween!
Skyler
Puritan Board Graduate
After reading many posts on this thread, I still can not grasp why Christians want to celebrate Halloween. People say, well we don't celebrate it that way that the world does. I don't think it's a matter of how you celebrate this holiday. The very nature of the holiday Halloween is wrong. Its based on occultism and it still has links to the occult. It also makes light of some serious evil. Next we'll have Christians celebrating the "good" aspects of gay pride day.
Why not celebrate a different holiday? We have a fantastic holiday to celebrate. It's called Reformation Day. Celebrate the great truths that came out of the Reformation.
-----Added 10/12/2009 at 11:48:54 EST-----
Even if the ancestral connection is so lost as to be meaningless now, the RCC connection is relatively recent and their attachment to it also places it under false religion and popery. Either way, you don't get to celebrate it.
I don't celebrate it, so that's not a problem for me.
edit: But my original question still stands.
Halloween is still based in occultism and evil. Halloween hasn't just become a Harvest Festival without the witches and devils and lanterns. Because if Halloween got rid of all the evil aspects to it, and it was still called Halloween, then I wouldn't mind celebrating Halloween. But since it still has some truly wicked aspects to it, I'll keep celebrating the Reformation.
So the problem with Halloween is not that it has a pagan/occult history, but that it still is to some extent pagan/occult? Would you say then that those who participate in Halloween are taking part in pagan rituals by doing so? If so, would those same actions be pagan rituals if they were not associated with Halloween?
Of course, I agree. That was just the first example that came to mind.
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
I read somewhere, long ago, that C.S. Lewis wasn't a Calvinist but an Arminian. Is that true?
To make halloween history simple: The weather gets cold, spirits from the dead underworld comes in the nearest house to get warm by the fireplace. The home owner puts food outside the door so the evil spirits won't come in. The pumpkin means: "Please don't kidnap any more of my precious virgin daughters, my youngest one were already taken by others for their satanic rituals (death by knife-human sacrifice to Lucifer)"
Today: it's the same. Home owners put candy outside so the children who dresses up in whatever they desire to represent, the demonic spirits that stalks the homes in cold weather and gets the candy. The pumpkin means, "DON'T TOUCH MY FAMILY, PERIOD!"
Summery: The home owners participate in the devil's ancient rituals by placing candy (food for spirits) and pumpkins and evil environments outside and the children represents the spirits seeking a warm place or food (candy).
My Lord is saddened by His children for believing in the spirits roaming in the underworld. Dead corpses don't have spirits knocking on your door and they are Demons. When you happily greet them with excitement, you greet demons and the devil might have won your soul. Read the histories of Oct 31st and see for yourself.
Although, I give candy to the kids but I do acknowledge the evil tendencies and role I play in this evil demonic rituals, every year. In my heart, the Lord knows I care less about the silly rituals. Knowing you're guilty and will have to answer on judgment day is probably all that matters. I'm very shameful and deeply sadden of halloween (halloween don't deserve an upper cap "H"). Go ahead and have a Trunk-n-treat on God's parking lots, it's the same no matter how you do it.
-----Added 10/16/2009 at 06:32:09 EST-----
Oh! Sorry. I'm an artist. I just see a bunch of Indians sitting at the Pilgrims table on canvases in art museums. A single picture is worth a 1,000 words. Did someone, here, say that Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the pilgrims? Lets make a picture worth 2,000 words.
What is Thanksgiving, again?
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I am sure the Lord is saddened by His children who believe in spirits roaming in the underworld. I don't hold that belief, so my Halloween practices should not sadden him--that is precisely my point.
I think, as a sister, that if you believe that it is sinful to give out candy, you would certainly want to stop. I am sure that we aren't supposed to play any role in what we feel are evil demonic rituals.
I was thinking about this thread and the other side's argument, which some say matters because of the witness it sends to the world. I have to say, I have never, to my knowledge, been judged by any in the world for Halloween, but only by other Christians!! I cannot see why anyone in the world, who is not using Oct. 31 to worship Satan or Pumpkins or ward off Spirits, having any reason to judge. My non-Christian friends do not think they are being Satanic, so they obviously don't think the Christians who practice Halloween are Satanic either. The same goes for my Christian friends who let their kids get candy.
I cannot say for certain that this is a weaker brother issue, but what I can say is that I was given my own conscience for a reason. Sure, I want to be shown my sin when my conscience grows mute, but I think that needs to be done with Scripture Alone, and not tradition, if you really hope to bring conviction and not mere blame.
Satan doesn't own Oct 31st either. If you can change the meaning of halloween, great, but to me, it doesn't look that way, for now, maybe later
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
You didn't happen to go to public school did you? Art is great, but you may want to study a little History to avoid revisionism and political correctness (not that it matters much, but I'm 1/4 Cherokee).
The pilgrims didn't give thanks to the Indians, they gave thanks to God.
"We ordain that the day of our ships arrival at the place assigned for plantation in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perpetually kept holy as a day of thanksgiving to Almighty God." (Charter of Berkley Plantation. 1619)
"our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together, after we had gathered the fruits of our labors; they four in one day killed as much fowl, as with a little help beside, served the Company almost a week, at which time amongst other Recreations, we exercised our Arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five Deer, which they brought to the Plantation and bestowed on our Governor, and upon the Captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful, as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want, that we often wish you partakers of our plenty." (Edward Winslow, Mourt's Relation)
You may also want to read George Washingtons's Thanksgiving Proclamation
You may feel free to not celebrate the Holiday, but attempts to bind the consciences of other who wish to based on revisionist history is sad to say the least.
Ivan
Pastor
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Why, oh, why did you post this photo?! Now I'll not be able to sleep for days!!!
Jon Peters
Puritan Board Sophomore
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