John MacArthur

[RamistThomist]

I don't know if Zoomer sees your problem as his problem though? I can only deal with the post shown, as I'm not familiar with Zoomer in general. And while I don't agree on his questioning MacArthurs salvation, if he was a previous MacArthur hater, it doesn't seem out of touch to continue with that energy at his passing. But, it looks like because of backlash he has recanted. And this goes to show, that those who previously felt free (and will again soon enough) to bash MacArthur while he was living, are probably not doing so now; not so much out of reverence, but to avoid backlash. And, it is not an easy thing not to follow the crowd, regardless if one is ultimately right or wrong. I dont give much credence to the apology because it hasn't changed his mind about his perceived salvific standings of MacArthur, but instead seems only to seek to appease the offended.

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He is an influencer first, a theology student second. He routinely makes terrible statements and then gets angry at the rest of the Reformed world for not agreeing with him. To be sure, this isn't the worst thing he's ever said (we have a thread on that somewhere).

 

[MW]

As with others I disagreed with some of his teachings, but I honour his unwavering commitment to biblical inerrancy, the authority of Scripture, the proclamation of the Gospel, the five points of Calvinism, justification by faith alone, Protestant piety, and appreciation for the Puritans. Many in the Reformed tradition have profited from his bold stand against theological liberalism, charismatic excesses, and moral compromise in the church.

MacArthur’s death is a loss for the church militant, but we can rejoice that he is now with Christ. His great legacy will be the decades of expository preaching and his stand against anti-biblical cultural trends. May we all strive to serve as faithfully as he did in the areas where he stood firm.

Gentlemen, there is a time and a place for dealing with his public teaching and ministry. It isn't while the moment of passing is fresh on people's minds.

 

[ZackF]

RYM, GTY and WHI were three main inputs the Lord used to bring Reformed theology to me in my Catholic days. Thanks to God for John MacArthur’s ministry.

 

[Steve Curtis]

You sure do talk a lot Dave, and not always with wisdom.

There is a time and place for such criticism. I have been a vocal critic of the guy because I have a lot more inside knowledge than most people who only listen to his sermons and know him from afar. I have tried to point out many of the red flags that have been made public (I haven't publicly shared everything I know through private conversations, some with MacArthur's own family members) yet many only wish to believe what they want to believe about someone and don't care to look at contrary evidence. I think it is one of the reasons we have so many scandals with big name ministers - people refuse to see the truth even when God reveals problems along the way. They would rather place their minister superheroes on pedestals and make them into little gods.

Recall I also called out Steve Lawson more than once here for his ridiculous behavior and comments before he was exposed and took a bit of flack for that - maybe because many are so impressed by a person's speaking ability that they get starstruck and refuse to see the man through the rhetoric.

Think what you want, MacArthur was a mixed bag. I praise God for the good God chose to work in Him (I give God the credit and very little to MacArthur). I also praise God for glorification and I know he is finally repentant of all the pain and havoc he caused in his own church and the churches he influenced.

Did I miss something? You write as though you were attacked, but I didn't see any evidence of that - or that you were personally even in view in Dave's post. Again, maybe I missed something...

 

[Henoch]

Redeemed Zoomer is a neophyte who's ignorant of Scripture
He can't read the Bible in context or make a single proper argument from Scripture
All he says is yeah some random historical protestant said this and that, while ignoring the fact that they proved their doctrines from Scripture

I'm not sure what you mean to be honest. My main concern is that he is absolute sure Pope Francis was a Christian but doubts John MacArthur. This is not too say MacArthur didn't have issues, all people do, but to deny his Christianity while affirming the bishop of Rome is crazy to me.

 

[John Nyberg]

There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It is true that MacArthur with face stricter judement, all teachers will. Yet is should be clear to all that John is a child of God and chosen by him for great things. MacArthur now beholds the face of the Almighty, while we squabble over his legacy. MacArthur's trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and now by sight has seen them removed as far as the east is from the west! He has no memory of them! Maybe we should also forget his faults.

 

[Herald]

Gentlemen, there is a time and a place for dealing with his public teaching and ministry. It isn't while the moment of passing is fresh on people's minds.

Agreed. I have been grieved over what I consider "Reformed virtue signaling" when all that is needed is to praise God for John MacArthur's faithfulness in the areas you mentioned. The other things can wait.

 

[Ray]

Thought you guys might enjoy this.

 

[davejonescue]

Thought you guys might enjoy this.

Saw this one earlier I liked.

 

[DanSSwing]

Thought you guys might enjoy this.

One of them is now right on baptism. The other is right on eschatology. I won’t say which is which.

 

[ZackF]

One of them is now right on baptism. The other is right on eschatology. I won’t say which is which.

They are both correct on all doctrines now.

 

[TheInquirer]

Gentlemen, there is a time and a place for dealing with his public teaching and ministry. It isn't while the moment of passing is fresh on people's minds.

Yet this is the time when people are reflecting on his legacy and at the same time heaping unqualified (as in "without important qualifications") praise upon the man - the result of which rubs salt in the wounds of all he has mistreated over the years. We are not at the man's Memorial Service nor are we in the presence of his family members to require such sensitivity.

When you have a pastor who sheltered a man in his congregation who was severely abusing his family (now serving something like 22 years in prison for such crimes) and chose to publicly discipline the wife who wanted to leave the man, and has not publicly repented for it (along with the laundry list of other things he's done and never repented for), the issue becomes a witness to the unbelieving world when they see us praising such a one.

There is a reason the word of God stresses character so heavily in the passages on elder/pastor requirements yet in this situation, all that tends to be the focus on here is the man's teaching which was itself tainted with error and arrogance.

As I said, I agree in giving God the glory for the good done through MacArthur. I do not agree in cherry picking his life and ministry and whitewashing his sins to make him look good, especially in light of his lack of public repentance.

 

[MW]

When you have a pastor who sheltered a man in his congregation who was severely abusing his family (now serving something like 22 years in prison for such crimes) and chose to publicly discipline the wife who wanted to leave the man, and has not publicly repented for it (along with the laundry list of other things he's done and never repented for), the issue becomes a witness to the unbelieving world when they see us praising such a one.

Being well acquainted with how unbelievers act when people die, I am fairly sure they would also say there is a time and place for these things. They would probably ask, Where is our humanity? But if you are of a mind to proceed, the thread is yours.

 

[Andrew35]

Being well acquainted with how unbelievers act when people die, I am fairly sure they would also say there is a time and place for these things. They would probably ask, Where is our humanity? But if you are of a mind to proceed, the thread is yours.

weeeell... I was a member of the old Newsvine community (anyone remember them?) when old Jerry Falwell died, and pretty sure the nicest thing I recall people saying was some version of, "You should never speak ill of the dead. He's dead. Good."

 

[DanSSwing]

I’m going to make a wild guess and say I’m probably the only person in this forum who has actually met Jerry Falwell, Sr. but neither MacArthur nor Sproul.

 

[Herald]

I’m going to make a wild guess and say I’m probably the only person in this forum who has actually met Jerry Falwell, Sr. but neither MacArthur nor Sproul.

I bit of a rabbit trail...

When I attended the Word of Life Bible Institute (1988) I worked as a leader in the Ranch and Ranger Camp for the summer. Every Thursday there was a rodeo. Jerry Falwell, Sr. happened to attend on one particular Thursday. He was up on the viewing stand at the rodeo and I was in the camp administrative office. A phone call came in from Rev. Falwell's secretary. She said it was urgent and that I needed to get him on the phone ASAP. So, with no means other than my feet I walked the 1/2 mile to the rodeo. I informed Rev. Falwell of the urgent phone call and walked him to the office. He was very cordial. He spent the minutes we were walking trying to recruit me to go to Liberty.

Sidenote. That same year John MacArthur visited Word of Life as a one-day adjunct professor. I got to meet him. I never met R.C. Sproul, although I did see him on the dais at a Ligonier Conference in Orlando some years back.

 

[Jack K]

I’m going to make a wild guess and say I’m probably the only person in this forum who has actually met Jerry Falwell, Sr. but neither MacArthur nor Sproul.

Well, your guess is wrong, my friend. Back when I was a young man working in television news and covering the Jim Bakker/Heritage USA scandal, I once gave Jerry Falwell a ride from a hotel he was staying at to our studio so we could interview him there. But I never met Sproul or MacArthur.

 

[DanSSwing]

Well, your guess is wrong, my friend. Back when I was a young man working in television news and covering the Jim Bakker/Heritage USA scandal, I once gave Jerry Falwell a ride from a hotel he was staying at to our studio so we could interview him there. But I never met Sproul or MacArthur.

Good thing I’m not a betting man!

 

[Steve Curtis]

Well, I never met Falwell, but I did meet MacArthur and Sproul. The MacArthur meet was brief (during the Puritan Conference at Grace in 2022), but I was blessed to have several conversations with Sproul over the years.

 

[LilyG]

When you have a pastor who sheltered a man in his congregation who was severely abusing his family (now serving something like 22 years in prison for such crimes) and chose to publicly discipline the wife who wanted to leave the man, and has not publicly repented

The man even admitted to a GCC pastor and elder that he had abused and tried to suffocate the boy! The whole case was so horribly mishandled.

 

[lynnie]

I was somewhat shocked to see so much positive commenting here. I am very grateful to brother Jim "the Inquirer" for speaking up on behalf of sheep who were trashed. There is never a better time to make things right with people who were wronged than the minute right now in front of you.

I have to assume this lauding of JM is based on ignorance or delusion, or being convinced all the accounts are false. I looked up the story mentioned above and the Christianity Today article on it came right up. This is a follow up. The former elder and lawyer is "lies"???

Despite Documented Evidence of Fault, Grace Community Church Calls Christianity Today Report ‘Lies’

In a Feb. 9 article for @CTmagazine, @kateshellnutt interviews former GCC elder Hohn Cho, who says the church is “playing Russian roulette” with counseling, especially regarding at-risk women and children.

churchleaders.com

I read about this episode below years ago when I was following the SGM churches ( Mahaney) story. For anybody new, that was just more of bungled sex abuse horrors covered up, swept under the rug, and perps being supported and victims ignored or accused. Boz "rhymes with religion" from GRACE said that in about 3/4 of the churches they deal with this happens- molesters get coddled and victims get mistreated, even children.

Anyway, I found this on a quick search: https://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/0...asters-college-now-university/comment-page-1/

The original I read years ago had a lot more. The girl grew up in JM's church and her parents got involved in this, and MacArthur himself was involved after the first meetings. He supported his staff 100% and the girl was told not to go to the cops ( too late), and then to not press charges (the cops told her they were sure the guy had done it before), and unless something happened since, Masters erased three years of her college credits for not going along with their wrong demands. You can read it or skip it as you please.

Somebody sent me this quote from a staff member at Chalcedon ( the Rushdooney gang). For what it's worth:

It reminds me of Selbrede saying (backed up with scripture references) that God's standard for dealing with serious sin on the part of church leadership, as opposed to members in general, is "one strike and you're out." So much damage is done when this is disregarded because the leader's ministry is supposedly too important.

 

[John Nyberg]

Psalm 130:3 "
"If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?"

It is curious that the death of a saint, an evengelical at that, spawns so much vain speach and accusation! Who amoung us will not have regrets when we face our own deaths? Are we wiser than David, who says "Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults"? (Psalm 19:12)

Some here claim to have a "laundry list" of accusations to bring against John MacArthur, yet our heavenly Father has but one list for his children: the book of life.

How wonderful to have a God who has a worse memory than some of his children! While others cite articles of the mans shortcomings, God says: "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more." Hebrews 8:12

Death is a great teacher indeed, but few here seem to understand the lesson. Fortunately, the lesson is old and well documented, for Solomon writes: "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12: 7-8) Death is meant to point us to the vanity of life! How swifty our days pass, each on bringing us closer to judgment! How vaporous is our life! Perhaps, instead of casting stones and accusations we should "Fear God and keep his commandments" (Ecclesiastes 12:13) in light of our approaching demise. This is the proper christian response to the death of a saint.

I will end my rant with a poem by George Herbert. It is fitting for this thread, for he is commenting on those who believe they will stand before God in judgment based on the merit of their own personal (laundry) list of good deeds rather than the finished work of Christ! It is titled "judgment."

"ALmighty Judge, how shall poore wretches brook
Thy dreadfull look,
Able a heart of iron to appall,
When thou shalt call
For ev’ry mans peculiar book?

What others mean to do, I know not well,
Yet I heare tell,
That some will turn thee to some leaves therein
So void of sinne,
That they in merit shall excell.

But I resolve, when thou shalt call for mine,
That to decline,
And thrust a Testament into thy hand:
Let that be scann’d.
There thou shalt finde my faults are thine."

 

[davejonescue]

It is curious that the death of a saint, an evengelical at that, spawns so much vain speach and accusation! Who amoung us will not have regrets when we face our own deaths? Are we wiser than David, who says "Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults"? (Psalm 19:12)

Take a testament from the Bible. Jesus was perfect, yet still scores screamed "crucify him." No man in any sort of public ministry will pass away despised by no one. You can look up almost anybody online and add "scandal, heresy, etc." to the end of their name and get a laundry list of accusations and vitriol. MacArthur is no different. It is what it is.

 

[lynnie]

Brother John..... "Perhaps, instead of casting stones and accusations we should "Fear God and keep his commandments" (Ecclesiastes 12:13) in light of our approaching demise. This is the proper christian response to the death of a saint."

You could be correct if this was about beliefs on the rapture, Israel, the Jews, and the future. You could be correct ( I don't agree but it could be agreed to disagree) if it was concerns about many other things in the past at JMs ministry- plagarism, accusations, harshness, and all the many criticisms and concerns. One could even argue that adults who are mistreated can entrust their souls to God in faith and move on. Taking the logs out of our own eyes is always a good decision for our own life.

But little kids who were sexually molested and then essentially thrown under the proverbial bus by a church staff- no, absolutely not. There is only one response and that is to make sure that in no way at all, even by your silence, you cause one of these little ones to stumble. Better to hang a few cinderblocks around your neck and go drown yourself.

Anything short of public apology and public admission of serious wrongdoing to sexually molested children is, in the words of Jesus, worthy of death. Doing whatever you can to make things right where sexually abused children are involved is the proper Christian response. It is not to "believe they will stand before God in judgment based on the merit of their own personal (laundry) list of good deeds rather than the finished work of Christ!". No, it is not self righteousness. It is caring about the least of these, it is obedience to the Lord.

 

[davejonescue]

While I wasn't there, nor was privy to what goes on in Elder meetings at Grace, doing a little bit of research on the issue brings up a good point by Cho, who seems was asked to go over the case. That is, it isn't necessarily the Elders fault that the children, in what looks like to be an isolated case from 2004, were being abused by their father. But it is the fault of the Elders that they took the side of the Father. Meaning, that just like Cho is saying, if they were in error, they should have shown repentance, asked for forgiveness, and modeled humility. Even if it were years later. For some reason they never have, and that is an issue. But again, I do not know the whole story, only the side of the people who seem to take issue with Grace.

On the issue regarding spousal reconciliation within the realm of counseling, I am not so easily swayed. Because I do believe we live in an era where people are trying to expand the definition of abuse to dislikes rather than detriments. And I don't think the Bible teaches that. I think God hates divorce, and that in any type of brink of separation, divorce should only be used as the last resort, and that all means of reconciliation should be exhausted before it comes to that. And it is a shame to see many that still hold to that belief, (as it appears to becoming more rare) be regarded in a slanderous manner.

As far as MacArthur's theology. Its not a big deal to me as nobody is going to be barred from glory for being a Pre-mill Dispensationalist. If the evidence of that position is what ones conscience considers true, that is the same thing that drives all convictions, for all positions, from all men. Even on this Board, though Confessional, there is a broad spectrum of opinions of different points, and I am sure each person is thoroughly convinced.

Lastly, I also have to look at some of the contemporary Pastoral giants who have associated themselves with MacArthur, knowing full well they have considered these things much deeper and more thorough than me. People like Baucham, Washer, Beeke, Sproul, Piper, DeYoung, S. Ferguson, M. Reeves, C. Trueman, I. Hamilton, Duncan, G. Thomas, etc. and the list can go on. This is why I am not so quick to make hasty judgements as an outsider reading miscellaneous articles and blog-posts. These men know the accusations, are most likely more privy to "insider" info than many of us, yet did not feel that whatever had transpired was a reason to disfellowship or denounce Grace's ministry. And to me, that means something.

 

[retroGRAD3]

While I wasn't there, nor was privy to what goes on in Elder meetings at Grace, doing a little bit of research on the issue brings up a good point by Cho, who seems was asked to go over the case. That is, it isn't necessarily the Elders fault that the children, in what looks like to be an isolated case from 2004, were being abused by their father. But it is the fault of the Elders that they took the side of the Father. Meaning, that just like Cho is saying, if they were in error, they should have shown repentance, asked for forgiveness, and modeled humility. Even if it were years later. For some reason they never have, and that is an issue. But again, I do not know the whole story, only the side of the people who seem to take issue with Grace.

On the issue regarding spousal reconciliation within the realm of counseling, I am not so easily swayed. Because I do believe we live in an era where people are trying to expand the definition of abuse to dislikes rather than detriments. And I don't think the Bible teaches that. I think God hates divorce, and that in any type of brink of separation, divorce should only be used as the last resort, and that all means of reconciliation should be exhausted before it comes to that. And it is a shame to see many that still hold to that belief, (as it appears to becoming more rare) be regarded in a slanderous manner.

As far as MacArthur's theology. Its not a big deal to me as nobody is going to be barred from glory for being a Pre-mill Dispensationalist. If the evidence of that position is what ones conscience considers true, that is the same thing that drives all convictions, for all positions, from all men. Even on this Board, though Confessional, there is a broad spectrum of opinions of different points, and I am sure each person is thoroughly convinced.

Lastly, I also have to look at some of the contemporary Pastoral giants who have associated themselves with MacArthur, knowing full well they have considered these things much deeper and more thorough than me. People like Baucham, Washer, Beeke, Sproul, Piper, DeYoung, S. Ferguson, M. Reeves, C. Trueman, I. Hamilton, Duncan, G. Thomas, etc. and the list can go on. This is why I am not so quick to make hasty judgements as an outsider reading miscellaneous articles and blog-posts. These men know the accusations, are most likely more privy to "insider" info than many of us, yet did not feel that whatever had transpired was a reason to disfellowship or denounce Grace's ministry. And to me, that means something.

Well said.

 

[LilyG]

On the issue regarding spousal reconciliation within the realm of counseling, I am not so easily swayed. Because I do believe we live in an era where people are trying to expand the definition of abuse to any dislike defined. And I don't think the Bible teaches that. I do think God hates divorce, and that in any type of brink of separation, divorce should only be used as the last resort, and that all means of reconciliation should be exhausted before it comes to that.

The problem with the GCC case is that they shamed and pressured the woman to reconcile despite evidence of child abuse. Even after admission from the father.

As I'm sure you know, by law the staff is required to report suspected abuse, and 2 pastors were written up by the LAPD for their failure to do so.
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, in what looks like to be an isolated case from 2004, were being abused by their father.

The child abuse case may have been isolated, but other abuse cases have come out.

A Faithful Elder Stands Up For The Sheep - The Heidelblog

Last year, Hohn Cho concluded Grace Community Church had made a mistake. The elders had publicly disciplined a woman for refusing to take back her husband. As it turned out, the woman’s fears proved true, and her husband went to prison for child molestation and abuse. The church never retracted its…

heidelblog.net

 

[davejonescue]

As I'm sure you know, by law the staff is required to report suspected abuse, and 2 pastors were written up by the LAPD for their failure to do so.

By law they were required to shut the doors of their church during COVID too, and Grace's stance brought the whole plan to close churches in Cali to its knees. As far as what they did or didn't do in the 2004 case, I don't know, I wasn't there, and looking online I can only find articles against them and none from their side. They may feel they had perfectly good reasons for not doing so. And from the looks of it, it appears that more humility in their mistakes could and can be had. But with such a case, and as I had mentioned formerly, I can only conclude it wasn't as cut and dry as it appears. And as an outsider, I have little room to speculate and very little room to believe these other Pastors, who are held in the same, if not greater esteem, have formed a conspiracy to protect MacArthur at all cost by continuing to associate with Grace. I don't know, MacArthur is gone. It will be up to the new leadership to lead Grace into the future. And I pray for the best.

 

[RamistThomist]

By law they were required to shut the doors of their church during COVID too, and Grace's stance brought the whole plan to close churches in Cali to its knees. As far as what they did or didn't do in the 2004 case, I don't know, I wasn't there, and looking online I can only find articles against them and none from their side. They may feel they had perfectly good reasons for not doing so. And from the looks of it, it appears that more humility in their mistakes could and can be had. But with such a case, and as I had mentioned formerly, I can only conclude it wasn't as cut and dry as it appears. And as an outsider, I have little room to speculate and very little room to believe these other Pastors, who are held in the same, if not greater esteem, have formed a conspiracy to protect MacArthur at all cost by continuing to associate with Grace. I don't know, MacArthur is gone. It will be up to the new leadership to lead Grace into the future. And I pray for the best.

Ignoring a Covid mandate is one thing. Something all patriots must do. Dropping the ball on a child molester and then shaming the wife is another.
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I can only conclude it wasn't as cut and dry as it appears.

It's a child molester. It's by definition cut and dried.

 

[davejonescue]

Ignoring a Covid mandate is one thing. Something all patriots must do. Dropping the ball on a child molester and then shaming the wife is another.
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It's a child molester. It's by definition cut and dried.

I'm done talking about it. I wasn't there, he is dead. And like I said, other Pastors I hold in high esteem, I am sure thoroughly weighed the issue and found no fault. If you would like to, you are free to, and so is anyone else. Please, carry on.