Lifting hands, expressing emotion ?

[Semper Fidelis]

We have pews outside of church. We just don't call them pews. The're called park benches....

 

[alwaysreforming]

Lifting Hands

I have a personal anecdote from last Sunday's worship service at my church.

At the end of the service, the "band" was singing a song and everyone was seated.
One person was apparantly so "caught up in the spirit" that she had her hand up in the air. She was the only one! Everyone else was just sitting there listening to the song, except for this lady who was making a spectacle of herself waving her hand and arm around everywhere (I think she might have even stood up, even though everyone else is seated)... she looked ridiculous. Before I rushed to judgment against her and that it was not really the Spirit moving her, I tried one last time to assess the situation: sure enough I was right. It wasn't the Spirit, for the song that was being sung was "Bridge Over Troubled Water" by Garfunkle or whoever... how is raising your hands to that glorifying Christ??? She just liked the "tune" and that's why she was waving around!

 

[Davidius]

I have a personal anecdote from last Sunday's worship service at my church.

At the end of the service, the "band" was singing a song and everyone was seated.
One person was apparantly so "caught up in the spirit" that she had her hand up in the air. She was the only one! Everyone else was just sitting there listening to the song, except for this lady who was making a spectacle of herself waving her hand and arm around everywhere (I think she might have even stood up, even though everyone else is seated)... she looked ridiculous. Before I rushed to judgment against her and that it was not really the Spirit moving her, I tried one last time to assess the situation: sure enough I was right. It wasn't the Spirit, for the song that was being sung was "Bridge Over Troubled Water" by Garfunkle or whoever... how is raising your hands to that glorifying Christ??? She just liked the "tune" and that's why she was waving around!

This sounds very much like the experience I had in the very first congregation of which I was a part after being converted. We had a choir and a small band and every Sunday there would be a time when the band would play and the choir would sing while the congregation remained seated and did not participate. Eventually, every single time one person would get "so moved" by the performance that they would raise one or both hands in the air. Then, the "Spirit would just be so strong" that the one person would have to stand up by themselves in front of the entire congregation. Eventually this would catch on and several other people would be so moved that they would catch up and a shortly thereafter the entire congregation would be standing on its feet. This would happen every single Sunday, like it was in the bulletin or something.

Like I said earlier, I don't have a problem with various postures in worship. But it should be done congregationally because public worship is about worshipping God as one united body. This is destroyed when individuals get to just do their own thing because they're "moved." It's usually just sentimentalism induced by the emotional affects of things in music (dynamics, etc). But even if it's not, the first point is still legitimate.

 

[Chris]

the song that was being sung was "Bridge Over Troubled Water" by Garfunkle or whoever

Please forgive me - when I read that I thought your church must be 'reformed seeker sensitive', playing Simon&Garfunkel instead of U2........

Uh, seriously....what's the reasoning behind playing that song in a worship service?

 

[raekwon]

We have pews outside of church. We just don't call them pews. The're called park benches....

Yep. I stopped calling 'em "pews" long ago . . . they're benches.

 

[KMK]

Please forgive me - when I read that I thought your church must be 'reformed seeker sensitive', playing Simon&Garfunkel instead of U2........

Uh, seriously....what's the reasoning behind playing that song in a worship service?

Don't you get it? Jesus is like a bridge that takes you over the troubled waters of poverty to the promised land of prosperity!

 

[Gloria]

LifeInReturn,


I felt compelled to raise my hands in worship, and I didn't know how 'other people' would look at me either, but something that really weighed down on my heart concerning that was...I was making other peoples opinions and what THEY would think, more important than what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart to do.

So I started raising my hands in worship when singing as I felt led to do so, a few of the elderly in our church (70's and 80's) have made comments to me, nothing negative, just they had felt led to do the same, but were concerned about how 'others' would percieve them. I just hugged them and let them know, if they feel compelled to raise thier hands in praise for all God has done for them, then raise their hands in praise to God, that IS why we are there anyway, right? to Worship God! Not other people.

But something to consider, if they are looking at you, their focus is on you, and not God. Which is something the Holy Spirit has convicted me of, am I there looking for the approval of men or to worship God?

you never know, others in your congregation may have the same fear you do, "what will 'other people' think if I raise my hands in praise to God when I sing?" Which is ultimately the fear of man, and not God. And you never know, if you lift your hands, if others have the same fear, it may encourage them to overcome the same fear of mans opinion.

Great discussion, Jenn!

 

[shelly]

Letting individuals in the congregation express their devotion however they want in the pews leads to a fragmented body worshipping "on their own" instead of with everyone around them, which can be distracting and take away from the unification of the worshipping body of saints. .

In a church that is "silent" during worship, one lone amen is distracting. In a church where you hear "amen!, Yes" and hands are lifted up in worship etc. then it's not distracting. It becomes a participation in an audible and visible way of the worship that's going on with everyone around you. It's joining in. It's not fragmented. We don't have to be cookie cutters to be unified in worship.

shelly

 

[Andrew P.C.]

I was talking to my friend Brandon about the disconnect between sound doctrine and worship. In most PCA churches, the teaching is on point, but the worship is ‘dry’. By ‘dry’, I mean there is no lifting of hands, no moving, just standing there holding your hymn book and singing along with everyone. At the charismatic churches, the teaching is not always on point, but the worship is. Hands are raised, knees are bent. Personally, I am a ‘lift hands’ type of girl when singing, praying, and worshipping. I kneel and sometimes tears are shed, but if I were to do that at my current church (a PCA), I’d be looked at as if I just grew an arm out of my forehead. Where is the ‘happy medium’ ? One of the many things I admire about Epiphany Fellowship (in Philly) is that there is a beautiful merge of the two - doctrinally sound teaching and heartfelt worship. I’d love to be able to be in church with my hands raised while singing hymns without being looked at in an odd fashion. In this area, I think the church lacks… no proper marriage of the two. Emotionalism has been so pimped and abused that anytime emotion is expressed in a worship setting in a conservative church, it’s looked down upon. That’s a very sad thing. I’ve been in pentecostal / charismatic churches where people have been running around the church, screaming at the top of their lungs… I’ve been hit in the back of my head before by a woman sitting behind me who ‘caught the spirit’. I believe that God is a God of order and not confusion, so I think those acts have cast a bad light on true heartfelt appreciation of the Lord.

Thoughts ?

This is brief but....

There isn't anything wrong with lifting your hands to praise the Lord. The only thing you have to remember(which you have pointed out) is that it's not how you worship but rather your heart toward God.

Do you set apart God's name as Holy? Do you fear God? Do you see God as a graceful God always pour His mercies upon you, a sinner? Do you see God as your daily substance? Do you worship the Triune Godhead as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

The church today has lost sight of a Holy God. There is no fear but rather "silly talk" and "lip service". Your heart, mind and soul, that is changed by the scriptures, will come forth in your worship toward God. The depth you have with God, the depth you will have with your worship. You can't seperate the two. Your relationship is worship to God.

 

[IanWatson]

I was talking to my friend Brandon about the disconnect between sound doctrine and worship. In most PCA churches, the teaching is on point, but the worship is ‘dry’. By ‘dry’, I mean there is no lifting of hands, no moving, just standing there holding your hymn book and singing along with everyone. At the charismatic churches, the teaching is not always on point, but the worship is. Hands are raised, knees are bent. Personally, I am a ‘lift hands’ type of girl when singing, praying, and worshipping. I kneel and sometimes tears are shed, but if I were to do that at my current church (a PCA), I’d be looked at as if I just grew an arm out of my forehead. Where is the ‘happy medium’ ? One of the many things I admire about Epiphany Fellowship (in Philly) is that there is a beautiful merge of the two - doctrinally sound teaching and heartfelt worship. I’d love to be able to be in church with my hands raised while singing hymns without being looked at in an odd fashion. In this area, I think the church lacks… no proper marriage of the two. Emotionalism has been so pimped and abused that anytime emotion is expressed in a worship setting in a conservative church, it’s looked down upon. That’s a very sad thing. I’ve been in pentecostal / charismatic churches where people have been running around the church, screaming at the top of their lungs… I’ve been hit in the back of my head before by a woman sitting behind me who ‘caught the spirit’. I believe that God is a God of order and not confusion, so I think those acts have cast a bad light on true heartfelt appreciation of the Lord.

Thoughts ?

I would have to say that in many churches today people just raise their hands for show and to impress others. I personally have a very biased opinion toward this topic. I have grown up around southern Baptists churches that were backward in many of their beliefs. I would see many people that i knew were not christians raising their hands, crying, and carrying on, and i knew they didnt mean it. The next weekend they would go out and party. So i think one needs to be very careful about this.

In my church services, usually, not a hand will be put in the air, and Im really thankful for that. I have seen the most heart-fealt worship and praise in my church than any other "hand-raising" services i have been to. It has been very rare, in my case, to see a service of people who raise their hands and are "filled with the spirit" that are really true and are not just to impress.

 

[G.Wetmore]

hand raising has biblical precedent...baton twirling does not..


This is not a debate of order versus disorder.

We all agree there should be order in the church.

It is the degree of order that we are talking about.

An enforced extra-biblical level of austerity may not be the biblical norm for everone even if we prefer this ourselves.

so what are you saying, I can't twirl a baton? Why are you taking your cultural norms and pawning them off on me? What if baton twirling really expresses my emotion? Are you trying to stifle me with your euro-indonesian reservedness?

If you are going to say that we have the right to outwardly express our emotion in worship, why not in baton twirling. I know it seems absurd, but I'm sure there is some crazy charismatic out there (probably reading this thread http://www.puritanboard.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif) that really has a hankering for baton twirling. And what if he doesn't think it's disorderly? And don't just say that there is biblical warrant for handraising, because there is not in the way being discussed here.

The idea of Biblical handraising had nothing to do with an emotional outlet. I am sure that the people praying had emotions, but that isn't why they were told to raise their hands. They were told to lift HOLY hands in prayer. This meant they were supposed to lift up and present their hands to God, hands that had been set apart for him. We work with our hands (at least most did in the ancient world, today not as much, but that is the imagery). Men are called by God to excercise Godly dominion in the world. They are then called to present their hands to God, which have been set aside for this task. It is a theological statement, not an emotional outlet.

 

[Pilgrim]

Most of this comes down to taste, custom and cultural tradition. A Scotsman is not going to worship like an Indonesian or African. Any appeal to an exclusively "Reformed" posture of worship is mere culture being mistaken for Gospel.

The Reformed are often guilty of taking a short splice of church history and trying to make it normative for Christians of all ages as far as external mannerism. The Puritans were childen of their culture and day also. Much of what they did externally was not Christian merely but very European and British, to include the tight lipped un-emotionalism of many.


I see lots of emotion in Scripture.

My Indonesian friends often raise their hands for worship (lifting up holy hands). Those from Muslim backgrounds pray with extended hands palm up as in their formerly Muslim ways. They also look up at the heavens instead of down at the dirt when they pray...which, really, makes more sense. Why do we look down or fold our hands palms together. WHy not lay prostrate on the floor or bow our knee to the Father (I think we do not kneel for prayer because the early Reformers were anti-Catholic and did not even want to appear as a kneeling Catholic).

I have seen a 19th century Covenanter article that asserted that the practice of praying while seated was one of C.G. Finney's "new measures" that at the time of writing were supplanting standing or kneeling in prayer.

 

[Pilgrim]

We have pews outside of church. We just don't call them pews. The're called park benches....

They are called benches in the courtroom too....

 

[KMK]

I would have to say that in many churches today people just raise their hands for show and to impress others. I personally have a very biased opinion toward this topic. I have grown up around southern Baptists churches that were backward in many of their beliefs. I would see many people that i knew were not christians raising their hands, crying, and carrying on, and i knew they didnt mean it. The next weekend they would go out and party. So i think one needs to be very careful about this.

In my church services, usually, not a hand will be put in the air, and Im really thankful for that. I have seen the most heart-fealt worship and praise in my church than any other "hand-raising" services i have been to. It has been very rare, in my case, to see a service of people who raise their hands and are "filled with the spirit" that are really true and are not just to impress.

OK. What's up with all the Texarkana folks? Is Josh trying to stage a coup or something?

 

[G.Wetmore]

Gabriel:

Funny, ....... twirl your baton for the Lord brother! JUst maybe not in the gathered assembly.

Incidentally many beleivers here pray with hands extended. It is not due to emotional rapturous feelings, but often local custom. The Bible does say LIFT holy hands in prayer.

No mention of baton swirling in Scripture occurs, however.

You are not dealing with the whole question of the meaning of lifting up holy hands. How does the Biblical concept of lifting up holy hands in prayer support individualistic and outward emotional expression in corporate worship/singing.


By the way, . . . . . what is baton twirling

 

[Pilgrim]

Calvin and the Worship of God by Robert Godfrey might be helpful to provide some background on Reformed worship and its patristic roots.