Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Trevor,
I to do not want this thread to be hi-jacked into a exclusive psalmody issue either even though I hold to such a view. But I disagree with you on that music (Melody, and Sound) is cultural in the church... It is my earnest belief that culture in no way speaks to us in the church, and I also earnestly belief it should only play the smallest part in Christian lives outside the church i.e Music outside of the Church and RPW.. I also do not believe music to be amoral. I have personally seen the destructiviness of so called CCM music in the lives of people, even among my own family. We should transform culture by the power of the gospel not the culture transforms us every few generations. Also scripture speaks of not conforming the World, and who ever loves the world the love of the father is not in him... Also, Be ye Seperate.
As for music (Melody and sound) in the church, I believe it should transcend culture... Be Majestic and Lofty in the words of John Calvin. Music that has no cultural connection and will not fade in a generation. It should be simple and fit the contend and mood of the lyrics (in my case the Psalms), If the words are somber then the music should sound somber... Culture is in the grasp of Satan.... I will fight for no culture in the church. And in the Words of Martin Luther with "No Compromise."
I will avoid the Psalms, Hymns and Songs since that would snowball into EP. But you are quoted saying "The OT worship had elaborate singers didn't they."
Old testament worship with it's elaborate singers and the instruments that was used for all commanded by God to David in explict detail.... To use such passages for New testament worship to add choirs, or any number of instruments is pulling the Old testament passage out of context... The number of Instruments and the exact instruments and how they were made was completely commanded by God.
I might also add that all of that choirs and instruments were Temple worship and has been done away with with the New Covenant.
If God ordained the alittliest issue in the Old testament right down to clothing, carpets, tapestry, altars, etc he commands them under the RPW... Maybe he still does besides elements by the light of nature and common sense... sort of...
As for the Regulative Principle of Worship... I have come to the understanding that the name is miss leading at best and have caused too many problems... I call for the dropping of the word Principle and will no longer use it.. I prefer the Term "Regulative Worship"......
Michael
I to do not want this thread to be hi-jacked into a exclusive psalmody issue either even though I hold to such a view. But I disagree with you on that music (Melody, and Sound) is cultural in the church... It is my earnest belief that culture in no way speaks to us in the church, and I also earnestly belief it should only play the smallest part in Christian lives outside the church i.e Music outside of the Church and RPW.. I also do not believe music to be amoral. I have personally seen the destructiviness of so called CCM music in the lives of people, even among my own family. We should transform culture by the power of the gospel not the culture transforms us every few generations. Also scripture speaks of not conforming the World, and who ever loves the world the love of the father is not in him... Also, Be ye Seperate.
As for music (Melody and sound) in the church, I believe it should transcend culture... Be Majestic and Lofty in the words of John Calvin. Music that has no cultural connection and will not fade in a generation. It should be simple and fit the contend and mood of the lyrics (in my case the Psalms), If the words are somber then the music should sound somber... Culture is in the grasp of Satan.... I will fight for no culture in the church. And in the Words of Martin Luther with "No Compromise."
I will avoid the Psalms, Hymns and Songs since that would snowball into EP. But you are quoted saying "The OT worship had elaborate singers didn't they."
Old testament worship with it's elaborate singers and the instruments that was used for all commanded by God to David in explict detail.... To use such passages for New testament worship to add choirs, or any number of instruments is pulling the Old testament passage out of context... The number of Instruments and the exact instruments and how they were made was completely commanded by God.
I might also add that all of that choirs and instruments were Temple worship and has been done away with with the New Covenant.
If God ordained the alittliest issue in the Old testament right down to clothing, carpets, tapestry, altars, etc he commands them under the RPW... Maybe he still does besides elements by the light of nature and common sense... sort of...
As for the Regulative Principle of Worship... I have come to the understanding that the name is miss leading at best and have caused too many problems... I call for the dropping of the word Principle and will no longer use it.. I prefer the Term "Regulative Worship"......
Michael
Rich:
I think we fundamentally agree then on the main issue. We are just stressing those points of disagreement it seems.
And yes, I agree we should not export our cultural forms and mistake them for Gospel whether we export Reformed baggage or Pentescostal baage...it is all still baggage. I am sure your baptist church - if Southern Baptist - might be a good example of exporting the latest program and calling it missions work or evangelism.
I don't see any "gross reductions." This issue is about a whole string of worship related issues, from postures in prayer, music, and other external forms of worship. I gave my summary statement and I stick by it against those who would desire to make normative statements for all churches in the world and for all communities that "worship should look like this or that". We should give guidelines and principles and allow for permittable leeways within practice.
You keep mentioning the adjective "simple" And others keep mentioning the adjective "austere". These adjectives are very culturally defined are they not? Give me a Scriptural command for simplicity or austerity? I do see commands for "orderliness" and for worship "in Spirit and in truth"...
And is more simple or austere neccessarily more Biblical? Or is this too a preference? The OT worship had elaborate singers didn't they. And the NT speaks of songs, hymns and spiritual songs (please EPers..this is not an EP thread, don't hijack it). If we assume that songs are permitted, then what is simple is defined by the host culture.
About the church in the field: I am not sure that they are "comfortable" with it, but it is a way of gathering without raising undue attention or opposition from those who would oppose the work. It is the best beginning situation for a new work I guess and the doors opened in such a way as to allow this, so the local guys are running with it... Go to www.indonesiamatters.com and you can track the latest chrch closings/burnings and can see the practical benefits of new believers meeting in such a way at first.
Rich, I will quote you and give you a hearty amen:
I hope you understand my desire here that all men be brought near the Cross of Christ and that all of men's preferences be removed as obstacles. Certainly I don't believe an arrogant outsider should come in and start turning over tables and demanding that everybody get simple in worship. I want it to be done with wisdom. But even in a small Japanese Church where everybody is generally happy, my concern would be for we who worship together would be willing to forego some preferences for forms to allow someone who is new among us to feel comfortable and not create a barrier to his attendance. That's all I'm saying.
I cannot improve on anything that you have said in that quote above! Now that quote above is music to my ears (and not the Marantha variety either!).