multiracial churches

[Notthemama1984]

What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?

December 19, 2008 ~ Interracial Churches | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly Video

 

[Andres]

I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?

 

[MarieP]

What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?

December 19, 2008 ~ Interracial Churches | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly Video

Thanks for posting that!

My

First, God adds to the church whom He wills. And I sometimes wonder if a church is actually more diverse than they think- are not all the nations in Europe different...nations, although they are all white? Plus, shouldn't the makeup of a church naturally reflect the area in which it meets? If a town is predominantly white, then so are the churches. If a church is in, say, the west end of my city, it would naturally be black.

That being said, you also have to ask why there are black churches and white churches in areas where it is unnatural. I would agree with the idea that it is indeed a gospel issue. If there is a place that should not be divided by race or class, it is the church.

I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.

we have:
92.4% white (various- Italian, German, Dutch, English, Slovak)
5.3%- Hispanic
2.3%- black (including one of my pastors- that makes 20% of my pastors! when one of them leaves for Zambia, then it will be 25%!)

The racial makeup of my church's neighborhood is:

* White Non-Hispanic (85.5%)
* Black (8.7%)- Louisville as a whole is 33%
* Hispanic (2.5%)- Louisville as a whole is 1.9%
* Two or more races (1.5%)
* Other race (1.1%)
* Asian Indian (0.8%)
* American Indian (0.6%)

taken from City-Data

Well, my pastor has some American Indian blood in him too, as well as Italian. So that makes us a little more diverse. I guess.

Maybe we shouldn't so much talk about the church not being diverse as much as why the second largest group of ethnicities (plural because not all black people have ancestors from the same nation) are not better represented among us?

By the way, I forget the figures, but in a matter of years, at the rate that the faith in growing in Africa and Asia, whites will be the minority group in Christendom!

 

[Reformed Thomist]

Personally, I have never worshipped in a church that wasn't multiracial (this includes various suburban and inner-city Romanist parishes, an SBC church plant, a PCA church plant, an old-school Reformed Baptist church, and an evangelical Anglican parish). But then, multiraciality is an unavoidable reality in the Greater Toronto Area... although I imagine some of the old mainline churches, in certain neighborhoods, to be noticeably white.

 

[Edward]

Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American?

The easy answer to that is 'yes'. I visited one PCA church south of Atlanta a few years ago where my father and I were the only white faces in the room. Inform and Transform| Redemption Fellowship

I think Redeemer in Jackson would meet the criteria, but it is more racially mixed. I believe there are also churches in Baltimore, Birmingham, and Chattanooga that have large Black memberships.

And, of course, there are multiple ethnic Korean presbyteries in the PCA, scattered ethnic Mexican congregations, and a sprinkling of other ethnic groups.

There are at least two Black PCA teaching elders in the North Texas Presbytery. Both are at predominately white churches.

 

[Andres]

Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American?

The easy answer to that is 'yes'. I visited one PCA church south of Atlanta a few years ago where my father and I were the only white faces in the room. Inform and Transform| Redemption Fellowship

I think Redeemer in Jackson would meet the criteria, but it is more racially mixed. I believe there are also churches in Baltimore, Birmingham, and Chattanooga that have large Black memberships.

And, of course, there are multiple ethnic Korean presbyteries in the PCA, scattered ethnic Mexican congregations, and a sprinkling of other ethnic groups.

There are at least two Black PCA teaching elders in the North Texas Presbytery. Both are at predominately white churches.

thanks Edward. I guess I just need to get out more!
On a serious note, I am happy to hear this and fully expected that to be the case, just had never experienced it myself.

 

[Jack K]

Note: I didn't watch the video due to other things going on.

That said, I think a church that is multiracial is great. Where I have a problem is when a church's drive/goal is to be multiracial (or any other singular minded drive). A church's goal should be to be a true church, and let God do the growing. Preach the gospel. Love the lost. Take care of the widows and orphans. Invite your friends. Invite your not-so-much friends. Let the Lord do the building and the chips fall where they may.

Don't single out a specific ethnicity...especially at the expense of others.

Just my

I would humbly suggest we ought to be more proactive than this. I really do appreciate that we don't want to become like those churches that lose the gospel in a sell-out to be socially "correct." But a reading of Acts suggests to me that being multi-racial is right up there with loving the lost, caring for widows, etc. The leveling of class, ethnic and racial distinctives is a foundational part of the church's witness to the gospel. Christ died for all men. We share a grace that ought to break down barriers.

In Acts 2, the Holy Spirit formed the first church. A key part of that account is the multi-racial nature of the Spirit's work; 15 different racial/ethnic groups listed, one by one, by name! This mingling of classes and races was considered scandalous in those early days and brought the church great criticism. Today, the church in my neck of the woods is far more likely to be accused of being exclusive and racist. How have we fallen this far?

 

[kvanlaan]

God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way...

Our church is mostly Dutch farmers and tradesmen (read: not just white, also blond). When my wife talks to other moms in nursery, some talk about how 'dark' their children are because of their brown hair and not-quite-lily-white skin. That being said, there has been not a racist word to any of our boys. To me, that's an incredible work of grace. How many black dairy farmers do you know? Black pig farmers? I asked my cousin the first question and he said that in all his years, he'd never even met one. Not that they would b predisposed to be racist, but it is a new situation for them, and it has been interesting to see that no-one has really even blinked in this rural, conservative church.

That is all to say - it doesn't matter a bit. Witness to all you meet. Don't go out of your way to witness to other ethnicities to bring 'people of color' into the congregation.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Note: I didn't watch the video due to other things going on.

That said, I think a church that is multiracial is great. Where I have a problem is when a church's drive/goal is to be multiracial (or any other singular minded drive). A church's goal should be to be a true church, and let God do the growing. Preach the gospel. Love the lost. Take care of the widows and orphans. Invite your friends. Invite your not-so-much friends. Let the Lord do the building and the chips fall where they may.

Don't single out a specific ethnicity...especially at the expense of others.

Just my

I understand what you are saying and agree. We should not be singling out a specific ethnic group. Dr. Woo (who happens to be my NT Professor) talks about actively evangelizing those from "the other side of the tracks." When we are putting forth an effort to do this, we are discarding our own prejudices. It is much easier to talk to people who look like me, act like me, and have same hobbies as me. If you let the "chips fall where they may," you run the risk of creating a church that looks like you.

It is true that God builds his church, but it is also true that the visible church varies in terms of purity through the ages. Thus however we want to label the phenomenon, our sin prevents the church from being perfect. This means we cannot just go through life thinking God will figure it all out and make it work.

I honestly believe if we refuse or even reluctantly minister to an ethnic group, we are sinning. I would also say that if we are creating an atmosphere where an ethnic group cannot worship with us, we are also sinning.

I am not advocating selling out to culture and making a service culturally relevant with jeans, t shirts, and rock bands. So don't think that. I am thinking of churches that I have grown up in that were not overtly racist, but viewed the "black church" down the street as outsiders. Not substandard to their church, just different. This difference was considered just a fact that could not be avoided. They liked things their way and we liked ours a different way. It is the way it always has been and the way it always will be. Their was no attempt to bridge the racial gap. This is what I mean about an atmosphere where they cannot worship. Walking into our church, they would immediately know that they were outsiders. They were not treated the same. They were not treated as brothers and sisters.

So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group. As true as this may be, it can unfortunately become an excuse to avoid interacting with other ethnic groups.

Just food for thought.

 

[Andres]

Boliver, you stated what I wanted to much, much better than I could have. Thank you for your input.

 

[Notthemama1984]

So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group.

I agree, and never said we should "not reach out to any one ethnic group." You reach out to all wherever you are. Otherwise, it's an insult to all the "majority" people when you spend your time specializing in the "minority." It's a completely different thing if your local demographic is primarily this ethnicity or that. Nonetheless, you'd reach out to all and any, not just some and one.

I know you did not say that we should only reach out to one group. If it came off that way, I apologize. Not my intentions.

In Dr. Woo's case, his church is in Alief part of Houston. It is basically the ghetto. 30% of the Houston murders happen in that district. In the school district 70 different languages are represented as the students' primary language. He is in an extremely diverse area, but when he started his pastorate the church was overwhelmingly white. The church did not represent the ethnic diversity that was in walking distance of the church. It was his desire to fix this problem. This meant a long hard struggle dealing with racism.

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

I would add that God is not preventing. The blame falls squarely on the church.

 

[boschertjd18]

Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.

 

[Grillsy]

So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group.

I agree, and never said we should "not reach out to any one ethnic group." You reach out to all wherever you are. Otherwise, it's an insult to all the "majority" people when you spend your time specializing in the "minority." It's a completely different thing if your local demographic is primarily this ethnicity or that. Nonetheless, you'd reach out to all and any, not just some and one.

I know you did not say that we should only reach out to one group. If it came off that way, I apologize. Not my intentions.

In Dr. Woo's case, his church is in Alief part of Houston. It is basically the ghetto. 30% of the Houston murders happen in that district. In the school district 70 different languages are represented as the students' primary language. He is in an extremely diverse area, but when he started his pastorate the church was overwhelmingly white. The church did not represent the ethnic diversity that was in walking distance of the church. It was his desire to fix this problem. This meant a long hard struggle dealing with racism.

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

I would add that God is not preventing. The blame falls squarely on the church.

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

 

[Andres]

I agree, and never said we should "not reach out to any one ethnic group." You reach out to all wherever you are. Otherwise, it's an insult to all the "majority" people when you spend your time specializing in the "minority." It's a completely different thing if your local demographic is primarily this ethnicity or that. Nonetheless, you'd reach out to all and any, not just some and one.

I know you did not say that we should only reach out to one group. If it came off that way, I apologize. Not my intentions.

In Dr. Woo's case, his church is in Alief part of Houston. It is basically the ghetto. 30% of the Houston murders happen in that district. In the school district 70 different languages are represented as the students' primary language. He is in an extremely diverse area, but when he started his pastorate the church was overwhelmingly white. The church did not represent the ethnic diversity that was in walking distance of the church. It was his desire to fix this problem. This meant a long hard struggle dealing with racism.

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

I would add that God is not preventing. The blame falls squarely on the church.

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

Unless a church is in a town with 90% of one race, then yes, I do see a problem if a church is only 90% of one race. My reason is because this is not indicative of the universal church, so why should it be so in local congregations?
As for the whole argument of location having alot to do with it, I think that is a silly excuse. Since when do we all attend the church that is nearest our house?

 

[boschertjd18]

Andres - I fail to understand why race is even important. Can you define how you're using the term?

 

[Grillsy]

I know you did not say that we should only reach out to one group. If it came off that way, I apologize. Not my intentions.

In Dr. Woo's case, his church is in Alief part of Houston. It is basically the ghetto. 30% of the Houston murders happen in that district. In the school district 70 different languages are represented as the students' primary language. He is in an extremely diverse area, but when he started his pastorate the church was overwhelmingly white. The church did not represent the ethnic diversity that was in walking distance of the church. It was his desire to fix this problem. This meant a long hard struggle dealing with racism.

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

I would add that God is not preventing. The blame falls squarely on the church.

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

Unless a church is in a town with 90% of one race, then yes, I do see a problem if a church is only 90% of one race. My reason is because this is not indicative of the universal church, so why should it be so in local congregations?
As for the whole argument of location having alot to do with it, I think that is a silly excuse. Since when do we all attend the church that is nearest our house?

Okay take a place like eastern Kentucky where the location in 98% white, that is what I am talking about.

Perhaps churches in Zimbabwe should have at least 40% of white people? That is not likely. Because there just aren't that many whites there.

Or when I lived in Panama and I was the only white guy in any of the churches I attended. Should I lecture them on racial diversity? NO because the predominate area was Hispanic? With a small black and Chinese population!

So yes location DOES have a lot to do with it.

Of course it is not indicative of the universal church because the universal church stretches far beyond any borders, it has none, it is universal!

Also with regards to the race mixture of the universal church we really have no idea what it will be. So there really is no need to comment on it.

Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.

 

[Kevin]

Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.

So it's the GOVERNMENTs fault that all my kids look like me. And here I was thinking that it was DNA. I am going to log off now so I can start rejecting me some notions.

 

[boschertjd18]

Race is simply a social construct used by government and the private sector for data collection and analysis purposes. In my opinion, Christians ought to reject the commonly held notion of race altogether.

So it's the GOVERNMENTs fault that all my kids look like me. And here I was thinking that it was DNA. I am going to log off now so I can start rejecting me some notions.

Race is often associated with words such as "White", "African-American", "Asian-American". Those words mean nothing. All physical characteristics are becoming increasingly blurred in our shrinking global culture. Imagine that a man from Kenya and a woman from Ireland get married and have children in the US. What and how do you label the "race" of these children? "Race" and DNA have nothing to do with one another...

 

[Edward]

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

Yes, it's called worship style. How many Black churches have you visited?

 

[Montanablue]

So I think we have to be careful when we talk about letting God build the church and not reaching out to any one specific ethnic group.

I agree, and never said we should "not reach out to any one ethnic group." You reach out to all wherever you are. Otherwise, it's an insult to all the "majority" people when you spend your time specializing in the "minority." It's a completely different thing if your local demographic is primarily this ethnicity or that. Nonetheless, you'd reach out to all and any, not just some and one.

A problem I have seen (and one that I think we often miss), is that we often target whites/Caucasians without really realizing we're doing so. (Note: When I say "we" I'm speaking broadly of Anglo-American Christians - but I realize that I'm painting with a broad brush, so please don't think I'm speaking of anyone specifically). I think this is a natural thing to do - we just feel more comfortable reaching out to people that we perceive to be similar to ourselves. Nevertheless, I think we need to be sure that when we make our efforts that we're not just reaching out to people "like us."

I am really pleased to hear about some of these multi-ethnic congregations in the PCA. That's really encouraging. I

 

[Andres]

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

Unless a church is in a town with 90% of one race, then yes, I do see a problem if a church is only 90% of one race. My reason is because this is not indicative of the universal church, so why should it be so in local congregations?
As for the whole argument of location having alot to do with it, I think that is a silly excuse. Since when do we all attend the church that is nearest our house?

Okay take a place like eastern Kentucky where the location in 98% white, that is what I am talking about.

Perhaps churches in Zimbabwe should have at least 40% of white people? That is not likely. Because there just aren't that many whites there.

Or when I lived in Panama and I was the only white guy in any of the churches I attended. Should I lecture them on racial diversity? NO because the predominate area was Hispanic? With a small black and Chinese population!

So yes location DOES have a lot to do with it.

I apologize for taking your question out of context, becuase up until this point we were only talking about churches in the US (or I assumed we were). You are correct about your comments about a church in Zimbabwe or Panama, but that is why I specifically prefaced my comments that if a church is in a town/city/area where there is more than 90% of one race, then of course it would be unreasonable to expect a church to be completely blended evenly. However, I think this is not the norm in the more diverse US, although I realize there are still some places that are like that.

Also with regards to the race mixture of the universal church we really have no idea what it will be. So there really is no need to comment on it.

I disagree! Rev 5:9,10 states, "And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.

I agree that in a perfect world, race would not be an issue, but we are far from a perfect world. In fact, I think this is precisely the problem. So many times when confronted with racial issues too many people just want to ignore them and hope they will go away, but the fact of the matter is, they won't.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

The location excuse is extremely lacking. Many on this board (myself included) travel a great distance every Sunday to attend a Reformed church. Are you to tell me that 90% of people within a one hour radius of the church is of one ethnic group? It is true that many are not willing to drive an hour, but most would drive ten to fifteen minutes. Very few churches are only one ethnic race or overwhelmingly of one race for a fifteen minute driving radius from the church.

There is not a quota that is needed in each church to show that it is diverse enough. I am not saying that at all, but the fact that there is only one black minister and one multiracial church church in my presbytery (which covers the states of TX, LA, AR, IL, MS, AL, and TN) points to a huge problem. Are we to say that only white people live in these states? The EPC is not unique here either. If they were Anthony Carter would not have to write a book On Being Reformed and Black. Think about it. We do not write reformed books that are geared towards white people. Why? because they are being witnessed to and ministered to. Brother Carter on the other hand has to write this book to show the black community that Reformed Theology is for them just as it is for the white community. Why? because the black community is not being witnessed to or ministered to.

Acts six shows us that the church cannot be blind to race. One group of widows was receiving special treatment over another. This was a problem and the apostles got together to correct this. If statistics show that our churches are so ethnically lopsided (and I would add in Presbyterian circles we don't even have black churches and white churches. Minus a few, they are all white churches sprinkled with the token black family), we should take a hard look at ourselves and ask why. Is it because of our community? Is our community that lopsided ethnically? Or is it a sin problem. Do our mouths preach racial equality, but our actions say otherwise? It is something that we have to look at.

 

[JBaldwin]

Also you fail to answer anyone's questions (including mine) as to why we are even focused on race if it is supposed to be a non-issue in the Church.

While race should be a non-issue in the church, the church should at least to some extent reflect the community where it is located.

I think within reformed churches, there is a tendancy to ignore acceptable cultural differences, i.e. style of music and worship. We have noticed in our little church which is located in the heart of a small rural/mountain community, that the local folks respond better to styles of singing that are more like what they are used to hearing. That can happen without compromising content (which is usually what happens).

 

[Andres]

Race is often associated with words such as "White", "African-American", "Asian-American". Those words mean nothing. All physical characteristics are becoming increasingly blurred in our shrinking global culture. Imagine that a man from Kenya and a woman from Ireland get married and have children in the US. What and how do you label the "race" of these children? "Race" and DNA have nothing to do with one another...

You seem to be arguing from a technical aspect only. I will freely admit that I have no clue the backgrounds of the cultures/ancestry of the people at my church (nor do I care) but what I do know is that when I walk in on Sunday morning and everyone has blond hair,blue eyes, and fair skin and I walk in with black hair, brown eyes, and brown skin, I stand out.

 

[Notthemama1984]

The church can talk until it is blue in the face that they want to be multiracial, but the fact that 90% of all churches have a 90% majority of one ethnic race shows that something is preventing the church from being multiracial.

Yes, it's called worship style. How many Black churches have you visited?

Style is a cop out answer. If we believe that Scripture dictates our worship (the RPW), then style does not come into the equation. If we are willing to educate our white brothers on the RPW and how it plays out, then what is preventing us from doing the same to our black brothers?

Are they too ignorant to understand? Are they too mule headed to recognize its validity? Seriously if style is holding them back, then you are saying that blacks are theologically deficient. If true, then why isn't the Reformed community correcting this deficiency? (Just to be clear, I do not think our black brothers are too ignorant or the like. Just making a point that style is not a valid argument for having ethnically lopsided churches)

As to your question, I have visited several black churches. Was invited to preach in one, but schedules prevented it.

 

[Grillsy]

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

The location excuse is extremely lacking. Many on this board (myself included) travel a great distance every Sunday to attend a Reformed church. Are you to tell me that 90% of people within a one hour radius of the church is of one ethnic group? It is true that many are not willing to drive an hour, but most would drive ten to fifteen minutes. Very few churches are only one ethnic race or overwhelmingly of one race for a fifteen minute driving radius from the church.

There is not a quota that is needed in each church to show that it is diverse enough. I am not saying that at all, but the fact that there is only one black minister and one multiracial church church in my presbytery (which covers the states of TX, LA, AR, IL, MS, AL, and TN) points to a huge problem. Are we to say that only white people live in these states? The EPC is not unique here either. If they were Anthony Carter would not have to write a book On Being Reformed and Black. Think about it. We do not write reformed books that are geared towards white people. Why? because they are being witnessed to and ministered to. Brother Carter on the other hand has to write this book to show the black community that Reformed Theology is for them just as it is for the white community. Why? because the black community is not being witnessed to or ministered to.

Acts six shows us that the church cannot be blind to race. One group of widows was receiving special treatment over another. This was a problem and the apostles got together to correct this. If statistics show that our churches are so ethnically lopsided (and I would add in Presbyterian circles we don't even have black churches and white churches. Minus a few, they are all white churches sprinkled with the token black family), we should take a hard look at ourselves and ask why. Is it because of our community? Is our community that lopsided ethnically? Or is it a sin problem. Do our mouths preach racial equality, but our actions say otherwise? It is something that we have to look at.

It is not lacking and I drive an hour to my OPC congregation. And I can honestly tell you that YES one ethnic group is a HUGE minority both where I am from and where I drive to. I can honestly tell you that.

I can also say that they do not discriminate at all even if the congregation is largely white. My wife is Hispanic she is there and our ministerial candidates wife is Syrian. That makes up our diversity but that doesn't not mean that our church is spending too little time reaching out to certain ethnic groups (I realize that you are not accusing us of doing).

I'm talking about large geographic areas as a whole. The census statistics speak for themselves. All I am trying to say is that sometimes racial expectations are not fair to certain areas.

____________

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.

 

[Jack K]

Key phrase: the Spirit's work, which I would never deny. But an all out effort to target certain groups is, In my humble opinion, wrong. Target all and any.

That's right, of course. I would just add that in America today (and in many other times and places) to effectively target all and any we will probably have to make a particular effort to reach out to those different from us. We should do this without compromise, but nevertheless with much humility and a teachable attitude.

 

[Andres]

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.

Brother, how the exact numbers will be divided is not important, but if you or anyone else will try to convince me that heaven is going to be filled with predominantly any one race, then I have a huge problem with that. The point is not in specific percentages, the point is in diversity. I full admit that earlier I did bring up some percentages but I was just trying to make that point that if a congregation has 20 familes that are all the same race and then one family that is another, they would be foolish to say, "oh we're diverse cuz we have this one family!"

 

[Notthemama1984]

Is it a problem that a church b 90% of one race? I mean seriously location has a lot to do with that sort of thing...also if we as Christians should be past race why are we even looking at it to begin with?

The church should seek to spread the Gospel to all. There is no affirmative action quota with regards to the church.

The location excuse is extremely lacking. Many on this board (myself included) travel a great distance every Sunday to attend a Reformed church. Are you to tell me that 90% of people within a one hour radius of the church is of one ethnic group? It is true that many are not willing to drive an hour, but most would drive ten to fifteen minutes. Very few churches are only one ethnic race or overwhelmingly of one race for a fifteen minute driving radius from the church.

There is not a quota that is needed in each church to show that it is diverse enough. I am not saying that at all, but the fact that there is only one black minister and one multiracial church church in my presbytery (which covers the states of TX, LA, AR, IL, MS, AL, and TN) points to a huge problem. Are we to say that only white people live in these states? The EPC is not unique here either. If they were Anthony Carter would not have to write a book On Being Reformed and Black. Think about it. We do not write reformed books that are geared towards white people. Why? because they are being witnessed to and ministered to. Brother Carter on the other hand has to write this book to show the black community that Reformed Theology is for them just as it is for the white community. Why? because the black community is not being witnessed to or ministered to.

Acts six shows us that the church cannot be blind to race. One group of widows was receiving special treatment over another. This was a problem and the apostles got together to correct this. If statistics show that our churches are so ethnically lopsided (and I would add in Presbyterian circles we don't even have black churches and white churches. Minus a few, they are all white churches sprinkled with the token black family), we should take a hard look at ourselves and ask why. Is it because of our community? Is our community that lopsided ethnically? Or is it a sin problem. Do our mouths preach racial equality, but our actions say otherwise? It is something that we have to look at.

It is not lacking and I drive an hour to my OPC congregation.

I'm talking about large geographic areas as a whole. The census statistics speak for themselves. All I am trying to say is that sometimes racial expectations are not fair to certain areas.

____________

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.

It is lacking, census statistics point to fewer and fewer places that are 90% of one ethnic group. Are their places? Sure. But not 90% of places. The fact that the percent of one sided churches is so high points to the problem. If the number was less, even 70%, the argument of location and ethnic separation would be more valid.

Every year whites are becoming less and less of the majority. I read somewhere that by 2050 or something that the USA will no longer be a white majority. Although these facts are true, this is not showing up in our churches. Our churches are not becoming more and more diverse.

 

[Kevin]

Silliest. Thread. Ever.

This entire discussion is SO SWPL ( Stuff White People Like )

Get over yourself. Of course races exist, God after all does take credit for creating them.

Of course the gospel is for all people.

Of course Presbyterian churches are full of white people. It is called "the covenant" for a reason people. Why anyone would pretend to be surprised that a church founded by Scots, would be full of their descendants, is beyond me.

Get over youself & preach the gospel to whomever you meet. Why would you worry if suburban churches are full of suburbanites? Do you also worry that Korean churches are full of Koreans?