multiracial churches

[newcreature]

God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way...

Our church is mostly Dutch farmers and tradesmen (read: not just white, also blond). When my wife talks to other moms in nursery, some talk about how 'dark' their children are because of their brown hair and not-quite-lily-white skin. That being said, there has been not a racist word to any of our boys. To me, that's an incredible work of grace. How many black dairy farmers do you know? Black pig farmers? I asked my cousin the first question and he said that in all his years, he'd never even met one. Not that they would b predisposed to be racist, but it is a new situation for them, and it has been interesting to see that no-one has really even blinked in this rural, conservative church.

That is all to say - it doesn't matter a bit. Witness to all you meet. Don't go out of your way to witness to other ethnicities to bring 'people of color' into the congregation.

For the record... I believe it is true that the color of the farmer's skin would strongly reflect the demographics of the farming community in which he or she lives. I grew up in a rural/ industrial area of Michigan, where many black men were dairy, pig, produce, and beef farmers. It was nearly as common to see blacks and whites equally represented in farming and industry. The difference that was noticeable, however, was that whites were the predominant face of college degree holders and professionals.

I do, however, agree with the rest of your statement.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.

 

[Kevin]

Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.

Are you complaining that God has kept his word?

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

 

[Notthemama1984]

Silliest. Thread. Ever.

This entire discussion is SO SWPL ( Stuff White People Like )

Get over yourself. Of course races exist, God after all does take credit for creating them.

Of course the gospel is for all people.

Of course Presbyterian churches are full of white people. It is called "the covenant" for a reason people. Why anyone would pretend to be surprised that a church founded by Scots, would be full of their descendants, is beyond me.

Get over youself & preach the gospel to whomever you meet. Why would you worry if suburban churches are full of suburbanites? Do you also worry that Korean churches are full of Koreans?

As the Revelation passage pointed out, it is a covenant full of diverse races and tongues.

It isn't surprising that Presbyterian churches are full of Scottish descendants. It is surprising that after a few hundred years, the church has failed to branch out to other ethnic groups.

 

[Grillsy]

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.

Brother, how the exact numbers will be divided is not important, but if you or anyone else will try to convince me that heaven is going to be filled with predominantly any one race, then I have a huge problem with that. The point is not in specific percentages, the point is in diversity. I full admit that earlier I did bring up some percentages but I was just trying to make that point that if a congregation has 20 familes that are all the same race and then one family that is another, they would be foolish to say, "oh we're diverse cuz we have this one family!"

Andres please don't think that I am saying that it will be predominantly one race. All i'm pointing out is that 1. We don't know and 2. ULTIMATELY it will not matter.

Besides i'm doing my part. My wife is hispanic, our children will be multiracial by default. Maybe that is the solution to all this...:

 

[Notthemama1984]

Looking at statistics from the census bureau, 65% of America is white with the other 35% mostly consisting of Hispanics and Blacks. Do our Reformed churches even remotely look like this? Not even close. I am not even talking about multiracial individual churches. I am talking about multiracial denominations. Our Reformed denominations have some black churches, but not 15% which would coincide with the statistics. Just look at the PB, I can only think of three black people (I do not use the term in some derogatory way. I don't know where they originate from, so I am simply referring to their race) among all the posters here. I am sure there are others that I do not know about, but nowhere near the 15% demographic breakdown. There is currently 1163 members on PB. 15% would be 174ish. We are nowhere near that. Again, I am not saying we need to reach a quota of 174 or anything like that, but using the statistics it should be glaringly obvious that the reformed community is not racially diverse.

Are you complaining that God has kept his word?

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

I am not sure what I am suppose to take from your quote. God is faithful and keeps his covenant. Are you implying that the whole Great Commission thing was only for white people because the Scots kept the covenant?

Sure God is faithful to those that keep it, but that does not mean that once your race has broken the covenant there is never a chance for anyone else of your race to ever come into the covenant again. Come on.

 

[Andres]

And Andres I understand your concern. But I should also point out that the Revelation verses you cited do not give us an idea of just how the racial numbers will be divided. That was all I was trying to say in my comments.

Brother, how the exact numbers will be divided is not important, but if you or anyone else will try to convince me that heaven is going to be filled with predominantly any one race, then I have a huge problem with that. The point is not in specific percentages, the point is in diversity. I full admit that earlier I did bring up some percentages but I was just trying to make that point that if a congregation has 20 familes that are all the same race and then one family that is another, they would be foolish to say, "oh we're diverse cuz we have this one family!"

Andres please don't think that I am saying that it will be predominantly one race. All i'm pointing out is that 1. We don't know and 2. ULTIMATELY it will not matter.

Besides i'm doing my part. My wife is hispanic, our children will be multiracial by default. Maybe that is the solution to all this...:

It's all good brother. And for the record, I remembered that your wife was hispanic from a previous thread! My wife is white, so we are the reverse you!

 

[newcreature]

What are your thoughts on this video? I think we would agree that our worship services might look different, but focusing mostly on the idea of multiracial churches what are your thoughts?

I think this video is media propagation. As Christians, I don't think our priority should be on the race of the person sitting next to us in church. That is racism. We are to love all men, just as Christ came to save all nations. I have attended and been members at "white" churches, "black" churches, and multiracial churches. I have not found that any of the churches I have attended have been more or less Biblical based on the race of the pastor or the majority of the congregation, but rather based on the theology and how true they are to the Bible.

Of course, we should witness and reach out to all nations. But what time do we have to pick and choose who we will and will not worship with whether they be of the same or of a different race. I say go to the nearest church in your neighborhood that is faithful to biblical truths. Then reach out to everyone in your neighborhood, work, local grocery store, and wherever you may go.

God calls who He will, regardless of skin color. I don't think our souls and skin color ever correspond in any way...

Our church is mostly Dutch farmers and tradesmen (read: not just white, also blond). When my wife talks to other moms in nursery, some talk about how 'dark' their children are because of their brown hair and not-quite-lily-white skin. That being said, there has been not a racist word to any of our boys. To me, that's an incredible work of grace. How many black dairy farmers do you know? Black pig farmers? I asked my cousin the first question and he said that in all his years, he'd never even met one. Not that they would b predisposed to be racist, but it is a new situation for them, and it has been interesting to see that no-one has really even blinked in this rural, conservative church.

That is all to say - it doesn't matter a bit. Witness to all you meet. Don't go out of your way to witness to other ethnicities to bring 'people of color' into the congregation.

For the record... I believe it is true that the color of the farmer's skin would strongly reflect the demographics of the farming community in which he or she lives. I grew up in a rural/ industrial area of Michigan, where many black men were dairy, pig, produce, and beef farmers. It was nearly as common to see blacks and whites equally represented in farming and industry. The difference that was noticeable, however, was that whites were the predominant face of college degree holders and professionals.

I do, however, agree with the rest of your statement.

 

[Grillsy]

Brother, how the exact numbers will be divided is not important, but if you or anyone else will try to convince me that heaven is going to be filled with predominantly any one race, then I have a huge problem with that. The point is not in specific percentages, the point is in diversity. I full admit that earlier I did bring up some percentages but I was just trying to make that point that if a congregation has 20 familes that are all the same race and then one family that is another, they would be foolish to say, "oh we're diverse cuz we have this one family!"

Andres please don't think that I am saying that it will be predominantly one race. All i'm pointing out is that 1. We don't know and 2. ULTIMATELY it will not matter.

Besides i'm doing my part. My wife is hispanic, our children will be multiracial by default. Maybe that is the solution to all this...:

It's all good brother. And for the record, I remembered that your wife was hispanic from a previous thread! My wife is white, so we are the reverse you!

LOL. Does that mean we cancel each other out!

 

[Notthemama1984]

How is it media propaganda? We are called to be a unified body. If our churches do not reflect unity but rather segregation, how is this a good thing?

Rosa Parks could have stayed in the back of the bus. The bus went to the same places whether she sat in the back or in the front. The same could go for our churches. If the same theology is being taught at the black church and the white church, why bother going to the other one? It is all the same in the end right? Wrong. Parks chose to sit in the front as a protest because segregation was wrong. It was wrong on the buses and it is even worse in our churches. We may not be forcing other groups to attend other churches, but we sure are not opening our arms to them either. To continue with the bus analogy, we are telling people, "sure you can sit in the front of the bus, if there is a seat available. you have to do the work to get it though." When we should be saying, "Hey why don't you take my seat."

 

[kvanlaan]

A problem I have seen (and one that I think we often miss), is that we often target whites/Caucasians without really realizing we're doing so. (Note: When I say "we" I'm speaking broadly of Anglo-American Christians - but I realize that I'm painting with a broad brush, so please don't think I'm speaking of anyone specifically). I think this is a natural thing to do - we just feel more comfortable reaching out to people that we perceive to be similar to ourselves. Nevertheless, I think we need to be sure that when we make our efforts that we're not just reaching out to people "like us."

I actually find it easier/more comfortable to share the gospel in Chinese. There's something about witnessing in another language that is oddly freeing. Does this mean I should target Hispanics to fight the urge to speak to the Chinese?

For the record... I believe it is true that the color of the farmer's skin would strongly reflect the demographics of the farming community in which he or she lives. I grew up in a rural/ industrial area of Michigan, where many black men were dairy, pig, produce, and beef farmers. It was nearly as common to see blacks and whites equally represented in farming and industry. The difference that was noticeable, however, was that whites were the predominant face of college degree holders and professionals.

In our area there are none. Farming in SW Ontario is pretty white (save for Mexican field hands that are here in the summer - we have some really fun outreach programs that we do with them). The only other non-caucasians that I've seen are Chinese (a few farmers here and there) and Jamaican fruit pickers. It's just the way it is.

 

[DMcFadden]

I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.

Church (425-470 avg. Sunday attn.)
45% Asian
30-35% Hispanic
20-25% Other (white, black, etc.)

Community
45% Asian
35-40% Hispanic
15-20% Other

 

[Notthemama1984]

Dennis your church is a breath of fresh air. It would seem though that this diversity did not just happen by itself or at least happen to the extent that it has. I say this because you have a intercultural minister. Would you agree that Mr. Reyes has helped cultivate the diversity?

 

[DMcFadden]

No. It is mainly the vision of the senior pastor. He was raised as a dirt-poor migrant farm worker in the Central Valley of CA. He is not afraid of cultural differences. Our worship leader is hispanic, two part timers are Chinese (both with seminary degrees), one associate pastor has a Korean wife, we have a hispanic doing ministry to hispanics, and my wife is on staff and she is married to a white trash guy .

Regardless of its defects, it is a model of racial inclusion in an intentional but not PC way. I credit the pastor's courage, patience, and that EdD in leadership that taught him how to be a master of discipling, deploying, and coordinating the gifts of the congregation for outreach and community impact.

Actually, it is so broadly evangelical that it hurts my reforming head. Warren, Blackaby, and dispensational eschatology is not exactly where I'm at theologically .

 

[rpeters]

As someone who has a passion for multicultural churches and a member of a PCA Multicultural church. It is just plain fact that we go to churches where we feel we can relate. Right? Youa re seing a couple things immagrants are moving more to the city and even now to the suburbs and one can estemate in 10 yrs to rural areas. What are the white churches going to do when you have alot of different races in your back door how will you minister to them? The theme of diversity of God's people and promises of God are blantant in scripture. Genesis 12. If we take the great commission seriously we MUST reach out to those who are different than us! To look at the great commission and not see the the diversity in judea, sumaria, and the outer regions with is diversity. So if we seek to live the great commision we will will seek diverse churches. Second, the millions of mixed couples and families how can we minister to them both. I think the key is multicultural churches. This will cause us to get out of our comfortzone, but didn't God do this to Peter with Cornelius,

 

[KaphLamedh]

Well, I don´t see any problem in multiracial churches as far as they are not based on cultural grounds. We have Chinese, African-American, Russian, Caucasian, Finnish, Japanise Swedish in one church in my home town. Greater Grace World Outreach-church is one (and only) of "multiracial church" and I think it works very well. USA is still quite different and much more multiracial country than Finland...

 

[boschertjd18]

I'd be interested in knowing the racial makeup of your all's churches.

25-35 regulars:
80% people of primarily African lineage.
10% people of primarily European lineage. (my family included here)
10% other

I honestly don't even like breaking it down into these categories because I think it's irrelevant.

…Get over yourself. Of course races exist, God after all does take credit for creating them…

Race does not exist and you haven't even defined what that terms means. God scattered people in different regions which created different social norms. Again, race is a socially construed concept.

 

[newcreature]

How is it media propaganda? We are called to be a unified body. If our churches do not reflect unity but rather segregation, how is this a good thing?

Rosa Parks could have stayed in the back of the bus. The bus went to the same places whether she sat in the back or in the front. The same could go for our churches. If the same theology is being taught at the black church and the white church, why bother going to the other one? It is all the same in the end right? Wrong. Parks chose to sit in the front as a protest because segregation was wrong. It was wrong on the buses and it is even worse in our churches. We may not be forcing other groups to attend other churches, but we sure are not opening our arms to them either. To continue with the bus analogy, we are telling people, "sure you can sit in the front of the bus, if there is a seat available. you have to do the work to get it though." When we should be saying, "Hey why don't you take my seat."

I do believe that a church or minister going on TV to do a detailed interview based on the cultural diversity in their congregation is media propaganda. The video was not about theology, but merely diversity.

With that said, you make good points in your Rosa Parks illustration. And I agree, that churches should be diverse. However, I do not think it should be our primary purpose. If we are seeking to make churches multicultural by catering to the cultural preferences of those different from us, then we run the risk of making our churches relative. Our first priority needs to be that we are preaching the gospel and worshipping in a way that holds true to scripture.

I am now in a "white" church. My husband is white, all of the congregation and both pastors are white. My two children and I are the only individuals in the church who are not white. We have recently had some Hispanic visitors, and it is nice to have them there... not because of their color, but because they share in our desire to serve the Lord. But we don't feel slighted because of that. We are in a place where we are being preached the unadulterated word of God. That is so much more important than being in a place where people look like us.

If people don't want to come to church because the church is not diverse, then they are serving their own ungodly motives. The church should NEVER make anyone feel uncomfortable because of their race, gender, age, level of education, or any other reason. We should have open arms and welcome all people into our churches. But we can't make them come. That is a choice that each person has to make.

 

[Notthemama1984]

If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference.

Also I would not trade the Word rightly divided for a crayon box congregation. Being multiracial is not number one priority.

 

[boschertjd18]

If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference.

Also I would not trade the Word rightly divided for a crayon box congregation. Being multiracial is not number one priority.

How are you using this word "multiracial"? What does that mean?

 

[Notthemama1984]

If people don't want to come to church because the church is not diverse, then they are serving their own ungodly motives.

Maybe and as a general rule I would say yes. But if the church is saying, "no jew, no greek, no male, no female," but through their actions the church is saying, "only white. If you are of a different color, you can join but you have to talk like us, dress like us, have the same hobbies, same education, basically be us but with a darker tan," alot of people are not going to stay. It is not for ungodly reasons or motives. It is because although the church talks about being a part of the covenant community, these people do not feel that are a part of it.

When I first started attending presbyterian churches, I attended two of the worst possible churches I could think of. At the first one, my wife and I were treated as complete outsiders. No one talked to us except one lady and that was after the sermon. It wasn't even a meaningful conversation.

The second church was even worse. I traveled nearly 50 miles to attend this church. I got there early and sat down. The only person that talked to me was a guy who was filling in for the pastor who was sick. He wasn't even a member of the church!

It did not matter really how the rest of the service went. I wasn't coming back because it was obvious that I wasn't welcome. This is the kind of thing I am referring to in this thread. I do not know of a single church where a family of a different race is told they cannot worship there, but I know of several churches that treat people in such a way that they know they are not a part of the group.

We are the family of God. All brothers and sisters. One giant covenant community. We should not be divided into clics as if we are in high school again.

-----Added 11/29/2009 at 09:29:55 EST-----

If we are attempting to be multicultural, then yes we have a problem. I am not talking about that. I am talking about being multiracial. Big difference.

Also I would not trade the Word rightly divided for a crayon box congregation. Being multiracial is not number one priority.

How are you using this word "multiracial"? What does that mean?

A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.

 

[py3ak]

Boliver, in reference to your bad experiences, I would suggest that you read James M. Ault's, Spirit and Flesh: Life in a Fundamentalist Baptist Church. He spends some time there dealing with the differing expectations that people have of what a welcoming church looks like, and it is very eye-opening. The fact is that what we perceive as welcoming or unwelcoming has as much to do with us as with the congregation. So for instance, the church I felt most comfortable in as a visitor was a Mexican Presbyterian congregation where no one spoke to me until I obtruded myself on the notice of the pastor and a ruling elder because I wanted to ask a question. The churches you visited sound really nice to me. So it raises the possibility that you felt unwelcome because of how you would try to make a visitor welcome, rather than because that church was trying to discourage you from ever returning. By the same token, churches that creeped me out because of their invasive and aggressive welcoming techniques were probably just trying to make me feel at home.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Thank you for the book suggestion. I will try to obtain a copy of it.

As for the welcoming. Although it can go overboard at some churches, the visitors should feel welcomed and at least someone should say hello.

If my brother knocks on my door today, I am not going to open the door, let him in, and ignore him. I am going to say hello and see how he is doing at a bare minimum. If this is the case with our physical brothers, why should our spiritual brothers be any different?

 

[py3ak]

But I would ignore my brother. That's the point. We come from different backgrounds with different patterns of expectations.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Then I guess Southern Hospitality is a unique phenomenon.

 

[Montanablue]

But I would ignore my brother. That's the point. We come from different backgrounds with different patterns of expectations.

So you don't speak to visitors at church?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that most people would find that a little off putting.

 

[JoyFullMom]

We have actually had the privilege of meeting Anthony Carter, author of "On Being Black and Reformed". He spoke at our former church. One thing he addressed was the fact that here, in the south, so many churches within the black community are more politically based. He has a real burden to see sound doctrine taught...*period*. If you are not from the south...and even then, certain *areas* of the south, you cannot understand this. There is alot of pressure for these pastors to be very political in their pulpits. This is certainly a matter of prayer. It seems to be a situation of generations of just doing things the way they've always been done, many have never even *thought* it should be otherwise. We are praying for God to open hearts and eyes. Mr. Carter has a burden to see more reformed pastors and churches within the black community. There are some reformed thinking pastors...and they need prayer. They are definitely going against the flow.

I hope this does not sound prejudiced...I am merely repeating the burden we heard from Mr. Carter. I do not have a racist bone in my body.

 

[py3ak]

So you don't speak to visitors at church?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that most people would find that a little off putting.

Heidi said this would happen - people would take my description of what I'm comfortable with other people doing toward me as a description of my own conduct towards others.
In fact, I have invited people who have come to our church for the first time over for dinner.
But the point, very simply, is that some people perceive not being introduced to the 12 tribes of Israel the first time they visit as haughtiness and a lack of hospitality, based largely on what they are used to; but others perceive being noticed and approached as a sign of aggressive proselytizing and a lack of respect for personal boundaries. Both people are likely wrong. But the practical application is that if you go to a church and nobody greets you, be grateful for the opportunity to scope it out without awkward conversations, understand that people are shy, and if you want to talk to someone strike up a conversation without putting the onus on them. And if you go to a church and people pin you down in long and uncomfortably personal conversations, and you are forced to introduce yourself in public to the whole congregation, understand that, however bizarre it seems, they are trying to make you feel at home not humiliate you.

 

[Montanablue]

So you don't speak to visitors at church?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that most people would find that a little off putting.

Heidi said this would happen - people would take my description of what I'm comfortable with other people doing toward me as a description of my own conduct towards others.
In fact, I have invited people who have come to our church for the first time over for dinner.
But the point, very simply, is that some people perceive not being introduced to the 12 tribes of Israel the first time they visit as haughtiness and a lack of hospitality, based largely on what they are used to; but others perceive being noticed and approached as a sign of aggressive proselytizing and a lack of respect for personal boundaries. Both people are likely wrong. But the practical application is that if you go to a church and nobody greets you, be grateful for the opportunity to scope it out without awkward conversations, understand that people are shy, and if you want to talk to someone strike up a conversation without putting the onus on them. And if you go to a church and people pin you down in long and uncomfortably personal conversations, and you are forced to introduce yourself in public to the whole congregation, understand that, however bizarre it seems, they are trying to make you feel at home not humiliate you.

Ah ha! I see. Thank you for the clarification. I did, indeed, misunderstand and you make a very good point.

And although I am a more gregarious person, I have also been trapped in awkward and personal conversation upon my first visit to a church, so I can understand somewhat your discomfort. (Once someone asked me if I was adopted as I do not favor either of my parents. This took a particularly hilarious turn when she talked about how much my brother - who is, in fact, adopted - looked like my father.)

 

[calgal]

Then maybe there should also be a discussion about churches that welcome well vs those who exclude. A loving caring church family who can at least acknowledge "outsiders" and have a way to make them not feel like something scraped off the bottom of their shoe might be a good start.