Pastor unqualified?

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Impotency is not willful abandonment. One woman man could be interpreted a man who is married to one woman or dedicated to one woman. I learned this from my old Pastor Roy Blackwood of 2nd Reformed Presbyterian. He is very conservative to the text.
 
I want to know who called him to the ministry. God..The devil, his neighbor, or a church? Especially after all of his escapades.

Just because he is disqualified from ministry doesn't make his life invaluable. He should repent and live for God in whatever station of life he is qualified for. He is no less of a person. He can still be used by God. Just not as a Pastor/Elder.
 
The consequences and repercussions of our sins can sometimes last beyond forgiveness, both divine and human. The thread has ranged far, and I won't address the matter of which divorces are scriptural. The original scenario deals with adulteries, and that is less controversial.

I agree that having a fuller scenario would help, but I think that the case is certainly "exceptional". I'd also point out that a man may be biblically qualified to be a minister, and never be called. This is true even IF a case is made that such a man as described above was in fact biblically qualified. He must honestly present himself, warts and all, to the church who may find his past sufficient grounds for them to pass over him, though not condemning another body if they so called him. These are consequenses of sin, no matter how one views his qualifications

I also think that if this problem were RARE in the church generally, that is when the cost of grace was more accurately reckoned, such a man as shown above might actually have less trouble getting the biblically-minded church to acknowledge his call. In these licencious days, the biblically-minded church is justified in turning up the magnification on the question: of whether someone who once succumbed so thoroughly to the "spirit of the age" and its habitual sins while maintaining a professing Christian testimony, and thus "crucifying the Lord afresh" and scandalizing the church's witness, is actually called to minister to a church and world where "cheap grace" is the rule. The fact is, many men like this hypothetical man above have little problem finding entrance into ministry in the church at large precisely because the standard they are held to is no standard at all. Premium is routinely placed on the "common denominator" qualities of a man rather than his holy and elevated character. He is deemed more worthy who has shared the sins and failings of the majority, because as someone exposed to the teachings of Scripture and knowing better, yet he willfully sinned the more showing "He's no different (i.e. no better) than me." And this makes him a "more sympathetic" minister.

Who can deny that this laxity is the bane of today's church? Who can deny that so many of these men are in fact dis- or un-qualified? We aren't talking about men knowing nothing of the grace of Jesus, living according to their own lights and societies morals, if those. Men born again out of that degredation may be eminently qualified to minister in the church when the gifts are present. But here we are speaking of men whose profession of faith was actively being denied by a lifestyle of sin and mendacity.

Our hypothetical man failed to deal biblically with his first marriage. Blame it on what you will--ignorance, lack of oversight, spiritual atrophy, whatever. He then entered into new and gross sin by adultery. It seems that he complicated the sins further with a divorce that he appears to have had reason to acquiesce to passively, assuming gratuitously he was not wholly in favor of it or even initiating it. He marries his illicit lover. (Was she also a professing believer? Did he lead her into sin?) Though this current marriage ought not be considered "sinful" at present, the entering into of it might have been--and if so, has that sin been acknowledged and repented of? And all the other sins? A mere three years after this chaos of iniquity this man feels "called" to the ministry--the most important of offices, the "highest" calling, demanding superior qualities in a host of areas, exacting the greatest spiritual commitment. What kind of training did this man undergo? What proving? What testing? What did the church think of his inclinations? Was it's counsel sought early or late or ever? What evidence was there of gifts and graces? Did his current church call him with full knowledge of his past? Did he ever question his own calling in light of the biblical testimony?

I cannot say that such a man could NOT be qualified for the ministry. The standards presented in Timothy and Titus are "present tense." Obviously the "above reproach" issue expands the "moment" beyond the present hour, day, and even recent memory; as do sins against light received. But such a calling ought to be the obvious exception. And I fear it is become the rule.
 
Just because he is disqualified from ministry doesn't make his life invaluable. He should repent and live for God in whatever station of life he is qualified for. He is no less of a person. He can still be used by God. Just not as a Pastor/Elder.

Good Point!

I'd also point out that a man may be biblically qualified to be a minister, and never be called.

Exactly! Every Christian man should work hard at living a life that meets these qualifications!

Phillip

[Edited on 2-2-05 by pastorway]
 
Phillip,
I assume you remember this quote:

Too bad Stanley does not practice what he preaches. When I learned years ago that he and his wife were separated while he was still pastoring, I refused to listen to him! He was disqualified long before the divorce.

Are you saying then that C. Stanley could be restored to the position if he stepped down and repented?

Here's what I am hearing: Pastors cannot be disqualified permanently from the ministry as long as they are repentant.........

[Edited on 2-2-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
no. There is more than repentance needed to be restored. In the example of Stanley he owuld need his family restored before I would say he could be qualified to serve as a pastor. As it is he remains disqualfied.

I am not endorsing things like what Swaggart did - crying and weeping and pleading all the while staying in ministry (not that his was legitimate in the first place, but you know what I mean.) It takes more than an "I'm sorry." it takes restoring things to the way they should be and keeping them that way for a time before a man could be re-qualified.

And I do think that there are things that a man could do to be permanently disqualfied. I am not going to post a list, but there are ongoing consequences to sin even after we have been forgiven.

Like I said, if a man committed adultery, he should be out, and there would have to be a great deal of time and a great deal of improvement in his family and spiritual life before he should be re-qualified for the ministry. It would take more than a tearful confession and his wife agreeing to saty with him. Much more.

Phillip
 
Thanks for all the replies. I am still curious regarding the distinction between presalvation and postsalvation sins, and pre"calling" to the misistry and post "calling" to the ministry sins.

If a man commits adultery at the age of 20, divorces and remarries. He becomes a Christian and stays true for thirty years. Then he claims a call to the ministry at age 50, is he still disqualified? Thanks
 
Originally posted by pastorway
Just because he is disqualified from ministry doesn't make his life invaluable. He should repent and live for God in whatever station of life he is qualified for. He is no less of a person. He can still be used by God. Just not as a Pastor/Elder.

Good Point!

I'd also point out that a man may be biblically qualified to be a minister, and never be called.

Exactly! Every Christian man should work hard at living a life that meets these qualifications!

Phillip

[Edited on 2-2-05 by pastorway]

:amen:
 
BTW, Fred....the hypothetical earlier about my hubby and the PCA would have been just him not officiating due to conscience...not disciplining those that are D&R...we do recognize them as married (did I just create a paradox? Better go read those papers....)
 
If a man commits adultery at the age of 20, divorces and remarries. He becomes a Christian and stays true for thirty years. Then he claims a call to the ministry at age 50, is he still disqualified? Thanks

Well, everybody will proboably tear my argument apart but I believe that he'd still be unqualified. If a person commits murder and then while waiting on death row becomes saved, does that mean that he's no longer to be put to death? The person is saved and that sin is forgiven but the consequences for that sin in this life must still be faced.

The man would still have 2 wives. Scripture says that a pastor is to be the husband of one wife. I see no way around this. I would say that it would be obvious that the man is not called because he doesn't meet the qualifications in scripture. It doesn't matter what he thinks or feels. That of course doesn't mean that God cannot use him greatly in the ministry, just not in a pastoral position.

my :2cents:
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
BTW, Fred....the hypothetical earlier about my hubby and the PCA would have been just him not officiating due to conscience...not disciplining those that are D&R...we do recognize them as married (did I just create a paradox? Better go read those papers....)

Colleen,

I understand completely. That is why I think your pastor answered the way he did. My point was that if you take it a step further (and without opening up too big a :worms: ) it would make sense to discipline such a person under one's authority (after all discipline is the act of assisting repentance from sin) that such an action would be viewed unfavorably in the PCA.

I never intended to say that was you position, just pushing out the boundaries some.
 
Here are some points for clarification and some observations:

1) Marriage and Divorce as acts actually do something, they don't simply "represent" something. The first legally puts a man and woman together. The second legally splits them in two.

2) Marriage and Divorce as words are descriptors that purport describe the real, true state of affairs brought into existence by the acts.

3) Therefore, people who are divorced properly or improperly are not "still married" in some mystic sense. No, they are flat not-married, un-married, de-married, what-have-you.

4) This does not mean that their history is negated. They have not resumed a pre-marriage state. A guilty divorcee, even a repentant one, is actually prohibited from marrying again, unless he remarries his former spouse, and then only if she has not married another in the mean time; If she has, they two may never remarry regardless of the circumstances. That summarizes some of the biblical teaching from both Testaments on a few of the issues surrounding this problem. These are permanent consequence of this sin.

5) People can SIN further and remarry sinfully when they ought to be reconciled or resigned to obedience in enforced singleness. This does not mean they are not married! They may have entered into a new marriage sinfully, but marriage describes the state of affairs, not merly what they did. This is why people wrongfully married must not divorce again! That would be another SIN! They must repent, seek forgiveness from others wronged, make restitution/reconcilliation where possible, accept the consequences, and MOVE on in sanctification.

6) A divorcee remarried is not a bigamist. He or she is not actually married to two people. Bigamy = actually being married to two people at once. The two wives (or husbands) are not also married to each other. Bigamists were (NT) not ordered to divorce all but one wife. But they were barred from the ministry (at least as long as they had more than one wife).

7) No one can be married to someone in fact when God's Word prohibits even the application of the term. Hence two men are never married, no matter what an earthly court decides, no matter what "ceremony" they undergo, language game notwihtstanding. Marriage can't exist. It's not possible. Neither two women. Neither a "threesome" (or more-some). Neither so-called marriages conducted "within the laws of consanguinity prohibited by God's Word." Such persons are simply not married and never were, all protestations to the contrary. A man CANNOT have his father's wife. A brother CANNOT marry his sister.

8) Salvation marks a great divide. It marks the critical moment when a man passes from death unto life. When he is definitively forgiven. When he is Justified/Adopted/and even Sanctified in the definitive sense. There ought to be a major distinction between a former way of life and the new one: "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." The sins of the past having been radically dealt with, some consequences remain, but I don't think God expects all the ministers he shall call from the Redeemed mass will have had "moral" lives prior to their conversion. Hence, the major distinction between an adulterer prior to conversion, and one afterward. A Christian Valiant, who sinned at age 20 before he ever knew the Lord, who at age 50 stands before God's people like a Moses--should the people of God be denied a shepherd such as he? I think correct exegesis of the relevant texts stands against that interpretation.

9) Beware of self-promoters. I think very few truly repentant Christian adulterers ever see themselves as ministerial material. I think someone who truly mourns over his sin and the lingering consequences of it instinctively turns away from the post, feeling unworthy. Only a serious effort by the church to thrust him in would prompt him to offer himself up to a call.

10) Sin is complicated and chaotic. Our God is a God of Order. He brings sense and resolution when his ways are followed, better before sin enters in, but also afterward.
 
I 99.4% disagree with you, Bruce.

Since there was 679 words (according to Word counting scheme) that means you only disagreed with 4 of his words. Which ones were they? :banana::banana::banana:
 
#4....but disagrees with what he considers legitimate divorce
#5....I agree that they are considered married and that marriage recognized in a legal sense. But I do NOT believe the person will ever be qualified as elder/pastor again. Some other part of the ministry, yes.

okay...NOW go figure it out....only do it on a point by point basis, not by how many words....we all know how words can be overused to filibuster!
 
Originally posted by pastorway
Right Fred.
He would need to step down immediately as part of his repentance and put his family back together. Then, if he had repented, been a flawless example of getting his family life back together and being faithful to his wife, after TIME had passed and he was tested and proved that he was NOW above reproach, then he could be restored to the ministry. This in my mind would take a very very long time though.
A person can repent and be forgiven of any sin and God can bring true fruit in a person's life that helps show that the repentance was real. Having said that, regarding being restored to the ministry, would it matter who the pastor committed the sin with? What if the adultery occurred with a woman from his flock? Not to try and compare one sin with another, but it seems more heinous if the person were somebody who's soul God had entrusted the pastor with. From a practical standpoint, how would the church determine that the person had truly repented and can safely be entrusted with another flock? Would/should his past sin with a member of his flock be brought to the attention of a new congregation he's candidating for, even if it had occurred several years prior?

[Edited on 2-2-2005 by blhowes]
 
Originally posted by gwine
You know I was kidding, don't you?


loopyBlonde-blinking.gif
duh!
 
MacArthur on sin in the pulpit:

It has always saddened me over the years as I’ve watched church leaders bring a reproach on the church of Jesus Christ. What’s shocking to me is how frequently Christian leaders sin grossly, then step back into leadership almost as soon as the publicity dies away.

Some time ago I received a cassette tape that disturbed me greatly. It was a recording of the recommissioning service of a pastor who had made national news by confessing to an adulterous affair. After little more than a year of “counseling and rehabilitation,” this man was returning to public ministry with his church’s blessing.

That is happening everywhere. Restoration teams—equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor—wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”. Our church has received inquiries wondering if we have written guidelines or a workbook to help restore fallen pastors to leadership. Many no doubt expect that a church the size of ours would have a systematic rehabilitation program for sinning leaders.

Gross sin among Christian leaders is a signal that something is seriously wrong with the church. But an even greater problem is the lowering of standards to accommodate a leader’s sin. That the church is so eager to bring these men back into leadership is a symptom of rottenness at the core.

Some have claimed that a leader’s failure makes him more effective in shepherding fallen people. That is ludicrous. Should we drag the bottom of sin’s cesspool for the most heinous sinners to lead the church? Are they better able to understand the sinner? Certainly not! Our pattern for ministry is the sinless Son of God. The church is to be like Him and her leaders are to be our models of Christlikeness.

We must recognize that leadership in the church cannot be regarded lightly. The foremost requirement of a church leader is that he be above reproach (1 Timothy 3:2, 10; Titus 1:7). That is a difficult prerequisite, and not everyone can meet it.

There are some sins that irreparably shatter a man’s reputation and disqualify him from a ministry of leadership forever. Even Paul, man of God that he was, said he feared such a possibility. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 he says, “I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”

When referring to his body, Paul obviously had sexual immorality in view. In 1 Corinthians 6:18 he describes it as a sin against one’s own body—sexual sin is in its own category. Certainly it disqualifies a man from church leadership since he permanently forfeits a blameless reputation as a one-woman man (Proverbs 6:33; 1 Timothy 3:2).

Where did we get the idea that a year’s leave of absence and some counseling can restore integrity to someone who has squandered his reputation and destroyed people’s trust? Certainly not from the Bible. Trust forfeited is not so easily regained. Once purity is sacrificed, the ability to lead by example is lost forever. As my friend Chuck Swindoll once commented when referring to this issue—it takes only one pin to burst a balloon.

What about forgiveness? Shouldn’t we be eager to restore our fallen brethren? To fellowship, yes. But not to leadership. It is not an act of love to return a disqualified man to public ministry; it is an act of disobedience.

By all means we should be forgiving. But we cannot erase the consequences of sin. I am not advocating that we “shoot our wounded.” I’m simply saying that we shouldn’t rush them back to the front lines, and we should not put them in charge of other soldiers. The church should do everything possible to minister to those who have sinned and repented. But that does not include restoring the mantle of leadership to a man who has disqualified himself and forfeited the right to lead. Doing so is unbiblical and lowers the standard God has set.

So why is the contemporary church so eager to be tolerant? I’m certain a major reason is the sin and unbelief that pervade the church. If casual Christians can lower the expectations on their leadership, they will be much more comfortable with their own sin. With lower moral standards, the church becomes more tolerant of sin and less tolerant of holiness. The “sinner-friendly” church is intolerable to God—that is a frightening condition.

Conservative Christians have for most of the previous century focused on the battle for doctrinal purity. And that is good. But we are losing the battle for moral purity. Some of the worst defeats have occurred among our more visible leaders. The church cannot lower the standard to accommodate them. We should hold it higher so we can regain purity. If we lose here, we have utterly failed, no matter how orthodox our confession of faith. We can’t win if we compromise the biblical standard of moral purity.

What should you do in the current crisis? Pray for your church’s leaders. Keep them accountable. Encourage them. Let them know you are following their godly example. Understand that they are not perfect, but continue nonetheless to call them to the highest level of godliness and purity. The church must have leaders who are genuinely above reproach. Anything less is an abomination.
 
And the sadness grows...even in the most conservative (albeit Dispensational) churches. The Independant Baptist Churches who used to be against divorce of any kind now because of Hyles are encouraged to get rid of the wife if you tire of her and keep your pulpit. And now I hear that there is the same situation going on through those that are attached with Pensacola
188.gif
 
Colleen,
99.4%! Yikes!
Seriously, I wonder if we are really that far off. Tell me what you thought was wrong--statements, facts, conclusions.
I'd love to narrow that gap, if possible.
 
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Here are some points for clarification and some observations:

1) Marriage and Divorce as acts actually do something, they don't simply "represent" something. The first legally puts a man and woman together. The second legally splits them in two.

2) Marriage and Divorce as words are descriptors that purport describe the real, true state of affairs brought into existence by the acts.

3) Therefore, people who are divorced properly or improperly are not "still married" in some mystic sense. No, they are flat not-married, un-married, de-married, what-have-you.

4) This does not mean that their history is negated. They have not resumed a pre-marriage state. A guilty divorcee, even a repentant one, is actually prohibited from marrying again, unless he remarries his former spouse, and then only if she has not married another in the mean time; If she has, they two may never remarry regardless of the circumstances. That summarizes some of the biblical teaching from both Testaments on a few of the issues surrounding this problem. These are permanent consequence of this sin.

5) People can SIN further and remarry sinfully when they ought to be reconciled or resigned to obedience in enforced singleness. This does not mean they are not married! They may have entered into a new marriage sinfully, but marriage describes the state of affairs, not merly what they did. This is why people wrongfully married must not divorce again! That would be another SIN! They must repent, seek forgiveness from others wronged, make restitution/reconcilliation where possible, accept the consequences, and MOVE on in sanctification.

6) A divorcee remarried is not a bigamist. He or she is not actually married to two people. Bigamy = actually being married to two people at once. The two wives (or husbands) are not also married to each other. Bigamists were (NT) not ordered to divorce all but one wife. But they were barred from the ministry (at least as long as they had more than one wife).

7) No one can be married to someone in fact when God's Word prohibits even the application of the term. Hence two men are never married, no matter what an earthly court decides, no matter what "ceremony" they undergo, language game notwihtstanding. Marriage can't exist. It's not possible. Neither two women. Neither a "threesome" (or more-some). Neither so-called marriages conducted "within the laws of consanguinity prohibited by God's Word." Such persons are simply not married and never were, all protestations to the contrary. A man CANNOT have his father's wife. A brother CANNOT marry his sister.

8) Salvation marks a great divide. It marks the critical moment when a man passes from death unto life. When he is definitively forgiven. When he is Justified/Adopted/and even Sanctified in the definitive sense. There ought to be a major distinction between a former way of life and the new one: "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." The sins of the past having been radically dealt with, some consequences remain, but I don't think God expects all the ministers he shall call from the Redeemed mass will have had "moral" lives prior to their conversion. Hence, the major distinction between an adulterer prior to conversion, and one afterward. A Christian Valiant, who sinned at age 20 before he ever knew the Lord, who at age 50 stands before God's people like a Moses--should the people of God be denied a shepherd such as he? I think correct exegesis of the relevant texts stands against that interpretation.

9) Beware of self-promoters. I think very few truly repentant Christian adulterers ever see themselves as ministerial material. I think someone who truly mourns over his sin and the lingering consequences of it instinctively turns away from the post, feeling unworthy. Only a serious effort by the church to thrust him in would prompt him to offer himself up to a call.

10) Sin is complicated and chaotic. Our God is a God of Order. He brings sense and resolution when his ways are followed, better before sin enters in, but also afterward.

Good post.
 
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Here are some points for clarification and some observations:

1) Marriage and Divorce as acts actually do something, they don't simply "represent" something. The first legally puts a man and woman together. The second legally splits them in two.
Legally in the eyes of man, not of God and is in direct disobedience to God
2) Marriage and Divorce as words are descriptors that purport describe the real, true state of affairs brought into existence by the acts.
????
3) Therefore, people who are divorced properly or improperly are not "still married" in some mystic sense. No, they are flat not-married, un-married, de-married, what-have-you.
disagree...scripture still refers to them as the other's husband/wife even though divorced
4) This does not mean that their history is negated. They have not resumed a pre-marriage state. A guilty divorcee, even a repentant one, is actually prohibited from marrying again, unless he remarries his former spouse, and then only if she has not married another in the mean time; If she has, they two may never remarry regardless of the circumstances. That summarizes some of the biblical teaching from both Testaments on a few of the issues surrounding this problem. These are permanent consequence of this sin.
correct, under the fact that one has remarried another...they may not remarry eachother
5) People can SIN further and remarry sinfully when they ought to be reconciled or resigned to obedience in enforced singleness. This does not mean they are not married! They may have entered into a new marriage sinfully, but marriage describes the state of affairs, not merly what they did. This is why people wrongfully married must not divorce again! That would be another SIN! They must repent, seek forgiveness from others wronged, make restitution/reconcilliation where possible, accept the consequences, and MOVE on in sanctification.
agreed...(I didn't read this clearly the first time) they have entered into the marriage sinfully, but I agree that they should remain so married (the anabaptists would insist upon a separation...this is where I differ with them)
6) A divorcee remarried is not a bigamist. He or she is not actually married to two people. Bigamy = actually being married to two people at once. The two wives (or husbands) are not also married to each other. Bigamists were (NT) not ordered to divorce all but one wife. But they were barred from the ministry (at least as long as they had more than one wife).
no they are not a "bigamist", but according to scripture their previous spouse is still considered their husband/wife...and therefore they still have a husband/wife living other than their current spouse.
7) No one can be married to someone in fact when God's Word prohibits even the application of the term. Hence two men are never married, no matter what an earthly court decides, no matter what "ceremony" they undergo, language game notwihtstanding. Marriage can't exist. It's not possible. Neither two women. Neither a "threesome" (or more-some). Neither so-called marriages conducted "within the laws of consanguinity prohibited by God's Word." Such persons are simply not married and never were, all protestations to the contrary. A man CANNOT have his father's wife. A brother CANNOT marry his sister.
not sure what you are saying here...who are you refering to?
8) Salvation marks a great divide. It marks the critical moment when a man passes from death unto life. When he is definitively forgiven. When he is Justified/Adopted/and even Sanctified in the definitive sense. There ought to be a major distinction between a former way of life and the new one: "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." The sins of the past having been radically dealt with, some consequences remain, but I don't think God expects all the ministers he shall call from the Redeemed mass will have had "moral" lives prior to their conversion. Hence, the major distinction between an adulterer prior to conversion, and one afterward. A Christian Valiant, who sinned at age 20 before he ever knew the Lord, who at age 50 stands before God's people like a Moses--should the people of God be denied a shepherd such as he? I think correct exegesis of the relevant texts stands against that interpretation.
if that person is disqualified as a shephard, even as a consequence of his past actions, then they are not being denied a shepherd, there is another shepherd out there for them.
9) Beware of self-promoters. I think very few truly repentant Christian adulterers ever see themselves as ministerial material. I think someone who truly mourns over his sin and the lingering consequences of it instinctively turns away from the post, feeling unworthy. Only a serious effort by the church to thrust him in would prompt him to offer himself up to a call.
agree with most of this till the end....even at the push of the church, he should refuse it.
10) Sin is complicated and chaotic. Our God is a God of Order. He brings sense and resolution when his ways are followed, better before sin enters in, but also afterward.
sense and resolution, order. He may have another position in the church, but not elder/pastorship. God still holds the requirements of marriage and the consequences of divorce to those that are christian and non-christian alike. The consequences being the man has a living wife. The man, himself commited adultery, divorce, married his mistress...he may repent and be forgiven, but he has lost the priveledge and calling of the pulpit and eldership forever. Those are the consequences of his actions. His sin may be washed away and forgotton, but nowhere does it say that the consequences should be done away with.
 
Colleen writes:

no they are not a "bigamist", but according to scripture their previous spouse is still considered their husband/wife...and therefore they still have a husband/wife living other than their current spouse.

I agree. What did Jesus mean when He said this?

Joh 4:18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."
 
Well, Jesus didn't say "you have five husbands and you are living with a sixth." He said, "you have had." Doesn't that mean the others are not considered husbands anymore, or does the Greek verb tense imply otherwise?
 
No, that was Jesus' point, the husband that the woman had was not her husband. Her husband was the first one she married.
 
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