This thread is starting to repeat itself.
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The first table is obviously not in his list of Natural Law. That is why I asked Dr. Guy Richard's how Samuel Rutherford defined moral law. That is where the Radical Two Kingdom starts to divert from our heritage.
"The fact is the civil kingdom has been ordained by God as a common realm, a realm for all people of whatever religious conviction in which to live and pursue their cultural tasks, while natural law is God's common moral revelation given to all people of whatever religious conviction." A Biblical case for Natural Law p.38
David Van Drunen
So are you saying that the first table of the law should be the law of the land?The first table is obviously not in his list of Natural Law. That is why I asked Dr. Guy Richard's how Samuel Rutherford defined moral law. That is where the Radical Two Kingdom starts to divert from our heritage.
"The fact is the civil kingdom has been ordained by God as a common realm, a realm for all people of whatever religious conviction in which to live and pursue their cultural tasks, while natural law is God's common moral revelation given to all people of whatever religious conviction." A Biblical case for Natural Law p.38
David Van Drunen
That is one of the practical problems I was reffering to.I certainly disagree with him on common grace. But unless you are going to start killing Buddhists, then we are going to end up with something like natural law if we want some sort of transcendent authority in the civil realm.
And what is the penalty (still an ethical issue) which should be applied according to this perspicuous-to-all-natural-law, as it were?I think you assume natural law cannot answer that question, if I'm wrong please correct me? Most nations laws have laws against bestiality. Not many, if any are Christian nations. So it would appear that being a distinctly Christian nation has nothing to do with a society recognizing the evil in that act.
The various states have worked, I believe starting with English common law (though don't quote me there), various penalties for such crimes. If you think the death penalty is more appropriate than by all means petition your local government to adopt that. But consult a lawyer first they will know far better than I ever could why it is that way. In fact they should be able to explain the complexity of our legal system better than me to answer the why question.And what is the penalty (still an ethical issue) which should be applied according to this perspicuous-to-all-natural-law, as it were?
And what is the penalty (still an ethical issue) which should be applied according to this perspicuous-to-all-natural-law, as it were?
I certainly agree with with broad moral decay we are witnessing. But my question still stands, how would we in America given our current legal situation (constitution, Bill of rights, case laws, and court rulings) institute the first table of law practically speaking? Under our current legal situation that is impossible.My first problem with this revamped Natural Law theory is that there is no basis for the second table if the first table is eliminated. The Natural Law theory these guys have defined lacks a solid foundation. The new foundation is sand since it is being defined by men and not God. Therefore we are finding ourselves headed in the direction of what we have heard about Canada. The very fabric of a good Society is being eroded and even our gender discussions have turned into mass confusion. Law turns into something ambiguous and the definitions become radically changed.
We do have a defined Confessional understanding about Law and civil government. That understanding is quickly being ignored because of the downgrade and removal of the first table. The second table is being removed bit by bit now. It is so sad.
Except that God permits nations other than ancient Isreal to givern themselves apart from what you are suggesting, as we are now under the NC era.Get rid of the Constitution and bill of rights, case laws, court rulings, repent of them and turn to Jesus Christ since He is King. Then enact godly laws according to the principles of Scripture.
Except that God permits nations other than ancient Isreal to givern themselves apart from what you are suggesting, as we are now under the NC era.
I appreciate your honesty. So you would advocate massive bloodshed that would result in losing, being tried convicted and executed (along with any conspirators? Set our religion back in the public eye and leave our country open to attack? There is the concept of necessary evil.Get rid of the Constitution and bill of rights, case laws, court rulings, repent of them and turn to Jesus Christ since He is King. Then enact godly laws according to the principles of Scripture.
I appreciate your honesty. So you would advocate massive bloodshed that would result in losing, being tried convicted and executed (along with any conspirators? Set our religion back in the public eye and leave our country open to attack? There is the concept of necessary evil.
I appreciate your honesty. So you would advocate massive bloodshed that would result in losing, being tried convicted and executed (along with any conspirators? Set our religion back in the public eye and leave our country open to attack? There is the concept of necessary evil.
What does he say about genocide? I posted the postmill option. There is no other option legally. You said it yourself get rid of all our laws and start over. How else could you do it.1) Do you believe that is the only way that what I said could happen? Or are there other possible ways what I said could happen?
2) What does God say about such things? What does He say about who is King of kings? What does He say about who Rulers, Judges, etc. ought to be? What does He say about how a nation reforms? What does He say about where that reform starts?
I like your plan more.There must first be a recognition of the two tablets. That would be the first thing to do. Repent of the attack on the two tablets. I am sure you are familiar with how the ACLU and other organizations have made some strong attacks on the posting of the Ten Commandments. We were a Nation that did acknowledge them at one time. The light of those tables is still there even though it has grown dim and hidden behind the clouds as Rutherford says. That is a good first step.
What does he say about genocide? I posted the postmill option. There is no other option legally. You said it yourself get rid of all our laws and start over. How else could you do it.
No it is logical. Since you admited implicitly that the only way to get what you want is to get rid of our legal system and replace it. How? Randy did give a third option but before that the only two options I saw was either postmillianalism or some overthow our government that would result in genocide because most people wouldn't go along with it.I'm failing to see where you get genocide from? I didn't state anything about that unless you mean the reference to Psalm 2. If that's what you are referring to, Psalm 2 clearly shows that the Lord will cause them (nations/rulers) to perish. They will at some point come to nothing, and be judged eternally.
the only way to get what you want
The nations will be fully obeying Jesus after He returns, but God allows them to be e governed as they see fit until that time.False. All nations/rulers must submit to Christ who is King of kings lest they perish in the way (Ps. 2). We are not dispensationalists.
Further, I am not suggesting America be Israel, nor am I stating that America has to be exactly like Israel nor enact laws that were only for Israel.
The culture shall though not be turned To God way in full until Kingdom comes, either pre or post mil version!It's not what I want, but what God wants and will do.
And the logical deduction according to man may be genocide, but that's not what Scripture declares. So I could care less about what man's reasoning is for something to be able to happen. If God says it should be a certain way and it will be a certain way, and will come about it, it will. Thankfully, he also shows in Scripture clearly how it will come about. A postmillennial or historicist (not premillennial) view would be in line with what this line of thinking. A reformed presbyterian (Covenanter) way of thinking would say exactly what I said in post #130, and that absolutely does not require genocide to take place. It requires repentance and faith and submission to Jesus Christ.
I asked about r2k because it seemed to be tied into Klineanism.We have strayed from the OP. We ended up discussing R2K again and now we are seeking the repair of it. Our Confessions have solid statements concerning Civil Government and it's responsibilities. Let's remember that.
Let's get back to comments related to Kliniansims or just let this thread fall into the archives.
I have no problem speaking about R2K as a result of Klinianism. The topic was straying a bit farther into other things like Postmil or Amil or how do we politically solve the nations problems with law.... I believe R2K is one of the many problems. I actually believe R2K takes us out of Confessional heritage. It is related to Klinianism. As noted earlier in this thread Intrusion Ethics has removed the observance of the creation ordinance of a Sabbath for non-covenanted people. Note what Susan said.I asked about r2k because it seemed to be tied into Klineanism.
It’s clear that by maintaining that the Sabbath was meant only for a theocratic people and not for non-covenantal people he is at odds with the Confession.
Evidently, my reply which referred to Escondido, was way off the topic of "Problems with Klineanism," and was deleted by mods.I'm certain almost every natural law theorist would have said death. I think you are still operating on the assumption that natural law = grace above nature, as in late Roman Catholicism. But this is not necessarily the case.
Natural law's versatility, as opposed to just copying and pasting the Torah, is that it can address things like international law, piracy, Trump's Space Force, etc. It's equity. It can use the wisdom in the OT but it can also apply it.
Evidently, my reply which referred to Escondido, was way off the topic of "Problems with Klineanism," and was deleted by mods.