Puppet show during worship

[Jude24]

When I was searching for a local reformed church to join about a year ago, I visited the local PCA church (the only reformed churches within 60 miles of me is the small PCA church plant and the reformed Baptist church I am currently a member of). The service and preaching was mostly faithfully reformed, but right before the preaching started they had a "children's time" service. During this service, one of the elder's wives had all the children in the congregation come up to the front, and she then performed a little skit with a puppet. Basically, she talked to the puppet and talked for the puppet back to her and to the children. The puppet "talked" through a scenario, and she then taught the puppet/children a lesson using scripture and application. Based on researching their previous services through their website, this looked like a weekly occurrence. This made me very uncomfortable and felt inappropriate/a violation of the RPW. I actually decided against going to this church because of this practice.

Looking back on this and thinking about it again, I am wondering if I over-reacted. What do you all think? Is a puppet show during worship a violation of the RPW?

 

[Ploutos]

The puppet show? Or the fact that they had children's time? Or the fact that they had an elder's wife leading a part of the worship service?

 

[MyCrows]

I don't think having a time period where you address the children primarily is a violation of the RPW, as long as it is being conducted by an ordained teacher, or someone approved by the session. Most likely, the whole congregation will be hearing the same words, but it is geared down towards children's level of understanding.

Puppet show seems bit over the top. I would consider it irreverent at the least, to have this be part of the formal service.

 

[Jude24]

The puppet show? Or the fact that they had children's time? Or the fact that they had an elder's wife leading a part of the worship service?

Specifically the puppet show is what I was referring to. Although, I suppose I could also see an issue with the elder's wife leading this portion as well.

 

[Jude24]

I don't think having a time period where you address the children primarily is a violation of the RPW, as long as it is being conducted by an ordained teacher, or someone approved by the session. Most likely, the whole congregation will be hearing the same words, but it is geared down towards children's level of understanding.

Puppet show seems bit over the top. I would consider it irreverent at the least, to have this be part of the formal service

I agree with this. I actually thought it was a good idea to have a children's portion that everybody could be a part of. Especially rather than having children in the nursery separate from the rest of the congregation. It was specifically the use of puppets that seemed wrong.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

The pastor should address all ages when speaking. Otherwise, children should be present and as they mature are more and more able to take part in the full service.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

When I was searching for a local reformed church to join about a year ago, I visited the local PCA church (the only reformed churches within 60 miles of me is the small PCA church plant and the reformed Baptist church I am currently a member of). The service and preaching was mostly faithfully reformed, but right before the preaching started they had a "children's time" service. During this service, one of the elder's wives had all the children in the congregation come up to the front, and she then performed a little skit with a puppet. Basically, she talked to the puppet and talked for the puppet back to her and to the children. The puppet "talked" through a scenario, and she then taught the puppet/children a lesson using scripture and application. Based on researching their previous services through their website, this looked like a weekly occurrence. This made me very uncomfortable and felt inappropriate/a violation of the RPW. I actually decided against going to this church because of this practice.

Looking back on this and thinking about it again, I am wondering if I over-reacted. What do you all think? Is a puppet show during worship a violation of the RPW?

I didn't see a problem with it when a church plant we were a part of did this in 2014. Granted, the Pastor taught the lesson and they were using an easel with felt fabric objects and not puppets as best I can recall. I think I certainly would've preferred it to nothing being taught at all to the children where church is simply an exercise in keeping children quiet. I'm not sure it would be appropriate to have the elder's wife up at the front teaching the children.

 

[Jude24]

I didn't see a problem with it when a church plant we were a part of did this in 2014. Granted, the Pastor taught the lesson and they were using an easel with felt fabric objects and not puppets as best I can recall. I think I certainly would've preferred it to nothing being taught at all to the children where church is simply an exercise in keeping children quiet. I'm not sure it would be appropriate to have the elder's wife up at the front teaching the children.

Agreed. I think the use of a puppet made it feel more like entertainment or a show than an actual lesson. I also agree that it should have been an elder teaching.

 

[Jack K]

Is it allowable for a woman to teach children? I say yes.

Is it allowable to use a puppet to teach a point to children? I say yes again. I will add that for kids of a certain age puppets tend to work well, though I have several reasons why I usually prefer not to use them.

Is it allowable to include a children's teaching time in the worship service? This is the trickier question. I like how the kids are in the service rather than sent away to something separate. Also, we absolutely should address the kids as part of the congregation, and sometimes speak to them directly in kid-friendly ways. But when we do this in the service, we need to take into account the fact that we are in the service rather than in classroom time. So I say yes, we can have a time when children are spoken to directly, but with qualifications.

Let's start with who does the speaking. I would select a pastor, or else someone with similar qualifications to those we might look for if we needed someone to read a sermon on a day the pastor was suddenly sick. Keep in mind that during a talk for the kids the whole congregation is listening and in effect being preached at (and usually is extra attentive). Any special time for addressing kids is an extension of the sermon and should be treated as such. This also means we might decide not to use some techniques that otherwise would be appropriate were we in a classroom setting. I am okay with the occasional use of a prop while preaching if done with care, so in theory I hesitate to ban the puppet absolutely, but a weekly appearance makes me uncomfortable. It starts to feel like, "This puppet is an element of our worship at ________ Church." Best to save the puppet for a classroom setting.

All that said, the way churches apply both the regulative principle and the headship principle is going to vary quite a bit throughout the Reformed world. Personally, I have never been part of a church that applied these principles exactly the way I would apply them if I alone got to choose. There's always something they do that makes me say, "If I were in charge, I would do this and not that." So, don't be too quick to assume that because a church applies the principles differently than you would they are broadly dismissive toward them. If there are other ways the church would be a good fit for you, ask about it before you reject the church out of hand.

 

[Logan]

To be clear, this was not during the worship service?

 

[Jude24]

Is it allowable for a woman to teach children? I say yes.

Is it allowable to use a puppet to teach a point to children? I say yes again. I will add that for kids of a certain age puppets tend to work well, though I have several reasons why I usually prefer not to use them.

Is it allowable to include a children's teaching time in the worship service? This is the trickier question. I like how the kids are in the service rather than sent away to something separate. We absolutely should address the kids as part of the congregation, and sometimes speak to them directly in kid-friendly ways. But when we do this in the service, we need to take into account the fact that we are in the service. So, I say yes we can have a time when children are spoken to directly, but with qualifications.

Let's start with who does the speaking. I would select a pastor, or else someone with similar qualifications to those we might look for if we needed someone to read a sermon on a day the pastor was suddenly sick. Keep in mind that during a talk for the kids the whole congregation is listening and in effect being preached at (and usually is extra attentive). Also, As for the puppet, I am okay with the occasional use of a prop while preaching if done with care, so in theory I hesitate to ban the puppet absolutely, but a weekly appearance makes me uncomfortable. It starts to feel like, "This puppet is an element of our worship at ________ Church." Best to save the puppet for a classroom setting.

All that said, the way churches apply both the regulative principle and the headship principle is going to vary quite a bit throughout the Reformed world. Personally, I have never been part of a church that applied these principles exactly the way I would apply them if I alone got to choose. There's always something they do that makes me say, "If I were in charge, I would do this and not that." So, don't be too quick to assume that because a church applies the principle differently than you would they

Thank you for your insightful response! I agree that the use of a puppet and a woman teaching children are not necessarily wrong. You are absolutely correct about the differences of opinion on the actual application of RPW. I'll not be too quick to judge based on differences of how I would like things to be done.

 

[Jude24]

To be clear, this was not during the worship service?

It was directly between worship and preaching.

 

[alexanderjames]

It was directly between worship and preaching.

The worship service would include everything within the formal congregational gathering lead by the elders (singing, preaching, prayer, creed, etc.).

 

[Edward]

It was directly between worship and preaching

I don't understand this statement.

 

[retroGRAD3]

To translate a bit. In many non-denominational church settings, "worship" is what they call the singing part.

To add to what other's have said though, the worship service in a reformed church is the singing, praying, and preaching. Basically, everything that takes place after the call to worship.

 

[Jude24]

I don't understand this statement.

To translate a bit. In many non-denominational church settings, "worship" is what they call the singing part.

To add to what other's have said though, the worship service in a reformed church is the singing, praying, and preaching. Basically, everything that takes place after the call to worship.

The worship service would include everything within the formal congregational gathering lead by the elders (singing, preaching, prayer, creed, etc.).

I agree with this and know that preaching is a part of worship....just a way to explain at what point of the services it took place. Easier than saying between call to worship/singing/prayer/confessional reading/prayer/etc. and preaching. I clarified in my first post that it was right before preaching.

I am not non-denominational nor do I attend a non-denominational church. I only became reformed at the beginning of this year and some of the old terminology still slips out. My mistake. There is no offense on my part I just want to make sure this is known.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you were non-denom. Was just trying to help clarify.

 

[chuckd]

The puppet "talked" through a scenario

Witchcraft!

 

[Edm]

Was there a Jesus puppet?

I prefer worship services to be without a call to the front for children’s part. That, in some cases, seems to be a “everyone watch me play and make adults laugh” time.

 

[Jude24]

Was there a Jesus puppet?

I prefer worship services to be without a call to the front for children’s part. That, in some cases, seems to be a “everyone watch me play and make adults laugh” time.

I agree, that is what it seemed like.

Thankfully, it was not a Jesus puppet. Just a puppet of a child.