Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Correct Mark. My bad. Fulfilled!
Sabbath Observance
- Thread starter Joshua
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Correct Mark. My bad. Fulfilled!
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Are you saying that you watch football on Sundays? That's what it sounds like you are saying. If not, please forgive me for misunderstanding.
The Sabbath is a day to devote to the worship of God, NOT to the watching of football and pursuit of selfish pleasures:
[Edited on 1-6-2006 by biblelighthouse]
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Christian liberty...
Saiph
Puritan Board Junior
I believe Isaiah means not to seek pleasure or leisure apart from God's blessing or regocnition thereof.
We are told to "delight" in the LORD in that same passage. Should we not drink fine ale on the Sabbath, or smoke cigars, or make love to our wives ? In what sense is "doing our pleasure" meant then ? We are to cease from striving and coveteousness and grasping with tightly clenched fists at the ambitions and objects of the world which we are so tempted to do throughout the work week.
Dedicating a day of rest to the LORD does not mean "Do not do anything fun". It means, use your conscience and the "delight of the LORD" on this day in a special and more concentrated way than the other days of the week. Thank Him for the rest of the Sabbath in everything throughout the day, even while watching a football game.
It comes down to liberty and conscience on many issues. (If you look forward to the football game more than the Sabbath that might be an indicator to refrain, but each man knows his own temptations)
We are told to "delight" in the LORD in that same passage. Should we not drink fine ale on the Sabbath, or smoke cigars, or make love to our wives ? In what sense is "doing our pleasure" meant then ? We are to cease from striving and coveteousness and grasping with tightly clenched fists at the ambitions and objects of the world which we are so tempted to do throughout the work week.
Dedicating a day of rest to the LORD does not mean "Do not do anything fun". It means, use your conscience and the "delight of the LORD" on this day in a special and more concentrated way than the other days of the week. Thank Him for the rest of the Sabbath in everything throughout the day, even while watching a football game.
It comes down to liberty and conscience on many issues. (If you look forward to the football game more than the Sabbath that might be an indicator to refrain, but each man knows his own temptations)
BobVigneault
Bawberator
I'm a Green Bay Packer fan. Season stats - 4 wins, 12 losses. Where is the PLEASURE in THAT?
BobVigneault
Bawberator
"or make love to our wives ?"
I'm all for christian liberty Mark but HOW MANY DO YOU HAVE?????
I'm all for christian liberty Mark but HOW MANY DO YOU HAVE?????
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
I couldn't agree more. We ought not misuse the OT to impose Talmudic applications of the Sabbath principle on one another. If your conscience is wounded by watching football (as a prelude to a nap for instance...the games stink anyway), then don't.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by maxdetail
I'm a Green Bay Packer fan. Season stats - 4 wins, 12 losses. Where is the PLEASURE in THAT?
At least Packer fans are loyal in the infrequent ups and perennial downs.
I saw your post and was going to comment that there is a fireman at our church who is an ardent sabbatarian, spends probably 5-6 hours each Lord's day at our place of meeting, and probably does not spend time watching football (that I know of) on the Lord's day. Then I saw your name.
Hi Mike! And welcome aboard.
Vic
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
I am all for drinking, smoking, and making love on the Sabbath. While I drink wine, I can read Psalm 104:15 and Praise the Lord for what He has done. (In fact, if wine-drinking were wrong on the Sabbath, we couldn't properly have the Lord's Supper!) I can smoke a quality cigar, and thank God for His tobacco plants. I can make love to my wife, and think about the Song of Solomon, and Ephesians 5, and Christ and the Church.
I never suggested we should "not do anything fun". As I said above, there are many pleasurable activities which are acceptable on the Lord's Day.
But I have major problems with football-viewing on Sunday:
1) Those football players are working on the Lord's Day, and their work does NOT qualify as works of necessity or mercy. Thus, if I watch them on the Lord's Day, am I not tacitly approving of their sin, and sharing in their sin?
2) I have not figured out how to actively worship God by watching football. (But if you are aware of a way to genuinely do this, please fill me in.) Like I said, I can drink wine and read Ps. 104:15. I can make love and think about the Song of Solomon and Ephesians 5. But what Scripture can I have foremost on my mind during an NFL game?
Hey, if there is a *real* way to genuinely worship God by watching football on Sunday, I'm all ears. I am a huge Cowboys fan. But this past year, I only watched Cowboys games that fell on Monday, Thursday, or Saturday. As for the rest of them, I just waited until Monday to check the score.
I believe Scripture prohibits sports on God's day. Sunday is for worshipping God, and football is not a form of worship.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
I couldn't help but notice this thread was started on the Sabbath...
Saiph
Puritan Board Junior
So do you go to a restaurant after church to eat a meal ? Those people are working on Sunday. There is a difference between supporting Sabbath-breakers because they are christians, and looting the pagans.
I have no problem using the services of pagans on the Lord's Day. (e.g. restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, Home Depot, etc . . .)
I do not share the football dilemma because I am not interested in sports. I suppose you could record the game and watch it later if you are that convicted about it.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I avoid all of those things on the Lords day unless an emergency arises.
Neh 13:15 In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions.
Neh 13:16 Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.
Neh 13:17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day?
Neh 13:18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath."
Neh 13:16 Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem.
Neh 13:17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day?
Neh 13:18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath."
Saiph
Puritan Board Junior
Mar 2:23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
Mar 2:25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:
Mar 2:26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?"
Mar 2:27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."
Which is worse Jeff, eating food sold by Phoenicians, or the temple offering ?
I agree we should keep the Sabbath, but how much liberty is granted now under the gospel ? Israel was meant to keep it as a nation as well. Their purpose in God's revelatory work is completed in Christ.
If we as Christians insist that all Sabbath laws still apply, then evey 7 years we should be taking a year off as a global kingdom.
Lev 25:3 For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits,
Lev 25:4 but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the LORD. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.
[Edited on 1-9-2006 by Saiph]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Mark,
That can be considered emergent; there was no other food available at the time for them.
That can be considered emergent; there was no other food available at the time for them.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
How much liberty? That will be an act of conscience. Emergent and acts of mercy are allowable.
Saiph
Puritan Board Junior
What do you mean by emergent ?
The most interesting thing in that passage is that Christ associates walking in a field picking grain, with going into the temple to eat consecrated bread.
hmmmm . . . . strange exegesis.
If they were sitting at a Starbuck's and the Pharisees came along, I think He would have said the same thing.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Things that are an emergency. The stove breaks, no milk for the baby, etc.
Davids situation was emergent; he had no other food. It was an act of neccesity that he partook of the priests meal.
Davids situation was emergent; he had no other food. It was an act of neccesity that he partook of the priests meal.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Christian liberty...
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
I believe the Christian Sabbath is to be observed from midnight to midnight , but we should prepare our hearts and our minds Saturday night before we wake up in the morning. In my family I like to have a Sabbath meal on Saturday night followed by Family Worship which includes reading the Scriptures, singing hymns and Psalms, teaching the catechism, and prayer.
Then on Sunday we attend Sabbath School, Morning Worship, we then have dinner with another church family (since we travel an hour and half for church) where we talk about God, the Scriptures, or the Sermon or someone gives their testimony. We then attend Evening Worship.
I believe the Fourth Commandment to be morally binding on all men in all ages. The fourth Commandment is both a moral law and a postive law. The moral law is one day in seven we are to worship the Lord. The postive law is which day of the week it is. The day itself is not moral and can be changed. But it can only be changed by God, which he did from the seventh day to the first day.
Christ repeated the fourth commandment in the New Testament many times. Matthew 12, which in Christ is called Lord of the Sabbath instead of ridding it he taught the right view of the Sabbath. The samething in Mark 2, and Luke 6. Hebrews chapter 4 tells us which of the Day of the week it is to be observed (For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.), which is the first day and it also tells us the there remains a Sabbath Day for the people of God. This passage also tells us that the Sabbath Day is looking forward to our eternal rest when we enter.
So if it is morally binding on all people and in all ages, how should one observe the Sabbath. Isaiah 58 gives us a perfect picture. " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;" We are to turn away from doing Our OWN PLEASURES, NOT doing our own ways, NOR speaking our own words, but to delight ourselves in the Lord. That means Corporate Worship. That also means not doing business, not playing sports (pleasure) nor watching sports, not speaking nor thinking our own taughts, but the WHOLE day to be given over to the Worship of the Lord. The Fourth Commandment forbids working on that Holy Day. Neither us nor our servents nor our families. Except what the Lord told us in the gospels for acts of mercy or the Ox in the ditch problem. That means Doctors, Nurses, and Police, etc can work. That does not mean the Doctor should schedule visits on Sunday, but he can save a life in an emergency. The whole Day is the Market Day for the Soul, lets spend it that way.
For those who say but I have to support my family, I understand, I really do. It is so hard in this day and age to support our families, but that does not mean you have to work on Sunday. I have had a good numerous jobs in my life since I was a teenager but I never had to work on Sunday, in being a manager. While I was being hired I always told them I could not work on Sunday and explained why. Most employers understand and they will work with you. Those that don't are breaking the law for deny our religious right, but maybe it is time to find another job that will let you please the Lord.
One last thing, The Scriptures tells us that the Commandments of the Lord is NOT burdensome. That also includes the fourth commandment. It is not burdensome, it really frees us, to worship our Lord and our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. So lets stop trying to make excuses for wanting to do our own ways and our own pleasures and let us serve the Lord.
As for me and my household, We Will serve the Lord.
Michael
The Reformed Baptist
Then on Sunday we attend Sabbath School, Morning Worship, we then have dinner with another church family (since we travel an hour and half for church) where we talk about God, the Scriptures, or the Sermon or someone gives their testimony. We then attend Evening Worship.
I believe the Fourth Commandment to be morally binding on all men in all ages. The fourth Commandment is both a moral law and a postive law. The moral law is one day in seven we are to worship the Lord. The postive law is which day of the week it is. The day itself is not moral and can be changed. But it can only be changed by God, which he did from the seventh day to the first day.
Christ repeated the fourth commandment in the New Testament many times. Matthew 12, which in Christ is called Lord of the Sabbath instead of ridding it he taught the right view of the Sabbath. The samething in Mark 2, and Luke 6. Hebrews chapter 4 tells us which of the Day of the week it is to be observed (For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.), which is the first day and it also tells us the there remains a Sabbath Day for the people of God. This passage also tells us that the Sabbath Day is looking forward to our eternal rest when we enter.
So if it is morally binding on all people and in all ages, how should one observe the Sabbath. Isaiah 58 gives us a perfect picture. " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;" We are to turn away from doing Our OWN PLEASURES, NOT doing our own ways, NOR speaking our own words, but to delight ourselves in the Lord. That means Corporate Worship. That also means not doing business, not playing sports (pleasure) nor watching sports, not speaking nor thinking our own taughts, but the WHOLE day to be given over to the Worship of the Lord. The Fourth Commandment forbids working on that Holy Day. Neither us nor our servents nor our families. Except what the Lord told us in the gospels for acts of mercy or the Ox in the ditch problem. That means Doctors, Nurses, and Police, etc can work. That does not mean the Doctor should schedule visits on Sunday, but he can save a life in an emergency. The whole Day is the Market Day for the Soul, lets spend it that way.
For those who say but I have to support my family, I understand, I really do. It is so hard in this day and age to support our families, but that does not mean you have to work on Sunday. I have had a good numerous jobs in my life since I was a teenager but I never had to work on Sunday, in being a manager. While I was being hired I always told them I could not work on Sunday and explained why. Most employers understand and they will work with you. Those that don't are breaking the law for deny our religious right, but maybe it is time to find another job that will let you please the Lord.
One last thing, The Scriptures tells us that the Commandments of the Lord is NOT burdensome. That also includes the fourth commandment. It is not burdensome, it really frees us, to worship our Lord and our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. So lets stop trying to make excuses for wanting to do our own ways and our own pleasures and let us serve the Lord.
As for me and my household, We Will serve the Lord.
Michael
The Reformed Baptist
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Michael,
Excellent first post!
Welcome aboard.
Excellent first post!
Welcome aboard.
Saiph
Puritan Board Junior
A few questions then:
So was that on a lunar calendar or solar calendar ?
So should not all christians around the world take every 7 years off ? And when does that start ?
Not trying to be contentious, but every sabbatarian I know forsakes the 7th year AND jubilee. But they never tell me why.
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by Saiph]
So was that on a lunar calendar or solar calendar ?
So should not all christians around the world take every 7 years off ? And when does that start ?
Not trying to be contentious, but every sabbatarian I know forsakes the 7th year AND jubilee. But they never tell me why.
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by Saiph]
Henry from Canada
Puritan Board Freshman
Question:
I suffer from a chronic illness. I stretch and exercise whenever I have the energy. I try to do this every day - if possible.
If I do not do so, I will not die, however, my muscles may become tighter and weaker.
Question: Is stretching and exercising prohibited on the Sabbath in the Bible?
Well, Scott said, "Emergent and acts of mercy are allowable." Well, I am afraid exercise on the Sabbath is not emergent or an act of mercy. If I do not exercise on the Sabbath, I will not die. Just like the Jews would not die if they did not work on the Sabbath.
So I guess if I want to follow WCF guidelines, I should not exercise on the Sabbath.
On the other hand, I believe Jesus said something about it being right to do good on the Sabbath. For example, He said He was right to heal a man on the Sabbath. (This has to do with the new covenant.)
There are big advantages to stretching and exercising on the Sabbath:
- makes it easier to sleep Sunday night
- makes it easier to loosen up on Monday
- makes it easier to keep up the "habit of exercise," which is incredibly important
- makes it safer for me to get around
- makes it easier to stay at 6' and 155 lbs.
None of this advantages, however, is "emergent." I can live without Sabbath exercise. But from a health perspective, Sabbath exercise is "good."
Big Question:
How many people here think that I should forgo exercise on the Sabbath?
This is an absolutely fascinating topic. I spent about 5 hours researching this yesterday. I never fully appreciated how "divisive" this issue was in church history. It really shows how theology divides.
Oh man, I said I was leaving this thread. I am such a liar, I know, I know
I suffer from a chronic illness. I stretch and exercise whenever I have the energy. I try to do this every day - if possible.
If I do not do so, I will not die, however, my muscles may become tighter and weaker.
Question: Is stretching and exercising prohibited on the Sabbath in the Bible?
Well, Scott said, "Emergent and acts of mercy are allowable." Well, I am afraid exercise on the Sabbath is not emergent or an act of mercy. If I do not exercise on the Sabbath, I will not die. Just like the Jews would not die if they did not work on the Sabbath.
So I guess if I want to follow WCF guidelines, I should not exercise on the Sabbath.
On the other hand, I believe Jesus said something about it being right to do good on the Sabbath. For example, He said He was right to heal a man on the Sabbath. (This has to do with the new covenant.)
There are big advantages to stretching and exercising on the Sabbath:
- makes it easier to sleep Sunday night
- makes it easier to loosen up on Monday
- makes it easier to keep up the "habit of exercise," which is incredibly important
- makes it safer for me to get around
- makes it easier to stay at 6' and 155 lbs.
None of this advantages, however, is "emergent." I can live without Sabbath exercise. But from a health perspective, Sabbath exercise is "good."
Big Question:
How many people here think that I should forgo exercise on the Sabbath?
This is an absolutely fascinating topic. I spent about 5 hours researching this yesterday. I never fully appreciated how "divisive" this issue was in church history. It really shows how theology divides.
Oh man, I said I was leaving this thread. I am such a liar, I know, I know
Henry from Canada
Puritan Board Freshman
Second question:
Almost all writings would seem to suggest that Calvin had Sabbath views similar to Scott.
I am confused about Luther. Did Luther share the dominant view here that Sabbath work should only be emergent and acts of mercy?
Almost all writings would seem to suggest that Calvin had Sabbath views similar to Scott.
I am confused about Luther. Did Luther share the dominant view here that Sabbath work should only be emergent and acts of mercy?
tdowns
Puritan Board Junior
excercise
Exercising is resting the body, it rejuvenates it, it relaxes the mind, it draws me to think of God. God gave us a body, and taking good care of it is important, if we were called to fast every Lord's day, then maybe we should not exercise either, but food is good for the body, and exercise is good for the body, mind and spirit in my opinion. Now, doing hard core training for a marathon or something, maybe too much and considered work, but a short jog, so it's not "work", I think exercise for the sake of keeping the body healthy would not be considered "work" at all. My uneducated two cents.
I mean if somebody would say no to you, I hope they are not taking a walk, or strolling along with a pipe, because walking is exercise--and good exercise at that!
Be well!!!!!
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by tdowns007]
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by tdowns007]
Exercising is resting the body, it rejuvenates it, it relaxes the mind, it draws me to think of God. God gave us a body, and taking good care of it is important, if we were called to fast every Lord's day, then maybe we should not exercise either, but food is good for the body, and exercise is good for the body, mind and spirit in my opinion. Now, doing hard core training for a marathon or something, maybe too much and considered work, but a short jog, so it's not "work", I think exercise for the sake of keeping the body healthy would not be considered "work" at all. My uneducated two cents.
I mean if somebody would say no to you, I hope they are not taking a walk, or strolling along with a pipe, because walking is exercise--and good exercise at that!
Be well!!!!!
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by tdowns007]
[Edited on 1-10-2006 by tdowns007]
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