Separation from the world
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DeborahtheJudge
Puritan Board Freshman
I believe that just as God transforms pagans into believers, He transforms the creation (even originally pagan forms of music).
I also believe redeemed culture builds community with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I also believe redeemed culture builds community with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
At what point does a formation of notes and rhythms lose any chance of glorifying God? Is it when the music induces foot-tapping?
I think it would be truer to say He is able to transform them. We'd better not assume he has done it. He is able to transform pagans into believers but for his own good purposes he leaves many as pagans.
I totally agree that redeemed culture, if it truly is so, builds community like nothing else!
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I just listened to this. They make some excellent points. Thanks
---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------
I would like to add that I think so often we are quick to defend our point of view rather than filtering our point of view through Scripture. In other words, we are seeing things through our eyes only rather than asking God to help us see things as He seems them. Jesus, as our example, lived in the world, and yet was not taken in by the foolishness of the world. Yet He managed to enjoy what was going on around Him without partcipating in the sin of it.
In other words, I think many times we indulge in the sin of our culture and excuse ourselves, not realizing that it's doing its damage on us.
For example, we can walk into a bar and sit down and have a drink and talk with someone and not sin, but we can get drunk or start telling filthy joikes and excuse ourselves because "it's not wrong to drink." or "it's not wrong to have a good laugh."
It's fuzzier with music, because when it comes to the music itself, it's arguable about what is good or bad. Lyrics are a clear indication, and personally, I draw the line at the lyrics which in many styles of music are highly offensive.
Kiffin
Puritan Board Freshman
Aww, the music debate... I still think Romans 14 applies to music. Some people were just "eating" food and others thought they were participating in "idol worship." There is nothing inherently evil in sounds just like there is nothing inherently evil in food. Sounds are signs that can be interpreted differently by different people. This is the situation addressed in Romans 14. The same situation (eating of meat) was seen by everyone, but it was interpreted differently by everyone. Thus, when it comes to "rock music", some people interpret it as "evil Satan music" where as others interpret it simply as "just another type of music." Let's grow in grace my brethren..
rbcbob
Puritan Board Graduate
Growing in grace is just the point of this thread brother. Have you read through the posts?
Kiffin
Puritan Board Freshman
More like skim. Did I miss something that should hinder me from saying "Let's grow in grace"?
jayce475
Puritan Board Freshman
Semantics. We need to grow in grace in the way we convey our ideas, and we need to as grow in grace in seeking holiness. But if "growing in grace" means compromising on biblical separation, to me that's not growing, but regressing.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
I've not posted in this thread yet. I did post in the thread that spawned this thread. I am very attuned musically. I grew up surrounded by music, am moved deeply by music, and have VERY wide tastes of appreciation. In the past few years I have had to realise that my tastes and appreciation may not necessarily honour God. The very concerts that I mentioned in the other thread I would now not attend. I used to enjoy them. Now, the thought of them and my interaction with them bothers me. Yes, it takes a great deal of skill to play guitar like Eddie VanHalen. Yes, Southern Rock can put some rhythms and harmonies together in such a way that it can make good bumps crawl up my back. Hearing a skilled tenor sing an aria can send my spirit soaring. There are certain symphonic pieces that can move me powerfully. Music is power. Note that I did not say music has power. It is power. There is almost nothing on earth that can elicit such strong reaction from a man as music.
Playing live bluegrass is one of my greatest joys. There is nothing like standing in a jam circle and just FEELING the chords lock as you play. But, even bluegrass has songs I cannot play. There are certain operas to which I can no longer listen. There are bands in the rock, jazz, CCM, country, and other genres that should be avoided, I think, simply because of what they are trying to do with the musical gifts that they have been given. That is not legalism. It is discernment. All too often we try to find justification for the things we enjoy that may be very close to the line, or over the line, of dishonouring our creator. It is almost as if we are five year olds trying to see just how much we can get away with doing without incurring the wrath of our parents.
Music is a gift from God. I communicates with something within us at a very deep level. Something as powerful as that should be treated with care.
Playing live bluegrass is one of my greatest joys. There is nothing like standing in a jam circle and just FEELING the chords lock as you play. But, even bluegrass has songs I cannot play. There are certain operas to which I can no longer listen. There are bands in the rock, jazz, CCM, country, and other genres that should be avoided, I think, simply because of what they are trying to do with the musical gifts that they have been given. That is not legalism. It is discernment. All too often we try to find justification for the things we enjoy that may be very close to the line, or over the line, of dishonouring our creator. It is almost as if we are five year olds trying to see just how much we can get away with doing without incurring the wrath of our parents.
Music is a gift from God. I communicates with something within us at a very deep level. Something as powerful as that should be treated with care.
rbcbob
Puritan Board Graduate
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Let me throw a hot coal into the mix. Some of the worst stuff to sing along to is genred as Christian music. It is self centered, self glorifying, self aggrandizing....all in the name of Christ. This stuff is the most deceiving because it promotes idolatry in the name of Jesus. At least we know the stuff from Ozzy, Mick and Elton is from the world, the sharp razor needs to be applied to so called Christian radio/recordings.
BTW I was a avid concert goer before conversion. My memories of these events are just that....memories. I can give ratings and preferences on that just as on autos, refrigerators, toothpaste. By saying someone is a good musician or lyricist(poet) in no way do I account godliness to them, just that they excel at what they do. I wish that all of those who excel at these things would do it ALL for the glory of God, through the new birth.
BTW I was a avid concert goer before conversion. My memories of these events are just that....memories. I can give ratings and preferences on that just as on autos, refrigerators, toothpaste. By saying someone is a good musician or lyricist(poet) in no way do I account godliness to them, just that they excel at what they do. I wish that all of those who excel at these things would do it ALL for the glory of God, through the new birth.
AC.
Puritan Board Freshman
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
But that's just it, I don't think we can come up with an example of Christ actively participating in "the world". He was indeed an observer to the culture that was going on about Him, but he was not a part of 1st century AD "pop culture". He was drawing souls out of it, but he was not part and parcel of it as a participant. So much of the simple act of participation in the popular culture is completely counter-Christian, I don't know how someone can ever get their head around "going with the flow" as harmless.
What is pervasive in the culture of today? Materialism. Self-worship. Chasing after vanity in its numerous manifestations.
"Hey, what's Brangelina up to today?"
"Hmm, I don't know. They haven't twitted about anything in over 18 hours."
"I read in Cosmo last week that they were splitting up. But that issue has been out for over a week now. Who knows what they're up to now..."
"Oh, there was an article in that issue about the new 64G ipod that not only surfs the web and records full technicolor video, it also blah blah blah blah."
"I know! The 32 gigabyte model is so five minutes ago. I wouldn't use it in public if my life depended on it."
Yada yada yada. Thus pass the days of worldly existence numbers 5,654,325,437 and 5,654,325,438. No thank you.
Christ came into the World to redeem souls out of it, not to passively marinate in it.
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puritanhope
Puritan Board Freshman
For those who currently listen to "rock music" you may consider this documentary: Hell's Bells 2: The Spirit of Popular Music. It's done by the same gents that did Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism. It may seem pricey, but keep in mind it's 370 minutes long. Here are the reviews on Amazon, however, in this case it's cheaper to buy directly from the Apologetics Group.
As for me and my house, we are now purged of this god hating, self glorifying filth.
As for me and my house, we are now purged of this god hating, self glorifying filth.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Excellent!
AC.
Puritan Board Freshman
I'm 36 years young....
Rock music is my achilles....I've had no problem shunning the secular (i.e. Van Halen, Foo Fighters, etc.) and I go through periods where I listen to nothing but classical or phil keaggy instrumentals....but after a while I go back to craving the rocking guitars and driving beats of the rock genre, only now I gravitate towards the cleaner and more God-centered lyrics of Switchfoot and Relient K.....but at the end of the day it's probably all the same....when I listen to rock music I am not filled with humility and calm but rather adrenaline. I may feel good about the message but I don't know if the reaction triggered by the music helps my walk with Christ and Christian endeavors rather it probably serves as a barrier and distraction...something I'm wrestling with.....
good topic!
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------
Hi puritanhope,
does the dvd deal with Christian rock too, I was a little hesitant to pick it up...the cover looks a little disturbing...I do own 2 dvd's from the apologetics group and they are excellent...the one on Calvin and 'the real Jesus'
Rock music is my achilles....I've had no problem shunning the secular (i.e. Van Halen, Foo Fighters, etc.) and I go through periods where I listen to nothing but classical or phil keaggy instrumentals....but after a while I go back to craving the rocking guitars and driving beats of the rock genre, only now I gravitate towards the cleaner and more God-centered lyrics of Switchfoot and Relient K.....but at the end of the day it's probably all the same....when I listen to rock music I am not filled with humility and calm but rather adrenaline. I may feel good about the message but I don't know if the reaction triggered by the music helps my walk with Christ and Christian endeavors rather it probably serves as a barrier and distraction...something I'm wrestling with.....
good topic!
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------
Hi puritanhope,
does the dvd deal with Christian rock too, I was a little hesitant to pick it up...the cover looks a little disturbing...I do own 2 dvd's from the apologetics group and they are excellent...the one on Calvin and 'the real Jesus'
Dr. Bob Gonzales
Puritan Board Junior
"Worldliness" is simply another term for sin (see 1 John 2:15-17). Sin is, in turn, defined by Scripture and Scripture alone. I fear that many who label certain things like music genres "worldly" do so on the basis of personal opinion or preference rather than grounding their censure in Scripture alone. For a definition of "worldliness" and some practical ramifications, see What In the World Is Worldliness?: Providing Some Biblical Clarity on a Misused Term.
Your servant,
Your servant,
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rbcbob
Puritan Board Graduate
Dear Doctor,
Perhaps, at this late entry into this particular discussion, you have not availed yourself of the opportunity to read through the many posts herein. To assume at this juncture that the serious and earnest wrestlings of the participants have muddled on in ignorance of the relevance that worldliness has to Rock Music is unfortunate.
In a related thread I posted the following, added here for your perusal.
Titus 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly (κοσμικας) lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
We need to understand “worldly” in context. The Greek word for world κοσμος has many meanings. Pertinent to this discussion I would take Thayers definitions #6 and 7.
The world- κοσμος
6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; 14:27 (John 17:27); 15:18f; 16:8,20,33; 17:9, 14f 25; 1 Cor. 1:21; 6:2; 11:32; 2 Cor. 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 5:9; 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:20; 1 John 3:1,13; 4:5; 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Heb. 11:38; in Noah's time, …, John 8:23; 15:19; 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;… to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; …
7. "worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ": Gal. 6:14; 1 John 2:16f; 3:17; ……..
John 17:16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world.
Now the apostles, when they warned against THE WORLD or WORLDLINESS did not give a lengthy qualification as to which of the many senses that κοσμος they were using it. They fully expected their readers to understand.
Similarly we need to understand which sense applies to the discussion at hand. The Scriptures plainly warn us against the world and worldliness. There is obviously an objective, recognizable content to the thing which we are warned to shun.
I have stated in the post on Separation from the World :
Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
• Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
• where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
• where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
• where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
• where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures
Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?
The worldliness of which the Scripture warns is patently part and parcel in the “world of Rock n’ Roll.
To deny this is to be disingenuous.
And from post #72 in this thread you might consider the following:
J.C. Ryle in his classic work HOLINESS says
“There are many real children of God who appear to know far more than they live up to, and see far more than they practice, and yet continue in this state for many years. …
These are they who get the notion into their minds, that it is impossible for all believers to be so very holy and very spiritual! They allow that eminent holiness is a beautiful thing. They like to read about it in books, and even to see it occasionally in others. But they do not think that all are meant to aim at so high a standard. At any rate, they seem to make up their minds it is beyond their reach. …
These are they who are always trying to keep in with the world. They are ingenious in discovering reasons for not separating decidedly, and in framing plausible excuses for attending questionable amusements, and keeping up questionable friendships.”
I believe that Ryle, here, expresses a kindred spirit with the Puritans.
Was there was such a thing as "pop culture" back then? I would distinguish both folk culture and high culture from "pop culture", and it's difficult to imagine "pop culture" without capitalism and a certain level of technology; or perhaps it's just that "pop culture" from every epoch is the most ephemeral production, and therefore, until our days, the least likely to be preserved. Anyway, I don't mean to disrail the thread - just wondering if "pop culture" really has an analogue in the distant past (though I suppose paid but essentially shallow performers and producers are pretty much a constant of city life).
Kiffin
Puritan Board Freshman
But once again, this only represents a segment of "rock music."
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
I guess by 'pop culture' I am referring as much to the general entertainment/gossip/accepted norms of the day as anything else. For instance, I recall hearing that while Shakespeare was alive, and his plays were being performed at the Globe theatre in London, the most popular entertainment of the day was still bear-baiting. The bear-baiting I would thus count as part of the 'pop culture' of that day, but would likely also throw Shakespeare's plays into the mix. Whatever makes up the secular distraction mosaic of the day for the common man, would, under this definition, be considered part of the 'pop culture'.
buggy
Puritan Board Freshman
It has dawned to me after reading Col. 3 that the key to fighting worldliness is to set our affections on the Lord Himself, but more importantly to give thanks to everything that God have given to us.
There are too many things today where we take for granted. Many of us remember to give thanks to God before we eat. But how about extending it to other areas - be it work, leisure, spouse, children, friends, or anything? And it's not just paying lip service by saying "thanks". If we truly appreciate and are thankful to whatever God has given to us, we will treasure it and use them more wisely without setting our affection on them, knowing that the same God who gave us these gifts may take them away anytime and that He has a purpose for giving them to us.
Thanksgiving reminds us who is really in charge of our life and is thus a very powerful weapon against worldliness, and pride of Man - the root of worldliness. I believe we should think of this when we talk about "separation".
There are too many things today where we take for granted. Many of us remember to give thanks to God before we eat. But how about extending it to other areas - be it work, leisure, spouse, children, friends, or anything? And it's not just paying lip service by saying "thanks". If we truly appreciate and are thankful to whatever God has given to us, we will treasure it and use them more wisely without setting our affection on them, knowing that the same God who gave us these gifts may take them away anytime and that He has a purpose for giving them to us.
Thanksgiving reminds us who is really in charge of our life and is thus a very powerful weapon against worldliness, and pride of Man - the root of worldliness. I believe we should think of this when we talk about "separation".
jayce475
Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Dr Bob,
Could you then provide some clear guidelines on what kind of biblical separation you would prescribe to your churchmen? Does it purely take place at the heart level and should a young believer be given the liberty to enjoy any aspect of pop culture he likes as long as he attempts to do so with God in mind regardless of how spiritually insensitive and undiscerning he is?
You have pretty much written off Ps Peter Masters as promoting unbiblical legalism on the basis of your different understand of biblical separation from him without actually giving a full treatment on why your form of biblical separation differs from his. If you would be willing to give an article treating what biblical separation really means from your perspective, then the true differences between those whom you deem to be "fundamentalist" and "legalistic" and those as yourself may then be made much clearer.
That effectively blurs any distinction between various forms of culture, and so makes the "pop" prefix rather unnecessary.
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