Separation from the world

[kvanlaan]

That effectively blurs any distinction between various forms of culture, and so makes the "pop" prefix rather unnecessary.

I used the example of the bear-baiting/Shakespeare because the common man participated in both. The pit at the Globe was filled with 'groundlings', common folk who paid a penny to participate in otherwise high-brow Shakespearean plays. It was a 'popular' distraction for all classes.

Thus I'm not sure if I am guilty of superfluousness or imprecision (or both), but if we use this as a general idea of pop culture...

Popular culture (commonly known as pop culture) is the totality of ideas, perspectives, attitudes, memes,[1] images and other phenomena that are deemed preferred per an informal consensus within the mainstream of a given culture, specifically Western culture of the early to mid 20th century and the emerging global mainstream of the late 20th to 21st century. Heavily influenced by mass media, this collection of ideas permeates the everyday lives of the society. By contrast, folklore refers to the cultural mainstream of more local or pre-industrial societies.

...then I guess I'm off. But the concept still stands. Christ lived as a Jew, that much is true, but followed the Law as it should be followed, not following it as a Pharisaical Jew. Thus I think an argument can still be made for Christ living outside of Jewish culture on several levels - and that was His own culture, never mind Roman or Greek. We simply don't see Him 'in the trenches' of secular society - He was above that, and went into the World to redeem and witness, not to hang out.

For instance, though we never see Christ eating 'unclean' animals, we see a vision to Peter that made it clear that this element of Jewish culture was not necessary. Thus I would say we can tie this to Christ being outside of the prevailing culture even on this level. He ate with Zaccheus, who had just climbed a tree whose fruit was fed to pigs, and was thus ceremonially unclean (and was a tax collector anyway). Were he living as per the accepted culture of his day, he would not have done so. These are just a couple of aspects of the argument (among others), but I think that we can safely say that He divorced Himself from the prevailing culture.

 

[rbcbob]

Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
• Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
• where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
• where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
• where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
• where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures

But once again, this only represents a segment of "rock music."

My brief descriptives are, as a rule, intrinsic to Rock as a genre. There can be exceptions. But it is of the very nature of exceptions to stand out from the general rule.

 

[jayce475]

After reading the thread on legalism and gaining a better understanding of it, I am convinced there should not be any charges of legalism being laid in this thread when many of us express our views against pop culture and rock music. It's never about binding anyone's conscience, but rather honouring God in the best way that we understand scriptures command us to. Ultimately, it's a doctrinal issue with regards to the application of biblical separation and there's little agreement between the two sides on how exactly biblical separation from the world ought to take place.

 

[BradyC]

Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.

The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.

In Christ,
Brady

 

[rbcbob]

Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.

The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.

In Christ,
Brady

Brady,
Brother I must say that such a response is indicative of a naiveté in regards to both one's own heart as well as the responsibility of the body of Christ to one another.

Love God and do as you please !?!

Proverbs 28:26 26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

And what of the imperatives in the NT telling Christians to help one another in the way of holiness?

Hebrews 10:23-25 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Romans 15:14 Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[BradyC]

Brady,
Brother I must say that such a response is indicative of a naiveté in regards to both one's own heart as well as the responsibility of the body of Christ to one another.

I am sorry that you feel my response is naïve. I assure you I know the nature of my own heart’s wickedness and the specific areas that are difficult for me, hence the reason I create boundaries for myself as well. However, I do not force them on other believers who do not struggle with those temptations. My responsibility to the body of Christ is to help them grow in holiness which may include helping others set certain boundaries in areas where they are weak…however my responsibility is not to dictate what is law and what is not.

Love God and do as you please !?!

Proverbs 28:26 26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

I am not sure exactly what you are inferring from Augustine’s statement, but by your bolding his statement, excessive use of exclamation marks and proof-texting a verse, I surmise it is something negative.

And what of the imperatives in the NT telling Christians to help one another in the way of holiness?

Hebrews 10:23-25 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Romans 15:14 Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Bob, I am glad that you are pursuing personal holiness, and that you are creating boundaries for yourself and are sensitive to those boundaries. If they are helping you grow in the knowledge of the Lord and keeping you from temptation than I am grateful and would encourage you to keep doing so. However, just realize that not everyone shares the same convictions over these matters.

 

[jayce475]

Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.

The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.

In Christ,
Brady

Brady, perhaps you would like to take a closer look at the responses first. This is a caricature of our position.

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

Bob and Jason,

I'm afraid I find myself if agreement with Brady. He hit the nail on the head, and I've yet to hear a persuasive rebuttal to his remarks. In reply to Bob's comments:

(1) I don't deny that the lyrics and lifestyle of many rock-n-roll musicians is sub-biblical and, therefore, not commendable. However, the lyrics and lifestyle of many Christian artists who employ the rock genre are biblical and commendable. Consequently, to censure unqualifiedly the rock genre as "worldly" is a genetic fallacy and betrays a tenuous "guilt by association" argument.

(2) Even if one grants that the lyrics and lifestyle of much rock-n-roll music is sub- or anti-Christian, that doesn't necessitate complete isolation. A strong case could be made that the vast majority of TV shows and movies are sub- or anti-biblical (indeed, one might legitimately argue that TV has ruined more lives than music), but I rarely hear Reformed pastors demanding that their congregations jettison their TV sets in order to practice "biblical separation." Biblical discernment, not isolationism, is what's needed.

(3) Weaker brothers may, because of a scrupulous conscience or because of the lack of spiritual maturity, need to avoid certain activities that would become stumbling blocks to them. Accordingly, they are free to formulate "personal standards," which may be provisional and circumstantial. But to universalize one's personal standards in order to bind the consciences of all other believers violates biblical principle and is a form of legalism and man-made religion.

(4) I once worshiped at the idol of Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, and Van Halen. I how see these bands for what they are. I reject much of the philosophy behind their lyrics. But the doctrine of the imago Dei and common grace has helped me appreciate the musical talent in secular bands. Consequently, I now can enjoy the music of Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and even Jimmy Hendrix much like I enjoy what's commendable in Star Wars while rejecting what's anti-Christian. I don't buy into the the sinful philosophy of these rock bands anymore than I endorse "the force." But I think I'm mature enough to separate the chaff from the wheat. If you guys feel you lack that maturity, then by all means play it safe and refrain. But don't erect your extra-biblical fence in your neighbor's backyard. Before his Master he will stand or fall.

Cordially,

 

[kvanlaan]

Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.

That's not it at all. Living in a monastery prevents you from fulfilling the great commission. As a community of believers, no one is advocating that. But give me Christ, not culture. Show me where Christ partook of the culture in a purely recreational way. Can you? I don't think it's there. We go into the World to witness, not to hang out. Whether you like to admit it or not, your interaction with the World in terms of the music/TV/movies you partake of leave you "spotted", a la James 1:27. Yes, it is just a little at a time, you probably don't even notice it. But in doing so, you are likely standing in the slippery places, though you do not know it. Such a position needs only your own weight to bring you down. Think well on it, and accept this advice not as binding your conscience to control you, but to warn you in brotherly love; that's all it is. Those who take up the opposite position to you are not trying to put you on a diet of Mournful Oatmeal (Calvinism in a Box) and take all fun from your life. No, we've instead seen the devil and want you to know that he's right behind the next song/film and he will take you down if you aren't careful.

We weaker brothers must be waded through on your way to the misty mountain top. It might serve to stop to listen every once in a while, though...

 

[jayce475]

Bob and Jason,

I'm afraid I find myself if agreement with Brady. He hit the nail on the head, and I've yet to hear a persuasive rebuttal to his remarks. In reply to Bob's comments:

(1) I don't deny that the lyrics and lifestyle of many rock-n-roll musicians is sub-biblical and, therefore, not commendable. However, the lyrics and lifestyle of many Christian artists who employ the rock genre are biblical and commendable. Consequently, to censure unqualifiedly the rock genre as "worldly" is a genetic fallacy and betrays a tenuous "guilt by association" argument.

(2) Even if one grants that the lyrics and lifestyle of much rock-n-roll music is sub- or anti-Christian, that doesn't necessitate complete isolation. A strong case could be made that the vast majority of TV shows and movies are sub- or anti-biblical (indeed, one might legitimately argue that TV has ruined more lives than music), but I rarely hear Reformed pastors demanding that their congregations jettison their TV sets in order to practice "biblical separation." Biblical discernment, not isolationism, is what's needed.

(3) Weaker brothers may, because of a scrupulous conscience or because of the lack of spiritual maturity, need to avoid certain activities that would become stumbling blocks to them. Accordingly, they are free to formulate "personal standards," which may be provisional and circumstantial. But to universalize one's personal standards in order to bind the consciences of all other believers violates biblical principle and is a form of legalism and man-made religion.

(4) I once worshiped at the idol of Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, and Van Halen. I how see these bands for what they are. I reject much of the philosophy behind their lyrics. But the doctrine of the imago Dei and common grace has helped me appreciate the musical talent in secular bands. Consequently, I now can enjoy the music of Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and even Jimmy Hendrix much like I enjoy what's commendable in Star Wars while rejecting what's anti-Christian. I don't buy into the the sinful philosophy of these rock bands anymore than I endorse "the force." But I think I'm mature enough to separate the chaff from the wheat. If you guys feel you lack that maturity, then by all means play it safe and refrain. But don't erect your extra-biblical fence in your neighbor's backyard. Before his Master he will stand or fall.

Cordially,

Hi Dr Bob,

We are all presenting the same arguments over and over again and what you've added is pretty much also similar. Biblical separation as defined by one side is condemned by the other as legalism, conscience-binding and man-made laws, while the biblical separation advocated by the other side is deemed by the former to be dangerous and carnal. The Puritans are not infallible, but I do think that they have it more right than many others in their battles for holiness. Perhaps we should rest our respective cases in this thread and let the hearers be prayerfully convicted of what the truth is by themselves.

 

[rbcbob]

Perhaps we should rest our respective cases in this thread and let the hearers be prayerfully convicted of what the truth is by themselves.

I agree

 

[Herald]

This thread has gone the way of all things.