Should we pray with Arminians?

[Scott Bushey]

So, Scott, what is it about "praying with others" that makes you guilty of agreeing in toto with their theology? Do you have a questionnaire that you go through, point by point, to make sure they don't have any heterodox beliefs, before you allow yourself to bend the knee with them?

Are you guilty of sin when you lead a group in prayer that contains a believer who holds a heretical specific?

We're not talking about 'agreeing in toto' with one's theology but praying with heretics. There's a difference between error and heresy. Arminianism is heresy (see definition embedded above). Why would anyone want to pray w/ a Jehovah's Witness?

I generally pray w/ my family and extended family on holidays; I make sure my prayer clearly defines the who and why. Since the majority of my family is unsaved and non covenantal, they do not hear the idiosyncrasies embedded in my prayer excluding them. it is my responsibility to handle the word of God rightfully. This is not to say that Tina and I do not pray regularly for their salvation; we do!

 

[Scott Bushey]

A possible scenario if we agree with Scott:



THE DYING MAN, THE ARMINIAN WIFE AND THE NARROW CALVINIST: A play in one act


SCENE ONE: A five-pointer (hypothetically his name is Bob) visits the family of a dying man in a hospital room

[various beeps..stage is white...].

Narrator: This dying man is a full-fledged card-carrying calvinist too...but his wife is not. She believes in free will but says that she has trusted in Christ to be her saviour and Lord and she loves a life of Bible study.

She attends the OPC with her husband but 'just doesn't know all that theological stuff...".

She says that she knows that we are saved through grace alone through the work of Christ and all we have to do is to believe this to be saved. When she prayed for salvation she prayed, "Oh Lord, save me from my sins..."

Then, the Arminian wife of the dying man asks Bob..let's pick it up there...


Arminian wife: "Oh, my husband is dying [beep...bepp...beep..beep... of the respirator in the background]..won't you pray with me for him..."

Bob: "Sorry...no can do....I want to glorify God by not associating with your type..."

Arminian wife: I know I do not know as much as you - oh great Puritan Imitator - but I desire for you to pray with me here for the health of my husband.."

Bob: "I take my theology very seriously and I cannot lower myself to pray for one who believes in works righteousness..."

Arminian wife: "But I trusted in Christ and I am praying for him to save me and take me to heaven... I do not believe in works righteousness.."

Bob: Oh, but your sytem leads to it...[with drama] Madame, you are a Pelagian!"

Arminian Wife: A pelajjiooo..what? What is that? I trust in Christ alone for my salvation even if I accepted him during an altar call and you didn't... and I trust him now.

..Please, please Oh Great Calvinist Doctrine Expert, pray with me for my poor husband..."

Bob: Sorry, I can have no fellowship with the works of darkness..."



[beep....beep......BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...as the man dies..."


CURTAINS CLOSE





Praying WITH someone is not agreeing with them nor endorsing their beliefs. I fear many hear would sacrifices exhibitions of Christian love over some silly misconception of doctrinal purity.

The above scenario is ridiculous based upon the definition provided in this thread between error and heresy. Obviously this dear woman is not a heretic. Trevor, please read the thread in it's entirety before posting such stuff. The post previous to yours states that I pray for those who need prayer, so I have no idea where you got that from. Have you read the thread?

I will again clarify for everyone. I have said this many times in many threads:

Arminianism is heresy. Arminians are heretics! Heresy damns! I have never met an Arminian

Lets go another route: Who should we not pray with and why?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Okay.....


Change the name "Arminian Wife" to Tim Lehaye and of course change the character of the dying man to a dying woman).

Now, how do you respond to my scenario since you have seemed to already have called him a heretic....

I would pray for their salvation, that if it pleased God that he would give them light. That if it pleased the Lord, if He chose, to let them see His truth, truth that sets one free from heresy............

There is a great difference between with and for.

 

[Scott Bushey]

There are people God does not want us to even pray for:

Jeremiah 7:9-16 9 "Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'-- that you may do all these abominations? 11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD. 12 "But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I made My name dwell at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel. 13 "And now, because you have done all these things," declares the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer, 14 therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15 "And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim. 16 "As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you.

Matthew 5:44 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you

Reconcile the above

 

[beej6]

My former pastor once went to an interfaith pastors' conference, one local to his church. Mostly professing Christians, some non-Christians too. After hearing some of the heretical prayers of the so-called Christian clergy there, it was his turn to pray and he basically prayed that God would have mercy on the group for praying heresies. They still invite him, but I don't think he goes back to that conference

 

[MrMerlin777]

I've got a question. Does belief in free will necessitate Arminianism?

And please answer my question with a plain self thought out answer. No quotes from the WCF or the Cannons of Dordt please. (Great as those two documents are)


Even George Whitfield great evangelist and Calvinist that he was, believed John Westley, a free willer, was his brother in Christ.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Belief in "free will" is dangerous but I personally (meaning based on no other document or direct teaching from another man) that those who believe in free will ignorantly are simply in error. However, once presented with the truth of the scripture in regard to that nonsense, if still you stubbornly insist that man has "free will" you are lost in your sin. Not that you then may never learn the truth, but at that moment you are lost, rejecting plain biblical truth for the teaching of men.

I was once there. I believe the Lord was working on me, taking me where He willed, but I now believe that while I was a stubborn believer in mans free will (over God's!!!!) I was not "saved" because I believed I was saved because of what I did. I believe I wasn't saved because I believed in a god who was limitted by his creation.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

A possible scenario if we agree with Scott:



THE DYING MAN, THE ARMINIAN WIFE AND THE NARROW CALVINIST: A play in one act


SCENE ONE: A five-pointer (hypothetically his name is Bob) visits the family of a dying man in a hospital room

[various beeps..stage is white...].

Narrator: This dying man is a full-fledged card-carrying calvinist too...but his wife is not. She believes in free will but says that she has trusted in Christ to be her saviour and Lord and she loves a life of Bible study.

She attends the OPC with her husband but 'just doesn't know all that theological stuff...".

She says that she knows that we are saved through grace alone through the work of Christ and all we have to do is to believe this to be saved. When she prayed for salvation she prayed, "Oh Lord, save me from my sins..."

Then, the Arminian wife of the dying man asks Bob..let's pick it up there...


Arminian wife: "Oh, my husband is dying [beep...bepp...beep..beep... of the respirator in the background]..won't you pray with me for him..."

Bob: "Sorry...no can do....I want to glorify God by not associating with your type..."

Arminian wife: I know I do not know as much as you - oh great Puritan Imitator - but I desire for you to pray with me here for the health of my husband.."

Bob: "I take my theology very seriously and I cannot lower myself to pray for one who believes in works righteousness..."

Arminian wife: "But I trusted in Christ and I am praying for him to save me and take me to heaven... I do not believe in works righteousness.."

Bob: Oh, but your sytem leads to it...[with drama] Madame, you are a Pelagian!"

Arminian Wife: A pelajjiooo..what? What is that? I trust in Christ alone for my salvation even if I accepted him during an altar call and you didn't... and I trust him now.

..Please, please Oh Great Calvinist Doctrine Expert, pray with me for my poor husband..."

Bob: Sorry, I can have no fellowship with the works of darkness..."



[beep....beep......BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...as the man dies..."


CURTAINS CLOSE





Praying WITH someone is not agreeing with them nor endorsing their beliefs. I fear many hear would sacrifices exhibitions of Christian love over some silly misconception of doctrinal purity.

That was good brother! That was good!

 

[Scott Bushey]

That was good brother! That was good!

You may think it's 'good' but it was irrelevant to the discussion based upon the previous posts. People need to either read the thread or hold their tongue.

 

[Arch2k]

That was good brother! That was good!

You may think it's 'good' but it was irrelevant to the discussion based upon the previous posts. People need to either read the thread or hold their tongue.

Not only that, it is an appeal to pity. The same situation can be turned on its head to show its absurdity. What if the wife is a wiccian? Would you pray with her Treveor? Would you pray with a Jehovah's witness? Maybe one of the Waco Texas cult leaders? A Roman Catholic Priest? Most of these claim to be saved by Christ too!

 

[Arch2k]

I have never met an Arminian

Two questions brother Scott:

1) How would YOU define Arminianism in context of this discussion (all 5 pts.?)?

2) What is it about Arminianism that makes it a damning heresy over and against just "error"?

 

[Blueridge Believer]

You may think it's 'good' but it was irrelevant to the discussion based upon the previous posts. People need to either read the thread or hold their tongue.

I beg to differ with you brother. It had everything to do with the discussion. Your position (if I've understood it) is that anyone who does not embrace the 5 points is not saved, and is therefore a heretic to be shunned. Therefore, anyone who names the name of Christ must jump up and down in our "bucket" before we can have fellowship with them. I read the thread and I have participated in the thread. I will not hold my tongue.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Two questions brother Scott:

1) How would YOU define Arminianism in context of this discussion (all 5 pts.?)?

As defined by Dordt.

2) What is it about Arminianism that makes it a damning heresy over and against just "error"?

As a system it denies Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and the perseverance of Christs elect.

~I know that the above is the default answer to your question, but it is easily understood in that light.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I beg to differ with you brother. It had everything to do with the discussion. Your position (if I've understood it) is that anyone who does not embrace the 5 points is not saved, and is therefore a heretic to be shunned. Therefore, anyone who names the name of Christ must jump up and down in our "bucket" before we can have fellowship with them. I read the thread and I have participated in the thread. I will not hold my tongue.

OK Jim,
You've read the thread, right? Please show me where I said that? It would be much easier holding your tongue, but since you have accused me of saying something that I have not, I will indulge you once again to show you that it is better at times to hold the tongue.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

OK Jim,
You've read the thread, right? Please show me where I said that? It would be much easier holding your tongue, but since you have accused me of saying something that I have not, I will indulge you once again to show you that it is better at times to hold the tongue.

Please for give me brother, for I have surely misunderstood you when you said this:


I'll be the first to say it: If Wesley died holding to Arminian theology, the one that the remonstrants held to, the one that Dordt condemned, he perished without Christ. As well, I will add Mother Theresa and all her good works to the bunch.
__________________

Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, Father to Nicole, Danielle & Zoe
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church,
Margate, Florida
RPCGA

 

[Scott Bushey]

Please for give me brother, for I have surely misunderstood you when you said this:


I'll be the first to say it: If Wesley died holding to Arminian theology, the one that the remonstrants held to, the one that Dordt condemned, he perished without Christ. As well, I will add Mother Theresa and all her good works to the bunch.

I still hold to this statement; However, it is much different than what you previously accused me of. Let me clarify; If anyone dies holding to Arminian theology, the one that the remonstrants held to, the one that Dordt condemned, he perishes without Christ.

~I have never met anyone who held to all 5 points of the remonstrants.

 

[Arch2k]

~I have never met anyone who held to all 5 points of the remonstrants.

Just for clarification, the remonstrants left the "5th" point open. They were undecided on the "perserverance of the saints."

That those who are in­corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un­derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv­ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be­coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be­fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

from The Remonstrant Articles.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Scott;

My post has everything to do with your thread. Take your own advice sometimes and hold your own tongue. I read your thread..I just didn't agree. You are quick to rebuke but slow to listen.

Slow to listen? Your post had nothing to do with the thread for if you had read it and understood it you would have seen that I never said anything about Geneva nor about anathematizing anyone who was in error; only those whom are heretics. That was the distinction I made. It was perfectly clear. How could you miss that? All your posts here and in other threads border upon pity (as Jeff cited) and the modern evangelical tolerance. I'll stick with the bible.

Anyone who has Christ, despite errors, has salvation.

What Christ Trevor? The Mormons claim a Christ. The JW's claim a Christ. The Roman Catholics claim a Christ. The Boston Church of Christ claims Christ; Are these errors or heresy? The Arminians that I have described here claim a Christ and are none the less perishing-admit it. They claim a Christ that is not able to keep them; he is a weak God whom is equal to satan. This is nonsense and is nothing more than an assault on the Gospel.

One must not need pass by Geneva to get to Him.

only the truth can set you free....not part of it.

Jeff-Bartel:

As far as my "argument from pity" goes... who cares. People do this all the time, even past theologians and Reformers. There should always be an passion for what we believe.

Thats exactly what were railing at; a passion for the true Gospel.

Also Jeff,

Do you ever pray with the unsaved? How about those seeking salvation? How about those who refuse Christ but will pray with you for more light, how about those in error but are meeting with you to learn - even though they haven't yet left their old errors....?

I believe everyone made this perfectly clear earlier in this thread.

Some examples (from reality):

The unsaved: "Lord, I am in trouble now and I do not know who you are. Help me figure this out" followed by mine, "Lord, show this person your nature and the beauty of Christ. Help her to meet you..etc..in the name of Jesus, the only true path to heaven "

I have no problem with this; I have done it on many occasions.

Another example (from recent reality):
The Muslim: " Allah, help this person who is sick and make him well again."
Myself, invited to take part: "Father in Heaven, I know that you care for your creation. Help this sick one and restore him to health...In the name of your son Jesus Christ."

I would not pray alongside a Muslim. He is a hater of the cross of Christ and the Gospel.

I have prayed with sinners and I have (gasp) even prayed with a Wiccan and a Muslim this way. If a person is sick and Muslims are going to be praying for them anyway and they invite you also to pray, you can either (a) refuse and not pray for the sick - and deprive that person of your prayers and also deprive those hearers of precious words concerning Christ, or (b) Pray for the sick on your own terms even though they will also be doing the same.

I will either wait for another opportunity or pray in private at home for the person. I will not rub elbows with heretics.

Can you see anything wrong with this?

You're kidding me, right?

It is part and parcel of evangelism.

Not biblical evangelism.

If we are caring for our neighbors than we are always praying for them and sometimes praying WITH them too- though never compromising one's faith or bending your beliefs one iota, even though you extend all the compassion you can. Muslims have asked to pray for me and I always tell them "please do..and let me do the same for you..."

I pray for their salvation solely. They are otherwise at enmity w/ God and God does not acknowledge them. Their sin has separated them.

My hypothetical argument from pity is not so hypothetical at all.

People get sick all the time and ask for the prayers of friends.

I pray for their eternal condition.

In the presence of many in a sick room do you ask, "Will you pray for her...oh, but not you Bob - your theology is a little off.."

Do you hold a prayer over a sick loved one but announce that all Arminians must first leave the room?

I am selectively concerned how and why I pray.

What do people do when they are near death - they pray. A theology lesson cannot be taught at the time but Christian compassion can be demonstrated.

I hear you; do you hear me?

Care to interact with this passage?

Jeremiah 7:9-16 9 "Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'-- that you may do all these abominations? 11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD. 12 "But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I made My name dwell at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel. 13 "And now, because you have done all these things," declares the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer, 14 therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15 "And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim. 16 "As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you.

 

[Arch2k]

Trevor,

An "appeal to pity" is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter who utilizes it. Pity in itself is fine, but when used to try to persude someone of the truth of something, it is fallacious. It is nothing more than emotionalism in place of logic.

Here's an example:

"Puppies and kitties are SO cute. Just look at how helpless they are! I rescued a puppy with a broken leg the other day and it occured to me that animals like this need God's grace too. So I brought it to church and gave it communion. God loves the little puppies just like he loves you and he loves me!"

There are actually people who do this by the way.

 

[non dignus]

I won't pray at any American Evangelical meeting.

I will NOT pray with an experienced Arminian teacher because it is reasonable to assume he has been shown, and has rejected, the doctrines of grace.

I would pray with any Arminian/Trinitarian novice.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Do you invite unbelievers to pray with you before meals?

Todd

Todd,
Sorry, I missed this one: No! If I am in this type of situation, I focus my prayers on me and my family- I generalize.

 

[satz]

Scott and Jeff,

Could you say which verses make you believe that elect, regenerate men are incapable of falling into arminian heresy or that the Holy Spirit will not allow them to?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Scott and Jeff,

Could you say which verses make you believe that elect, regenerate men are incapable of falling into arminian heresy or that the Holy Spirit will not allow them to?

John 16:12-15 12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Jude 1:24-25 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

John 6:37-39 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Philippians 1:6 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I think that one thing should be made as a distinction - praying with someone (as in a prayer meeting) and praying with/for someone on the spot.

These are quite different.

For example, Abraham prayed FOR Abimelech, not with him.

Paul prayed WITH the elders at Jerusalem.

Why not pray with an Arminian FOR him at the time of praying that he would see the Gospel clearly?

I would have not problem pulling soemone unsaved aside and praying for them, that God would demonstrate His soverign power over them and show them the truth. That sparks conversations. But I would never let them take the reigns.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I think that one thing should be made as a distinction - praying with someone (as in a prayer meeting) and praying with/for someone on the spot.

These are quite different.

For example, Abraham prayed FOR Abimelech, not with him.

Paul prayed WITH the elders at Jerusalem.

Why not pray with an Arminian FOR him at the time of praying that he would see the Gospel clearly?

I would have not problem pulling soemone unsaved aside and praying for them, that God would demonstrate His soverign power over them and show them the truth. That sparks conversations. But I would never let them take the reigns.

Matt,
That distinction has been made earlier in the thread; the difference between praying with/for those w/ heretical views. With, no! For, yes!

 

[Arch2k]

Scott and Jeff,

Could you say which verses make you believe that elect, regenerate men are incapable of falling into arminian heresy or that the Holy Spirit will not allow them to?

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Scott and Jeff,

Could you say which verses make you believe that elect, regenerate men are incapable of falling into arminian heresy or that the Holy Spirit will not allow them to?

Here's another:

Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Key words: "If it were possible........."

 

[Blue Tick]

Three people that assault the doctrines of Grace.

Norman Geisler- Chosen but Free

Dave Hunt- What Love is This

George Bryson- The Darkside of Calvinism

Now, all three of these men claim to be Christians, and all three clearly attack the DoG. However, they would vehemently argue that they are not Arminian.
Therefore, just because the above authors don't call themselves Arminian doesn't mean that their theology isn't Arminian. In essence they're Arminians in theology and doctrine even though they don't call themselves Arminian. The point is, just like with Mormons, we have the same WORDS, but wrong and different definitions.

Mormons- We believe in Jesus

Arminians/Evangelicals- We believe in Jesus

Reformed- We believe in Jesus

Question: Which Jesus?

I can call some Mormon missionaries over and they would be happy to pray in Jesus' name. The same with Christians who wounldn't call themselves Arminians but are Arminian in theology. We could get together and pray in Jesus' name.

Mormon Jesus- Satan's brother, created being, had a wife, etc.
Conclusion: Heresy

Arminian/Evangelical Jesus- Our Jesus want's to save everyone, our Jesus wouldn't send people to hell, our Jesus won't violate your freewill because he gave you the precious gift of freewill so you could truly chose him. You need to invite him into your heart.
Conclusion: Story book Jesus

Reformed/Biblical Jesus- Judge and Justifier. Chose some for salvation based upon his will and good pleasure. Nothing in him is contingent upon the will of man, etc.
Conclusion: Biblical Jesus, even if it is uncomfortable.

The problem is which Jesus are we praying to? The Arminian Jesus who want's to save everyone but can't or the sovereign Jesus who is the judge and justifier of men. Therefore, should (I,we) pray with evangelicals/Arminians who hold to to the gospel that is propagted by men like, Geisler, Hunt, and Bryson. What these guys expound in their books is what most non-reformed Christians believe. If you don't think this is the gospel that a majority of evangelicals hold then you are sadly naive.

Why is this an issue? Because if we are praying to a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible then we are praying to a false Jesus. It seems that the majority of Evangelicals have a Jesus they want but not the Jesus of scripture.

 

[Blue Tick]

A possible scenario if we agree with Scott:



THE DYING MAN, THE ARMINIAN WIFE AND THE NARROW CALVINIST: A play in one act


SCENE ONE: A five-pointer (hypothetically his name is Bob) visits the family of a dying man in a hospital room

[various beeps..stage is white...].

Narrator: This dying man is a full-fledged card-carrying calvinist too...but his wife is not. She believes in free will but says that she has trusted in Christ to be her saviour and Lord and she loves a life of Bible study.

She attends the OPC with her husband but 'just doesn't know all that theological stuff...".

She says that she knows that we are saved through grace alone through the work of Christ and all we have to do is to believe this to be saved. When she prayed for salvation she prayed, "Oh Lord, save me from my sins..."

Then, the Arminian wife of the dying man asks Bob..let's pick it up there...


Arminian wife: "Oh, my husband is dying [beep...bepp...beep..beep... of the respirator in the background]..won't you pray with me for him..."

Bob: "Sorry...no can do....I want to glorify God by not associating with your type..."

Arminian wife: I know I do not know as much as you - oh great Puritan Imitator - but I desire for you to pray with me here for the health of my husband.."

Bob: "I take my theology very seriously and I cannot lower myself to pray for one who believes in works righteousness..."

Arminian wife: "But I trusted in Christ and I am praying for him to save me and take me to heaven... I do not believe in works righteousness.."

Bob: Oh, but your sytem leads to it...[with drama] Madame, you are a Pelagian!"

Arminian Wife: A pelajjiooo..what? What is that? I trust in Christ alone for my salvation even if I accepted him during an altar call and you didn't... and I trust him now.

..Please, please Oh Great Calvinist Doctrine Expert, pray with me for my poor husband..."

Bob: Sorry, I can have no fellowship with the works of darkness..."



[beep....beep......BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...as the man dies..."


CURTAINS CLOSE





Praying WITH someone is not agreeing with them nor endorsing their beliefs. I fear many hear would sacrifices exhibitions of Christian love over some silly misconception of doctrinal purity.

Trevor you should have been a screenplay writer!

Obviously your point is made. But if the (character woman) believes in free will then her idea of how she was saved is works righteousness. Anyone that believes it is their own free will that gives them the power to believe the gospel is relying on a works based gospel.

Mormons believe and trust in Christ,love bible studies and believe in free will.

So the question is which Jesus are you trusting in?

 

[VaughanRSmith]

A mistaken Christian who believes in free will does not make them an Arminian. Just as a Christian who believes in divine election does not make them a Calvinist. One who actively rejects the doctrines of grace, after being taught them faithfully, I believe is not being led by the spirit into truth. The only time I would refuse to pray with a non-Calvinist, non-reformed Christian is after I have explained the DoG to the best of my God given ability, and they refuse. That is where I know that they are following a different Jesus.

Or, if they come out and say "I'm an Arminian. I hate your Calvinist theology".

A Christian woman whose husband is dying, who "doesn't understand" all that reformed theology stuff, I would pray with. Then lay out the DoG as easily and clearly as I could.