Subscriptionism - Do you Agree?

[wsw201]

Well I guess I am alittle confused as to what you mean by implementation.

As far as the congregation is concerned, implementation must come through teaching and also teaching what the Presbyterian Church is all about. We have had the same situation at our Church. I can count on one hand the number of people who grew up in the Reformed faith much less the Presbyterian Church. Our biggest problem is that when people come in from other Churches, they bring in alot of baggage that doesn't fit in Presbyterian ecclisiology or doctrines. So does the Church change to fit them or do they change to fit the Church?

 

[raderag]

[quote:5bb8eb8417][i:5bb8eb8417]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:5bb8eb8417]
Well I guess I am alittle confused as to what you mean by implementation.

As far as the congregation is concerned, implementation must come through teaching and also teaching what the Presbyterian Church is all about. We have had the same situation at our Church. I can count on one hand the number of people who grew up in the Reformed faith much less the Presbyterian Church. Our biggest problem is that when people come in from other Churches, they bring in alot of baggage that doesn't fit in Presbyterian ecclisiology or doctrines. So does the Church change to fit them or do they change to fit the Church? [/quote:5bb8eb8417]

First of all, it is the Church's duty to remain truthful to its Confession while at the same time carrying out the Great commission. If a church is growing fast, it should give careful consideration in educating its members and future leaders.

Also, I wasn't indicating that there was a problem in our church; actually its elders and even its members are pretty knowledgeable and agreeable to the confessions.

My point was that since the PCA already has many in leadership that don't fully subscribe to the WCF, how does the PCA implement subscriptionism? Actually, it is my understanding that the PCA doesn't fully subscribe to the WCF. In other words,, isn't there steps that need to be taken to get this done properly and without causing division? The PCA wasn't founded on this principle (from what I can tell), so it seems to me that subscriptionism should be implemented, but carefully. I know there are many current elders and Pastors that take exception to some part of the confession. I am sure there are many in seminary as well as candidates that do also. My question is what do we do to change peoples minds about the confession? How does the PCA become subscriptionist without causing UNNECESSARY division or enacting something that will not be enforced? What is it about the mindset of those in the PCA that believe we need to object to some part of the WCF? In other words,, I am saying that since subscritpionism is not the way of the PCA now, how do we make it? I don't think that is unreasonable considering the fact that Fred Greco indicated it would not even be possible.

Really, I am not sure, and that is why I had many question marks in my many questions. Rather than answering my questions, you took my questions as an argument and caused me to go on this rabbit trail. Next time I will remember that a question containing the word "how" means that I want to lower standards.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by raderag]

 

[wsw201]

Well I was right! I was confused :tongue:

Okay, There are ways to deal with this issue of subscription. Subscribing to the Westminster Standards has always been apart of the PCA. The problem has been enforcement. The way the PCA is organized, Presbyteries and Sessions are given a considerable amount of latitude. The PCA is not monolithic. They followed the pattern of the Southern Presbyterian Church (PCUS) from which it came out of. What may be an exception in one Presbytery may not be allowed in another Presbytery. The same goes for Sessions. At the last GA the subscription vows for Teaching Elders were changed to allow for "loose" subscription, but a Presbytery can still reject a candidate based on his exception.

To me the solution starts at the Session level. The Presbyterian system of government is a "bottom-up" structure. Everything starts at the Session level. Lets say that all the Sessions in a Presbytery hold to a strict subscriptionist view; the Presbytery is made up of both Teaching and Ruling Elders of those various Sessions. Therefore, if the Sessions in a Presbytery are strict subscriptionists then most likely the Presbytery will be. If the Sessions in a Presbytery don't care much about subscribing to the Standards, then the Presbytery will usually have the same view. Then if enough Presbyteries hold to a certain view of subscription, this will eventually affect the entire church via GA. This is how the PPLN was able to change the subscription vows in the last GA. To me the key is better trained Ruling Elders who want to get involved.

As far as causing division, someone is not going to like any change no matter what. Under the current situation, the full suscriptionists in the PCA are not too happy. If the situation was reversed, the loose subscriptionists would be up in arms. But as Christians, we submit to the wisdom of the Church, but we continue to argue our points and pray that God's will be done.

Hope this helps.

 

[raderag]

[quote:ff7c6b322d][i:ff7c6b322d]Originally posted by wsw201[/i:ff7c6b322d]
Well I was right! I was confused :tongue:
[/quote:ff7c6b322d]

No problem, I usually am to.

[quote:ff7c6b322d]
Okay, There are ways to deal with this issue of subscription. Subscribing to the Westminster Standards has always been apart of the PCA. The problem has been enforcement. The way the PCA is organized, Presbyteries and Sessions are given a considerable amount of latitude. The PCA is not monolithic. They followed the pattern of the Southern Presbyterian Church (PCUS) from which it came out of. What may be an exception in one Presbytery may not be allowed in another Presbytery. The same goes for Sessions. At the last GA the subscription vows for Teaching Elders were changed to allow for "loose" subscription, but a Presbytery can still reject a candidate based on his exception.

To me the solution starts at the Session level. The Presbyterian system of government is a "bottom-up" structure. Everything starts at the Session level. Lets say that all the Sessions in a Presbytery hold to a strict subscriptionist view; the Presbytery is made up of both Teaching and Ruling Elders of those various Sessions. Therefore, if the Sessions in a Presbytery are strict subscriptionists then most likely the Presbytery will be. If the Sessions in a Presbytery don't care much about subscribing to the Standards, then the Presbytery will usually have the same view. Then if enough Presbyteries hold to a certain view of subscription, this will eventually affect the entire church via GA. This is how the PPLN was able to change the subscription vows in the last GA. To me the key is better trained Ruling Elders who want to get involved.

As far as causing division, someone is not going to like any change no matter what. Under the current situation, the full suscriptionists in the PCA are not too happy. If the situation was reversed, the loose subscriptionists would be up in arms. But as Christians, we submit to the wisdom of the Church, but we continue to argue our points and pray that God's will be done.

Hope this helps. [/quote:ff7c6b322d]

Thanks, and I think I see where you are coming from.