Tithing? Friendly thoughts and questions

[KMK]

Now, what if he makes 200k? He's now giving 5%. Is he following biblical teaching now?

I am not sure what the question is. What do you mean by 'biblical teaching'?

The bottom line is this: the Bible teaches us to give generously, regularly, and systematically. By definition that means some kind of generous percentage of revenue. There is more biblical support for 10% than there is for any other percentage.

 

[TomVols]

Now, what if he makes 200k? He's now giving 5%. Is he following biblical teaching now?

I am not sure what the question is. What do you mean by 'biblical teaching'?

The bottom line is this: the Bible teaches us to give generously, regularly, and systematically. By definition that means some kind of generous percentage of revenue. There is more biblical support for 10% than there is for any other percentage.

So anything other than 10% is __________?

Biblical teaching=guidance of the Bible re: what a Christian should practice. Principles, commands, etc.

Thank you for your reply. I look forward to your response. (For what it's worth I'm not disagreeing with your assertion. Just looking for rationale etc. as I have stated previously, we often leave out a lot when this subject is discussed across the board.)

 

[Ryan J. Ross]

The application of 1 Corinthians 9:14 seems to frame the question better than the obligation and general equity thereof a mosaic and OT practice.

Personally, I read many of the NT texts "dealing with tithing" to be situation specific, excepting "worthy of double honor," "muzzling an ox," and "sharing with him who teaches."

 

[Peairtach]

Now, what if he makes 200k? He's now giving 5%. Is he following biblical teaching now?

I am not sure what the question is. What do you mean by 'biblical teaching'?

The bottom line is this: the Bible teaches us to give generously, regularly, and systematically. By definition that means some kind of generous percentage of revenue. There is more biblical support for 10% than there is for any other percentage.

So anything other than 10% is __________?

Biblical teaching=guidance of the Bible re: what a Christian should practice. Principles, commands, etc.

Thank you for your reply. I look forward to your response. (For what it's worth I'm not disagreeing with your assertion. Just looking for rationale etc. as I have stated previously, we often leave out a lot when this subject is discussed across the board.)

You seem to be having difficulty "getting your head round" the idea of learning by general equity from the administrative laws of the OT.

The tithe predates Moses, and that is important. We still give to God, like Abraham and the OT Israelites, and that's important. We still give in proportion to how God has blessed us (I Corinthians 16:2) and that's important. Also Abraham volunteered the tithe to Melchisedec and Jacob to God. Their pattern of behaviour is something we can learn from.

We need to know what kind of proportion of our weekly wages we ordinarily should give.

Those who don't tithe may ask - in their present circumstances - whether they could be giving more. But some on low incomes and in certain financial straits cannot afford it. Even under Moses, when tithing was a law, not all were required to tithe, or to give the full tithe. We wouldn't/shouldn't say "you are sinning because you are not tithing". They have to decide before God, using sanctified common sense and the principle of tithing.

Some who are tithing could afford to give more to Christ's cause and kingdom, and as some people's salaries increase dramatically. they should be aware that they maybe should be giving 11/2 tithes or 2 tithes. But we wouldn't/shouldn't say to the wealthy, " you are sinning because you are not giving more than a tithe". They have to decide before God using sanctified common sense and the principle of tithing.

Our giving to Christ's cause and kingdom via the orthodox Visible Church, does not exempt us from other charitable giving e.g. Matthew 6:3-4.

We want biblical denominations and congregations to be come rich, strong and powerful in this world, although they must always be dependent not on their bank balance, but on the Lord.

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[whirlingmerc]

One other point about Abraham's giving... there is exactly one case cited of tithing to Melchidedek who gave the army bread and wine, 10% of the booty in return for Melchizedek's blessing and provision...with no indication if tithing was a habitual regular practice of Abraham, just that in one case he did it and it appeared voluntary not compulsory or an obligation but that's not clear either...

In contrast, the sacrifice of Isaac is emphasized more by God's reaction and that is not a tithe, that is more like giving all

I'm sticking with leaving it to individual conscience
Give generously, not under compulsion, give sacrificially
also give to cultivate a heart felt treasure in heavenly priorities
Tithing is a fine rule of thumb. Give most to the local church, the money will go farther than if given haphazardly to random organizations but that's only my recommendation

 

[KMK]

So anything other than 10% is __________?

I am not sure I understand the question. Anything other than 10% is not a 'tithe'? Because the word 'tithe' means one tenth or 10%?

In your OP, you made this statement:

However, the tithe crowd is forced to say the 100k a year banker is sinning if he gives $9,999 and not $10,000.

Who is the 'tithe crowd'? Have you ever actually met anyone who fits this description? I think you might be be confused by a false dichotomy. The Reformed who follow the general equity of the OT law of tithing would never say such a thing. Maybe the Latter Day Saints or Adventists?

 

[chuckd]

The lawyer who earns $500k per year. He gives $5k per year to his church and another 5k to para church ministries. 2% of his income. 10k to kingdom work. Is he following biblical teaching on giving?

$500k should go to "kingdom work." So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

If this person gave $450k of his income to his church and spent the rest frivolously, he would still not be following the Biblical teaching on being a good steward of his money.

It is common sense (and Biblical) to support our ministers. We do this for school teachers, police, firefighters, and politicians. Much more should we do for those called to minister to men's souls. 10% is a good guide. If he needs more, the congregation should give more. If he needs less, I would still give 10% so he can both feel secure and/or have the ability to distribute the funds to other churches & ministers in need.

In the end though, I don't see the other 90% as "mine." It is given to me by God as an allowance and I seek to be a good steward of it.

 

[Toasty]

alongside freewill offerings

Richard, you wrote previously that unscriptural views of the Regulative Principle of Worship can lead one away from true worship into worldliness. Likewise you should not mention 'freewill offerings'. This could lead someone away from Calvinism into a Free will theology.

Aren't people determined to give freewill offerings?

 

[TomVols]

Richard (if I may call you that) wrote:

You seem to be having difficulty "getting your head round" the idea of learning by general equity from the administrative laws of the OT

I'm not sure why you say that. I understand the concept of general equity (cf WCF 19.4; LBCF 19.4). While this is another can of corn, it appears that you are using the word administrative interchangably with civil in the depiction of the equity principle therein. I'm even understanding that, if this is not your case, you are using "general equity" in terms of hermeneutical resonance and dissonance for application purposes when approaching the overarching tithe theme from the OT.

It seems as if you aren't quite wanting to answer my questions directly for some reason. Not sure why. At any rate, I'm appreciative of this post. To wit:

The tithe predates Moses, and that is important. We still give to God, like Abraham and the OT Israelites, and that's important. We still give in proportion to how God has blessed us (I Corinthians 16:2) and that's important. Also Abraham volunteered the tithe to Melchisedec and Jacob to God. Their pattern of behaviour is something we can learn from.
We need to know what kind of proportion of our weekly wages we ordinarily should give.

Agreed.

Those who don't tithe may ask - in their present circumstances - whether they could be giving more. But some on low incomes and in certain financial straits cannot afford it. Even under Moses, when tithing was a law, not all were required to tithe, or to give the full tithe. We wouldn't/shouldn't say "you are sinning because you are not tithing". They have to decide before God, using sanctified common sense and the principle of tithing.
Some who are tithing could afford to give more to Christ's cause and kingdom, and as some people's salaries increase dramatically. they should be aware that they maybe should be giving 11/2 tithes or 2 tithes. But we wouldn't/shouldn't say to the wealthy, " you are sinning because you are not giving more than a tithe". They have to decide before God using sanctified common sense and the principle of tithing.

When I read this at face value I cannot help but think that one must be quite careful with this to avoid double-speak. At face value I find little to disagree with. However, it appears that you are asserting that the tithe still is minimally implicit as a continuing command based on general equity, yet want to avoid hammering the "rich" for not giving more than 10% or smacking the "poor" for not giving 10%. While the "principle of tithing" is yet to be defined despite my repeated requests, it is proffered as the standard - again, based on general equity. So, we're getting somewhere....slowly. I'd like to hear you elaborate on this section and address the issues therein, particularly the principle of the tithe and how it is defined. So I hope you'll continue to move forward. Thank you!

 

[TomVols]

Tithing is a fine rule of thumb.

Michael,
Thank you for your post. It is straightforward and helpful. I think I would ask this of the part I cited. The problem, as I humbly see it, is if we use tithing as a "rule of thumb," we are left to define what exactly we mean. If we mean it is a goal, then that seems to be limiting. If we mean it shoud be a goal to seek as a minimum, then we run into sundry problems because now we've essentially made tithing a de facto command and perhaps going beyond what the Scriptures teach. However, there are those who do in fact make it such, and believe they have rationale to do so. It is for this cause this thread exists because that is often a question that goes unanswered. Read the book Richard recommended and you'll see it come to fruition even there. In short, optional commands seem antithetical. So without solid rationale, I wonder if they're helpful. Just me thinking aloud.

 

[TomVols]

If this person gave $450k of his income to his church and spent the rest frivolously, he would still not be following the Biblical teaching on being a good steward of his money.

Quite true.

 

[TomVols]

I am not sure I understand the question.

Let me take another whack at it. You seem to argue that not giving at least 10% is a failure/sin/shortcoming/shortfall. True or false? Thank you!

Have you ever actually met anyone who fits this description?

Oh, absolutely. Grew up in that tradition. (Not in it now, now that I'm in the Reformed end of the pool) And see the work RIchard recommended.

The Reformed who follow the general equity of the OT law of tithing would never say such a thing.

Interesting. Now we are getting to crux of the matter. Why would they not say such? if tithing is what is required, and 10% is a tithe, how is anything other than 10% not a missing of the mark? Thank you!

 

[Peairtach]

When the law of mandatory tithing was in force not everyone tithed and those who did tithe didn't always pay the full tithe depending on how many animals they had.

Tithing was a positive law under the Mosaic administration. To the extent that it was commanded it was morally obligatory for the Jews to obey God regarding tithing. It was also volunteered by Abraham and Jacob before the Mosaic administration.

It is not a positive law for us, but a principle of general equity. Maybe you find it difficult to understand the difference between a moral law - like Thou shalt not killl - and a principle of general equity which gives us guidance on how to behave.

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[TomVols]

No, I don't find it difficult at all. Perhaps you aren't understanding that which is queried in the posts. This may help explain why questions are not addressed which arise. At any rate, I appreciate your attempts, my friend!

 

[Peairtach]

No, I don't find it difficult at all. Perhaps you aren't understanding that which is queried in the posts. This may help explain why questions are not addressed which arise. At any rate, I appreciate your attempts, my friend!

It, being a principle of general equity, people aren't sinning if they give 9% instead of 10%. It's not a moral law. It wasn't a moral law under Moses, although since God commanded it, it was morally binding.

For us it is a guide to help us to understand the kind of range of the proportion we should ordinarily give. It's quite difficult to think of that without some general guidance, which we have laid down in God's Word from our patrirachal fathers in the faith, Abraham and Jacob, and our OT brothers.

 

[aadebayo]

Our Lord said in Matthew 23:23 that "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." This woe is one of the woes spoken to the Pharisees from our Lord. He calls them hypocrites because in paying their tithes, they have omitted to what we may refer to as the primary duties. He refers to them as weightier matters of the law. He however ends this wore with this phrase "and not to leave the other undone." Meaning that the tithe is still a means of sanctification of dedicating a portion of our income to the gospel. Our obedience to tithing can also be taken from Matthew chapter 5:18 where Christ said that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

 

[TomVols]

No, I don't find it difficult at all. Perhaps you aren't understanding that which is queried in the posts. This may help explain why questions are not addressed which arise. At any rate, I appreciate your attempts, my friend!

It, being a principle of general equity, people aren't sinning if they give 9% instead of 10%. It's not a moral law. It wasn't a moral law under Moses, although since God commanded it, it was morally binding.

For us it is a guide to help us to understand the kind of range of the proportion we should ordinarily give. It's quite difficult to think of that without some general guidance, which we have laid down in God's Word from our patrirachal fathers in the faith, Abraham and Jacob, and our OT brothers.

Thank you. There are ancillary matters we may discuss in another thread or perhaps by pm. Thanks for your efforts my friend!