Was Mary Perpetually A Virgin?

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Again, the alleged blind spots we have as to "until", "firstborn" and "brother" have not been adequately shown - as you yourself admit.

Nor is there a way for me to adequately show this one way or the other. You look at the passage, and you see "until" as very obviously meaning a particular thing. Your only clue that you might be wrong is that others disagree. Well, I happen to be inclined to agree with you - but it gives me pause (as I think it should in general) that so many of the seminal figures in my belief tradition thought otherwise.

It is one thing to allow for a possibility of a blind spot here in our non-PV position. Sure that is possible.

But it is quite another thing to somehow "allow" that what has been given here in response has shown a blind spot when the alleged bind spot has not in fact been shown.

If we reiterate our position over and over and our Scriptural points are ignored by the other side, it is unfair to claim we are the ones being dogmatic.
The only thing that you're re-iterating is that "until" must mean a certain thing. Calvin and Turretin are clearly saying "well, we disagree".

And that's my whole point. I don't think the argument can be settled with the conclusiveness that Ben seems to see. If Ben wants to be quick to say that Calvin and Turretin were just plain wrong, so be it. I'm less quick to come to that conclusion.
 
The quality of this particular tradition and its consistency with Scripture is the object of concern.

There is a hermeneutical grid here and that grid decides on quality and consistency. The collating of multiple passages as if they were relevant to this issue is itself a hermeneutical decision. The choice to read them as somehow "natural" or "proper" points to a hermeneutical framework.
 
1 - Trustworthiness of the authors. How does Calvin handle Origen and Jerome across his body of work? It seems to me that he has no problem critically evaluating earlier theologians, appropriating and discarding as he sees fit.
We need to apply these criteria for ourselves. I don't think Origen and Jerome are all that credible (nor do most Protestants).
But if you must know, the Reformers were extraordinarily critical of Origen. Melanchthon thought Origen was the one that corrupted the gospel in the early church (in Loci Communes).
2 - This cuts both ways. We have no first-hand testimony that Mary and Joseph did OR didn't consummate their marriage in the normal way.
No so. The Scriptures are first-hand testimony, and they say Christ had brothers and sisters. Whereas the father's traditions are very late and very doubtful which say he did not. (And they're not even agreed on that. Some fathers held to the contrary view).

There is a hermeneutical grid here and that grid decides on quality and consistency. The collating of multiple passages as if they were relevant to this issue is itself a hermeneutical decision. The choice to read them as somehow "natural" or "proper" points to a hermeneutical framework.
Brother, I'm sure you don't intend it, but your arguing against hermeneutical objectivity sounds a lot like a post-modern. Some are liable to take these sorts of arguments and apply them to things that are essential dogmas, like how the Papists say hermeneutical objectivity is impossible and we need a Pope.
 
Can you please be specific as to what this means and how non-PV hermeneutical grids differ from PV hermeneutical grids? Thank you.

Look at this thread to see how attitudes towards sex and marriage come into focus when examining this question. It is obvious that there are a range of issues at work here and these colour the way one reads and interprets the Scriptures. Different attitudes assume different things.
 
The issue is that the early church developed its traditions based upon patently superstitious and unbiblical notions on a vast range of topics. The ludicrous positions on Mary included.

The issue for us is this: if you start with the tradition, you then approach the Bible demanding that it contradict.

But if you start with the straightforward reading of scripture then it’s as clear as the sun is in the sky that after the birth of Jesus Mary had a basically normal marital relationship with her husband.

And that the ordinary straightforward reading of the text must take priority is demanded by the consistent application of reformation interpretive principles, as well as cognitive awareness of the gross and innumerable errors baptized as tradition within the early and medieval church.
 
The only thing that you're re-iterating is that "until" must mean a certain thing. Calvin and Turretin are clearly saying "well, we disagree".

And that's my whole point. I don't think the argument can be settled with the conclusiveness that Ben seems to see. If Ben wants to be quick to say that Calvin and Turretin were just plain wrong, so be it. I'm less quick to come to that conclusion.

You are close but not quite there.

1) I have reiterated that "until" must mean its usual meaning, and I have also shown that exceptions to the usual meaning of the change in status only occurs with God as the referent. This implies that for Joseph (or any other human) "until" must mean its usual meaning that indicates a change in status. The way you portray it is if I am just making a claim - you know "just bald appeal to unaided reason". That is unfair.

2) As to the bolded, you forgot the adverb "only". Calvin and others were only saying "we disagree". They did not go further in-depth Scripturally and exegetically into how "until" is different in this case than the usual meaning or how it is reasonable that "brother" means "not brother" and only in this case of family and no other cases of male relatives in the NT.

If it feels like I am "too quick" to say that they are wrong, why should that even matter? If I am wrong and they or anyone did make a solid case for how, then my position would change accordingly.

This is not that different than scientific theoretical models. As a YEC I have worked on a model for what is naturalistic in operation post-Creation and how and what was miraculous in the first 6 days of creation. This model is not perfect or seen as inerrant - rather fluid with new discoveries and developments in science. Why is this any different in the science of hermeneutics? Why is the position of non-PV that rejects otherwise excellent Reformed theologians' points on PV considered dogmatic instead of delving into why and how secondary meanings must be applied re: PV?
 
You are close but not quite there.

1) I have reiterated that "until" must mean its usual meaning, and I have also shown that exceptions to the usual meaning of the change in status only occurs with God as the referent. This implies that for Joseph (or any other human) "until" must mean its usual meaning that indicates a change in status. The way you portray it is if I am just making a claim - you know "just bald appeal to unaided reason". That is unfair.

2) As to the bolded, you forgot the adverb "only". Calvin and others were only saying "we disagree". They did not go further in-depth Scripturally and exegetically into how "until" is different in this case than the usual meaning or how it is reasonable that "brother" means "not brother" and only in this case of family and no other cases of male relatives in the NT.

If it feels like I am "too quick" to say that they are wrong, why should that even matter? If I am wrong and they or anyone did make a solid case for how, then my position would change accordingly.

This is not that different than scientific theoretical models. As a YEC I have worked on a model for what is naturalistic in operation post-Creation and how and what was miraculous in the first 6 days of creation. This model is not perfect or seen as inerrant - rather fluid with new discoveries and developments in science. Why is this any different in the science of hermeneutics? Why is the position of non-PV that rejects otherwise excellent Reformed theologians' points on PV considered dogmatic instead of delving into why and how secondary meanings must be applied re: PV?
It's only considered dogmatic because some on this thread have made it that way.
 
To bring it around full circle, what are some other practical implications of the doctrine? Obviously, the right use of tradition is one, the one that has dominated the discourse. Are there any other practical implications of the doctrine. Perhaps specifically related to practical piety in the everyday life? The reverse question also being legitimate, does it discourage practical piety in every day life?
 

"By this, the Evangelist means that Joseph did not take his wife to live with her, but to obey God and to fulfill his duty towards Him. It was neither for carnal love, nor for profit, nor for any other reason that he took his wife: but it was to obey God, and to show that he accepted the grace that was offered to him."

"He did not therefore live with her, he did not have her company. And there we see that he did not regard her person: for he deprived himself of a wife. He could have married another, since he could not enjoy the woman he had married: but he preferred to give up his right and abstain from marriage (while still being married), he preferred (he says) to remain thus to devote himself to the service of God, rather than to consider what would have pleased him more."
 
"By this, the Evangelist means that Joseph did not take his wife to live with her, but to obey God and to fulfill his duty towards Him. It was neither for carnal love, nor for profit, nor for any other reason that he took his wife: but it was to obey God, and to show that he accepted the grace that was offered to him."

"He did not therefore live with her, he did not have her company. And there we see that he did not regard her person: for he deprived himself of a wife. He could have married another, since he could not enjoy the woman he had married: but he preferred to give up his right and abstain from marriage (while still being married), he preferred (he says) to remain thus to devote himself to the service of God, rather than to consider what would have pleased him more."
As I mentioned previously this ignores the full context of what Calvin wrote (emphasis added):
he is writing in the context of, as he said in his commentary on this section "It is said that Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: but this is limited to that very time. What took place afterwards, the historian does not inform us." It seems people are reading into what Calvin wrote the very way he says not to read into Scripture.
 
"By this, the Evangelist means that Joseph did not take his wife to live with her, but to obey God and to fulfill his duty towards Him. It was neither for carnal love, nor for profit, nor for any other reason that he took his wife: but it was to obey God, and to show that he accepted the grace that was offered to him."

"He did not therefore live with her, he did not have her company. And there we see that he did not regard her person: for he deprived himself of a wife. He could have married another, since he could not enjoy the woman he had married: but he preferred to give up his right and abstain from marriage (while still being married), he preferred (he says) to remain thus to devote himself to the service of God, rather than to consider what would have pleased him more."
He is still talking about the period before Jesus’s birth.
 
He is still talking about the period before Jesus’s birth.

Concerning a decision that would bear on the married state after His birth.

As I mentioned previously this ignores the full context of what Calvin wrote (emphasis added):

Reducing what he says in his sermon to what he writes in the commentary fails to account for the fact that Calvin says substantively more in his sermon. And there are obvious reasons for that.
 
Reducing what he says in his sermon to what he writes in the commentary fails to account for the fact that Calvin says substantively more in his sermon. And there are obvious reasons for that.
It’s not reducing it, it’s keeping it all in context. We should read his sermons in light of his commentary, and his commentary in light of the Institutes.
 
It’s not reducing it, it’s keeping it all in context. We should read his sermons in light of his commentary, and his commentary in light of the Institutes.


Calvin's instruction anent the commentaries and Institutes pertains to theological interpretation. He wasn't limiting content. You will find numerous things in the sermons that are not in the commentaries. You can't just make them disappear.
 
Calvin's instruction anent the commentaries and Institutes pertains to theological interpretation. He wasn't limiting content. You will find numerous things in the sermons that are not in the commentaries. You can't just make them disappear.
No one is making anything disappear. Just as the best interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself, the best interpretation of Calvin is Calvin. If there is a question about the true and full sense of anything Calvin wrote, it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly. Consider, too, that Calvin's sermons were often recorded and transcribed by others. While Calvin's sermons were preached orally, many were transcribed by assistants or fellow pastors, then later edited and published, not necessarily by Calvin. His commentaries are much more likely to have been written, edited, and published under Calvin's direct supervision. So, whatever your AI translation of the Calvin's “Sermon 22” on the Harmony of the Gospels in Corpus Reformatorum states, it should be reconciled with what Calvin writes elsewhere. Consider, for example, his commentary on Luke 1.34 (my emphasis added):

"The conjecture which some have drawn from these words, that she had formed a vow of perpetual virginity, is unfounded and altogether absurd. She would, in that case, have committed treachery by allowing herself to be united to a husband, and would have poured contempt on the holy covenant of marriage; which could not have been done without mockery of God. Although the Papists have exercised barbarous tyranny on this subject, yet they have never proceeded so far as to allow the wife to form a vow of continence at her own pleasure. Besides, it is an idle and unfounded supposition that a monastic life existed among the Jews.

"We must reply, however, to another objection, that the virgin refers to the future, and so declares that she will have no intercourse with a man. The probable and simple explanation is, that the greatness or rather majesty of the subject made so powerful an impression on the virgin, that all her senses were bound and locked up in astonishment. When she is informed that the Son of God will be born, she imagines something unusual, and for that reason leaves conjugal intercourse out of view. Hence she breaks out in amazement, How shall this be? And so God graciously forgives her, and replies kindly and gently by the angel, because, in a devout and serious manner, and with admiration of a divine work, she had inquired how that would be, which, she was convinced, went beyond the common and ordinary course of nature. In a word, this question was not so contrary to faith, because it arose rather from admiration than from distrust."
 
So, whatever your AI translation of the Calvin's “Sermon 22” on the Harmony of the Gospels in Corpus Reformatorum states, it should be reconciled with what Calvin writes elsewhere.

There is nothing to be reconciled with what he says elsewhere. It is not contrary information. It is additional information -- additional information which some are not willing to see because contrary to what they would like to believe Calvin held on the subject.
 
No one is making anything disappear. Just as the best interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself, the best interpretation of Calvin is Calvin. If there is a question about the true and full sense of anything Calvin wrote, it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly. Consider, too, that Calvin's sermons were often recorded and transcribed by others. While Calvin's sermons were preached orally, many were transcribed by assistants or fellow pastors, then later edited and published, not necessarily by Calvin. His commentaries are much more likely to have been written, edited, and published under Calvin's direct supervision. So, whatever your AI translation of the Calvin's “Sermon 22” on the Harmony of the Gospels in Corpus Reformatorum states, it should be reconciled with what Calvin writes elsewhere. Consider, for example, his commentary on Luke 1.34 (my emphasis added):

"The conjecture which some have drawn from these words, that she had formed a vow of perpetual virginity, is unfounded and altogether absurd. She would, in that case, have committed treachery by allowing herself to be united to a husband, and would have poured contempt on the holy covenant of marriage; which could not have been done without mockery of God. Although the Papists have exercised barbarous tyranny on this subject, yet they have never proceeded so far as to allow the wife to form a vow of continence at her own pleasure. Besides, it is an idle and unfounded supposition that a monastic life existed among the Jews.

"We must reply, however, to another objection, that the virgin refers to the future, and so declares that she will have no intercourse with a man. The probable and simple explanation is, that the greatness or rather majesty of the subject made so powerful an impression on the virgin, that all her senses were bound and locked up in astonishment. When she is informed that the Son of God will be born, she imagines something unusual, and for that reason leaves conjugal intercourse out of view. Hence she breaks out in amazement, How shall this be? And so God graciously forgives her, and replies kindly and gently by the angel, because, in a devout and serious manner, and with admiration of a divine work, she had inquired how that would be, which, she was convinced, went beyond the common and ordinary course of nature. In a word, this question was not so contrary to faith, because it arose rather from admiration than from distrust."
Yes, but if we are to look at something in light of their other writings, what do we do when it seems overwhelmingly he holds a certain position even contrary to a single instance elsewhere?

"We have already said in another place that according to the custom of the Hebrews all relatives were called 'brethren.' Still Helvidius [a 4th century heretic] has shown himself to be ignorant of this by stating that Mary had many children just because in several places they are spoken of as 'brethren' of Christ." (Commentary on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin's Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, vol. I, p. 107}

Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

"There have been certain strange folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent his angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this, our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second. Thus we see the intention of the Holy Spirit. This is why to lend ourselves to foolish subtleties would be to abuse holy scripture...." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

"Concerning what has happened since this birth the writer of the gospel says nothing...certainly it is a matter about which no one will cause dispute unless he is somewhat curious; on the contrary there never was a man who would contradict this in obstinacy unless he were a pig-headed and fatuous [i.e. foolish and stupid] person." (Commentary on Matthew 1:25)

“In the first place, he brings forward the Apostles He then adds, “Nay, even the brethren of the Lord themselves also make use of it without hesitation — nay more, Peter himself, to whom the first place is assigned by consent of all, allows himself the same liberty.” By the brethren of the Lord, he means John and James, who were accounted pillars, as he states elsewhere. (Galatians 2:9.) And, agreeably to what is customary in Scripture, he gives the name of brethren to those who were connected with Him by relationship.” (When addressing 1 Corinthians 9:5)

“Who this James was, deserves inquiry. Almost all the ancients are agreed that he was one of the disciples, whose surname was “Oblias” and “The Just,” and that he presided over the church at Jerusalem. Yet others think that he was the son of Joseph by another wife, and others (which is more probable) that he was the cousin of Christ by the mother’s side: but as he is here mentioned among the apostles, I do not hold that opinion. Nor is there any force in the defense offered by Jerome, that the word Apostle is sometimes applied to others besides the twelve; for the subject under consideration is the highest rank of apostleship, and we shall presently see that he was considered one of the chief pillars (Galatians 2:9). It appears to me, therefore, far more probable, that the person of whom he is speaking is the son of Alpheus.” (Regarding Galatians 1:19)

Regarding the Luke 1:34 Commentary, this is an auto-translation of the text. I am out of my league here as I do not know French, but I will add the auto-transcribed French Text Below. It seems to differ a tad from the one previously posted. But a question? Could this possibly be dealing with the thought that Mary pre-vowed celibacy within a marriage prior to the Lords appearing to her? (As contrasted with the idea that she was looking to the future.) Notice how he goes on to say that the mockery would arise by having done so and at the same time confessing she was betrothed. If so, this would align better with Calvin's other comments. And if so, is there room to say that this is not directly dealing with if she had relations post-Jesus' birth? Maybe also possibly in light of Calvin's continued use of "Virgin & Holy Virgin" to describe her.

"34. How will this happen?
It seems here that the Holy Virgin limits and lowers God's power just as Zachariah had done, for she considers impossible what she sees as beyond the natural order of things. And here is how she concludes: "I do not know a man; how, then, could I believe that what you announce to me could happen?" Now, we must not torment ourselves too much to fully justify her reaction: for it is certain that she ought, by faith, to rise immediately to the infinite power of God, which is not bound by natural means but surpasses all. Yet, instead of doing so, she focuses on the common and natural way of conception. ... conceive. However, it must be understood that she did not doubt or reply as if she wished to diminish or measure God’s power according to the capacity of her natural senses: she was merely surprised and struck with sudden admiration, and thus moved to ask this question. And indeed, that she received the promise in humility is clear, for although many things could have prevented her from believing or taken away her faith, she nevertheless does not doubt in any way. She could not immediately think in her mind to ask where David’s throne was, seeing that she did not find the majesty of that reign, which was abolished, and all the grandeur and excellence of the royal estate as if buried. There is no doubt that, had she judged according to the flesh, she would have regarded all that the Angel said as a fable. Yet it must have been that she was quite certain and assured in herself of the restoration of the Church, which caused her to believe quickly and not as something incredible according to the flesh. And then it is true, as the prophecy said, just as then, that God promised to bring forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, which was so abased and almost unknown, Isa. 11:1. Thus, faith and assurance in God’s grace imprinted on the Virgin’s heart caused her to believe without difficulty what the Angel told her—that David’s throne would be rebuilt. If someone objects that there was indeed a prophecy explicitly saying that a Virgin would bear a son, I respond that the understanding of this mystery was still rather obscure at that time. It is true that the Fathers were awaiting the birth of a King under whom the people of God would flourish and prosper greatly, but the manner by which this would be accomplished remained hidden from them, as if a veil obscured it. It is therefore not surprising that the Holy Virgin hesitated over something that was still unknown to her. As for what some have thought of these words, that she had in herself had taken a vow of perpetual virginity, it is too weak a conjecture, indeed entirely absurd: for if this had been the case, it would have been deceitful and an act of confessing that she was promised to a husband; and it would have been a contempt for the sacred bond of marriage, which cannot occur without mocking God. Whatever barbaric tyranny may have reigned in the papacy in this matter, they have never gone so far as to allow married women to live as they please. Moreover, it is too childish and implausible a fantasy to imagine a vow of celibacy among the Jews. It is necessary to answer this objection, namely, that the Virgin was looking to the future, and thus seems to say that she will never have the company of a man. Now here is a conjecture that is both plausible and simple: it is that the greatness, or rather the majesty, of this matter so astonished the Virgin that all her senses were as though bound and enclosed in admiration. When she heard it said that the Son of God would be born, she immediately imagined that this would be some great masterpiece: and this is why she excluded the company of a man. And being entirely astonished, she said to herself, How will this happen? For this reason as well, the Lord supports her with great kindness and responds to her gently and lovingly through the Angel, given that, in all reverence and sobriety, and with admiration for such a divine work, she had asked how what she heard—which was above the natural order—would come to pass. In sum, her question was not contrary to faith: rather, it arose from great admiration, not from doubt."

“34. Comment se fera ceci?
Il semble ici que la sainte Vierge restreint & abaisse la puissance de Dieu aussi bas qu’avait fait Zacharie : car elle prend pour impossible ce qu’elle voit être outre l’ordre commun de nature. Et voici comme elle conclut, Je ne connais point d’homme : comment donc croirais-je que la chose que tu m’annonces puisse avenir? Or il ne nous faut pas beaucoup tourmenter à trouver façon de la justifier entièrement : car il est certain qu’elle devait par foi monter incontinent jusques à la puissance infinie de Dieu, laquelle n’est point liée aux moyens naturels, mais surmonte tout le monde. Mais en lieu de faire ainsi, elle s’arrête à la façon commune & naturelle d’engendrer. ... engendrer. Combien qu'il faut cependant entendre qu'elle n'a point douté ou répliqué, comme si elle eût voulu abaisser ou mesurer la puissance de Dieu selon la capacité de ses sens naturels : seulement elle est surprise & dépourvue d'une admiration soudaine, & ainsi transportée à faire cette demande. Et de fait, qu'elle ait reçu la promesse en humilité, il apparaît par ce que combien que beaucoup de choses pouvaient l'empêcher de croire ou lui ôter cette foi, toutes fois elle ne fait douter ni en aucun point. Il n'y pouvait incontinent venir en l'esprit, de demander où est le trône de David, vu en quoi elle ne trouvait pas la majesté de ce règne étant abolie, & toute cette grandeur & excellence du royal état comme ensevelie. Il n'y a point de doute que si elle eût pris les choses selon le jugement de la chair, elle eût tenu pour fable tout ce que l'Ange dit. Et pourtant il faut qu'elle ait été bien certaine & bien assurée en foy-même de la restauration de l'Église : ce qui était cause de lui faire croire vite & non incroyable selon la chair. Et puis il est vray, d'autant que la prophétie l'a dit ainsi, toute comme lors, par laquelle Dieu promettait de faire sortir un surgeon de la souche d'Isaï, qui était tant abaissée, & quasi inconnue, Isaï. 11.1. Ainsi donc, la foy & l'assurance de la grâce de Dieu impute au cœur de la Vierge, a été cause de lui faire croire sans difficulté ce que l'Ange lui dit que le trône de David serait derechef réédifié. Si quelqu'un allègue qu’il bien y avait-il une "Pro" prophétie, laquelle dit nommément qu'une Vierge enfantera un fils : je réponds que la cognition de ce mystère eût bien été forte obscure lors. Vray est que les Pères respectaient la naissance d’un Roy, sous lequel le peuple de Dieu devait fort & prospérer : mais quand au moyen par lequel cela s'accomplirait, il leur était caché, comme s'il y eut un voile entre eux qui leur en ôtât la claire cognition. Ce n'est donc point merveille si la sainte Vierge faisait douter sur une chose qui lui était incongnue encore. Quant à ce qu'aucuns ont pensé par ces paroles, qu'elle avait en foy-même ... ... fait vœu de perpétuelle virginité, c’est une conjecture trop légère, voire du tout absurde : car si ainsi eût été, c’eût été tromperie & acte de confesser qu’elle fût promise à un mari : & c’était mépriser la sainte alliance de mariage : ce qui ne se peut faire sans moquerie de Dieu. Quelque barbarie tyrannique qui ait régné en la papauté en cette matière, il est-ce que jamais ils ne se sont de désordre jusques-là, de permettre aux femmes mariées de vivre contenues à leur plaisir. Davantage, c’est une rêverie trop puérile & sans apparence, d’imaginer un vœu de monière entre les Juifs. Il faut toutefois répondre à cette objection, c’est à savoir que la Vierge regarde au temps à venir, & pourtant semble dire qu’elle n’aura jamais compagnie d’homme. Or voici une conjecture qui est & vraisemblable & simple : c’est que la grandeur, ou plutôt la majesté de cet affaire a tellement étonné la Vierge, qu’elle a eu toutes ses sens comme liés & enfermés d’admiration. Quand elle ouït dire que le Fils de Dieu naîtra, soudain elle imagine bien que ce sera quelque chef d’œuvre : & voilà pourquoi elle exclut la compagnie d’homme : & étant toute étonnée, elle se fier dit disant, Comment se fera ceci ? Pour ce aussi le Seigneur la supporte d’une grande débonnaireté, & lui répond par l’Ange doucement & amiablement, d’autant qu’en toute révérence & sobriété, & avec admiration d’une telle œuvre de Dieu, elle avait demandé comme se ferait ce qu’elle avait ouï être plus haut que l’ordre commun de nature. Somme, sa demande n’était point repugnante à la foi : car elle procédait plutôt d’une grande admiration, que de défiance. »
 
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Matthew,

If you haven't already, can you articulate what you believe is the difference between your hermeneutical approach and that of those of us who are holding to a contrary view?
 
Matthew,

If you haven't already, can you articulate what you believe is the difference between your hermeneutical approach and that of those of us who are holding to a contrary view?

It is not so much an approach as a framework. Different people have their filters through which they interpret information, and they do so according to particular "patterns." The interpretation of one thing affects whether one is open to accepting something else. If one is already predisposed to think in terms of what is normal for marriage, and accustomed to reading the Gospels "naturally," one will then argue particular views with regards to "until" and "brethren" in terms of that framework. I understand it full well. That was also my default setting within modern evangelical circles. The value of the catholic and reformed tradition is that it enlarges your circle and gives you the ability to consider other things. Then the evidence which convinces another person will not be so persuasive, especially when one sees the different way those things can be understood.
 
It is not so much an approach as a framework. Different people have their filters through which they interpret information, and they do so according to particular "patterns." The interpretation of one thing affects whether one is open to accepting something else. If one is already predisposed to think in terms of what is normal for marriage, and accustomed to reading the Gospels "naturally," one will then argue particular views with regards to "until" and "brethren" in terms of that framework. I understand it full well. That was also my default setting within modern evangelical circles. The value of the catholic and reformed tradition is that it enlarges your circle and gives you the ability to consider other things. Then the evidence which convinces another person will not be so persuasive, especially when one sees the different way those things can be understood.
Are you saying that those who don't believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary are doing so because they (wrongly?) believe that a normal marriage includes sexual relations? And does the catholic and reformed tradition include the possibility that a normal marriage does not necessarily include such?
 
Yes, but if we are to look at something in light of their other writings, what do we do when it seems overwhelmingly he holds a certain position even contrary to a single instance elsewhere?
There is nothing to be reconciled with what he says elsewhere. It is not contrary information. It is additional information -- additional information which some are not willing to see because contrary to what they would like to believe Calvin held on the subject.
See my comments in #297. I think you are both missing my point: Calvin seems very careful to not hold either position (see below from what you've quoted) - which is why it seems both sides are trying to coopt him to their position:
"No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words..."
"What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us..."
"No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation."
"For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards..."
"Concerning what has happened since this birth the writer of the gospel says nothing..."

As an aside, I'm curious as to the use of AI and auto-translators - it gives me the feeling that if you don't like the existing English translation you are going to a bit of effort to find/create one that better fits your position. I'm sure I am wrong, but, at the same time, what is wrong with the existing translations of Calvin?
AI translator -- as is; no changes:
Regarding the Luke 1:34 Commentary, this is an auto-translation of the text. I am out of my league here as I do not know French, but I will add the auto-transcribed French Text Below.
 
See my comments in #297. I think you are both missing my point: Calvin seems very careful to not hold either position (see below from what you've quoted) - which is why it seems both sides are trying to coopt him to their position:






As an aside, I'm curious as to the use of AI and auto-translators - it gives me the feeling that if you don't like the existing English translation you are going to a bit of effort to find/create one that better fits your position. I'm sure I am wrong, but, at the same time, what is wrong with the existing translations of Calvin?
The thing with an AI translation, is, it is impartial. I cant alter it, nor would I have if it matches the English translation 100%. But what it may allow is to possibly see discrepancies to potential biases given a translators own theological convictions.

Like for me, looking up the French, and I could be wrong here, seems to highlight the idea that Calvin, in light of his other writings, regarding Luk. 1:34, is not talking about the absurdity of a perpetual virgin Mary, but that it would be absurd to think that Mary would have preemptively gone into a marriage with the plan of celibacy, even before the Angels appearing to her. Which seems to line up, as one of the theories is that Mary betrothed Joseph solely for protection, even before she knew she would birth the Savior.
 
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You simply can't conceive that anybody in their right mind would think otherwise. Calvin knew Matt. 1:25 just as well as you do and came to a different conclusion, so your "obvious" reading was not so obvious to him.
Exactly. I would also like to add that Calvin was an excellent scholar and could read Greek just as well as French. If there was something in the text to clearly indicate that Mary would later lose her virginity, he would have been the first person to believe it. Anyone who knows Calvin knows he had no problem whatsoever going against tradition when he saw it at conflict with scripture. This is a guy who not only defied Catholic tradition but was later at odds with protestant "tradition" (i.e Luther). Calvin was a giant of our faith, and I put more stock in his opinions than in anyone else's except for that of the Apostles.
 
I would also like to add that Calvin was an excellent scholar and could read Greek just as well as French.

Anyone who knows Calvin knows he had no problem whatsoever going against tradition when he saw it at conflict with scripture.

While I disagree with what I understand Calvin (or any other luminary) that either outright promoted or allowed for PV, I would just like to add here that no one disputes any of these things you posted.
 
While I disagree with what I understand Calvin (or any other luminary) that either outright promoted or allowed for PV, I would just like to add here that no one disputes any of these things you posted.
I take exception. He was a man of his age. He had his blind spots as well as any of us, and that he would start with the Tradition and affirm it is illustrative of that.
 
I take exception. He was a man of his age. He had his blind spots as well as any of us, and that he would start with the Tradition and affirm it is illustrative of that.

What is wrong with everyone's ability to understand communication in this thread?

Yes he had his blind spots and yes he started with tradition and thereby he affirmed PV - which I disagree with while still affirming @Alive in Christ 's points that he was an excellent Greek scholar and he had no problem going against tradition when it contradicted Scripture as he understood it barring blind spots as do we all as you point out.
 
Look at this thread to see how attitudes towards sex and marriage come into focus when examining this question. It is obvious that there are a range of issues at work here and these colour the way one reads and interprets the Scriptures. Different attitudes assume different things.

No matter what we think about the perpetual virginity of Mary, I think it's obvious that we live in a sex-saturated society and we bring our culture into how we read many Scripture texts, not just this one.

Our modern emphasis on sexuality is of fairly recent origin, and has become so dominant that what used to be considered normal in earlier generations of men waiting to marry until they were professionally secure and could be good providers is now used to question the sexual orientation of men who waited until later in life to marry. Likewise, women "keeping themselves pure" is today quite rare, and we have to assume that most adult converts, and a significant number of young people raised in sound conservative churches, have had major moral failures that in previous generations would have marked them as women who would likely remain single for life. Today's evangelical churches are much more willing to accept sincere repentance from sin, which is good, but also far too willing to accept claims of repentance that may not be sincere. Churches that insist on God's standards for marriage and family get attacked as legalists and many people, even in evangelical circles, find it very difficult to believe that anyone would be able to remain a virgin or celibate more than a few years past high school.

Look, for example, at the nonsense calling into question J. Gresham Machen's sexuality. There is documented evidence that, as an upper-class son of East Coast wealth and privilege, he was very much interested in a woman from a similar background but he and his mother both, quite correctly so, believed they should not marry because she was a Unitarian. Beyond that, when the controversy over Machen's sexuality broke out a few years ago, I wrote regarding my personal knowledge of reports by Rev. Edwin Elliott, the deceased editor of Christian Observer, and his father who was also a Southern Presbyterian minister, that they knew a woman from a Southern Presbyterian background who had told Machen that she had other suitors and he needed to decide if he was going to propose marriage, or not. When he didn't, she accepted another man's proposal. She was apparently still living when the younger of the two Elliotts was a young man and her prior relationship with J. Gresham Machen was known in Virginia Presbyterian circles, though quiet. Obviously there are issues of prudence in saying that a woman once was being courted by a prominent man but married someone else.

A hundred years ago, nobody would have seriously questioned why a man from Machen's background would not start looking for a wife until he had completed his education and had become professionally secure in academia, and even then, would only marry a woman of comparable social background. Let's be honest, it's not like there were a huge number of "fighting fundies" among the upper-crust elite of the East Coast. Likewise, most people would have understood that religious incompatibility was at least as much of a problem as social class incompatibility, and for conservative Christians, much worse of a problem.

Our modern culture places such a high priority on sexuality that the older understanding of marriage and courtship, which was widely understood in the 1800s and largely unquestioned until the "Roaring 20s" and the rise of the "flappers," is today viewed as so strange that men who didn't have sexual relationships with women at a relatively young age get accused of being closet homosexuals, and the widespread acceptance of single unmarried "spinsters" living together in previous generations gets misinterpreted as lesbianism.

The culture of the Victorian era is not ours, and in a lot of ways that's a good thing. The concept of "star crossed lovers" who were not allowed to marry because of culture and class differences, or opposition of extended families, was a major theme of literature in earlier generations. Even in modern cinema, go watch Downton Abbey and you'll see a fictionalized portrayal of very real problems when people from the upper crust of society fell in love with people who were not considered to be an "appropriate match" for all sorts of reasons, most of which had no basis in God's Word.

(Two examples: my wife could not stop laughing when the widowed mother of the Earl made the comment that because of all the other problematic relationships in her family, one of her granddaughters marrying a journalist wasn't the worst thing that could happen. Also, the comment that if the eldest daughter couldn't find a man because of her rumored prior dalliance, which was actually true and not a rumor, they should take some time to vacation in Italy because Italian men are "not so picky.")

But while the Victorian era had many moral views that added to the requirements of Scripture, our modern sex-saturated society is far worse in many ways. Rather than adding to the biblical standards, today's culture takes a jackhammer to what is left of our Christian foundations.
 
It is not so much an approach as a framework. Different people have their filters through which they interpret information, and they do so according to particular "patterns."

I have made note of this as well, particularly on the subject of baptism. If one is honest, I think, inconsistencies can be identified within any cognitive or theological framework, for which due allowance should be made.
 
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