WCF vs LBCF

[Matthew1344]

The terms "active and passive obedience" have been treated differently by different writers, so confusion is to be expected. I take it as looking at all of Christ's life from two perspectives:He was always fulfilling the law (active), and he was always prepared to be the perfect sacrifice (passive).

Can you elaborate more on this?
How was he prepared?

My line of thinking before I read this was
Passive obedience: Christ always suffering the consequences of sin, especially at the cross, and defeating them at the cross.

But now I'm thinking I was way off.

 

[VictorBravo]

Can you elaborate more on this?
How was he prepared?

I was meaning only that he was always ready, from eternity in the covenant of redemption. I'm thinking of Hebrews 7 and Psalm 110: "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

The Father speaks to the Son, upon an oath, that he would be and always is, the perfect sacrifice. God's oath is what made him the true High Priest who sacrifices, and the sacrifice itself. Although Christ was perfect on earth in all he did with regard to the law, this is not what Hebrews says made him the Priest. God's oath secures that for all his people.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: )
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[Matthew1344]

So you are saying his passive obedience is an eternal obedience, not only obedience that was accomplished in the flesh.

If this is the case then what my definition is is totally wrong.

So you are saying passive obedience is "being prepared to be a sacrifice".?

 

[KMK]

In general, understanding that there is overlap, Christ's passive obedience has to do with our need to have the guilt of sin removed, and Christ's active obedience has to do with our need for righteousness. But, I hesitate to spend too much time on this distinction simply because the Bible doesn't. The only reason it seems to come up is because some overemphasize one to the exclusion of the other.

 

[Matthew1344]

The only reason it seems to come up is because some overemphasize one to the exclusion of the other.

I just want to know what they are ha.

Active obedience- doing the will of the father
Passive obedience-????

So many reformers and puritans have talked about this in their writings and i cant understand what any are saying. I thought I did until Victor said:

The terms "active and passive obedience" have been treated differently by different writers, so confusion is to be expected. I take it as looking at all of Christ's life from two perspectives: He was always fulfilling the law (active), and he was always prepared to be the perfect sacrifice (passive).

Im not seeing how this:

I was meaning only that he was always ready, from eternity in the covenant of redemption. I'm thinking of Hebrews 7 and Psalm 110: "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

The Father speaks to the Son, upon an oath, that he would be and always is, the perfect sacrifice. God's oath is what made him the true High Priest who sacrifices, and the sacrifice itself. Although Christ was perfect on earth in all he did with regard to the law, this is not what Hebrews says made him the Priest. God's oath secures that for all his people.

matches up and goes with any of this:

LBCF — Chapter XI: Of Justification
1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.

Or he gospel coalition website.

[We cannot] allocate certain phases or acts of our Lord’s life on earth to the active obedience and certain other phases and acts to the passive obedience. The distinction between the active and passive obedience is not a distinction of periods. It is our Lord’s whole work of obedience in every phase and period that is described as active and passive, and we must avoid the mistake of thinking that the active obedience applies to the obedience of his life and the passive obedience to the obedience of his final sufferings and death.

The real use and purpose of the formula is to emphasize the two distinct aspects of our Lord’s vicarious obedience. The truth expressed rests upon the recognition that the law of God has both penal sanctions and positive demands. It demands not only the full discharge of its precepts but also the infliction of penalty for all infractions and shortcomings. It is this twofold demand of the law of God which is taken into account when we speak of the active and passive obedience of Christ. Christ as the vicar of his people came under the curse and condemnation due to sin and he also fulfilled the law of God in all its positive requirements. In other words, he took care of the guilt of sin and perfectly fulfilled the demands of righteousness. He perfectly met both the penal and the preceptive requirements of God’s law. The passive obedience refers to the former and the active obedience to the latter. (pp. 20-22)

especially the LBCF Commentary

His passive obedience refers to receiving the penalty of the law (God’s just wrath for those he purchased), as if he had broken the Law.

 

[MW]

James Buchanan (Justification, p. 307):

Divines have generally made a distinction between what is called the active and passive obedience of Christ; and this distinction is both legitimate and useful, when it is correctly understood, and judiciously applied. It is not to be interpreted as if it meant, that His passive obedience consisted in mere suffering, or that His active obedience consisted in mere service; for it implies obedience in both, and excludes suffering from neither. Nor is it to be interpreted as if it meant, that the two might be so separated from each other, as to admit of His mere sufferings being imputed to us, without any part of His obedience; for if His death be reckoned to us at all, it must necessarily include both the pains which He endured, and the obedience which he rendered, in dying. But the distinction may be understood in a sense which serves to discriminate, merely, one part of His work from another, without destroying their indissoluble union; and to exhibit them in the relation which they severally bear to the penal and preceptive requirements of the divine Law. That Law required the punishment of sin, and in the sufferings and death of Christ we see its penalty fulfilled; it required also perfect righteousness, and in the lifelong obedience of Christ, – but especially in His death as the crowning act of His obedience, – we see its precept fulfilled; and by thus connecting His penal sufferings with the evil desert of sin, and His vicarious obedience with the righteousness which the Law requires, we are enabled to apprehend more clearly our need of both, and also the suitableness and fulness of the provision which has thus been made for our acceptance with God.

In both the life and death of our Surety, active obedience was obedience to the precepts of the law and passive obedience was obedience to the penalties of the law. This in its unity constitutes the righteousness which is imputed to believers for their justification.

 

[Matthew1344]

Thank you Matthew!

 

[Matthew1344]

we see its precept fulfilled; and by thus connecting His penal sufferings with the evil desert of sin, and His vicarious obedience with the righteousness which the Law requires, we are enabled to apprehend more clearly our need of both, and also the suitableness and fulness of the provision which has thus been made for our acceptance with God.

this helped alot

 

[Matthew1344]

LBCF — Chapter XI: Of Justification
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Why did they change what the WCF said?

WCF — Chapter XI: Of Justification
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may by their sins fall under God's Fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Why in the world would they say "usually"?

 

[KMK]

LBCF — Chapter XI: Of Justification
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Why did they change what the WCF said?

WCF — Chapter XI: Of Justification
5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may by their sins fall under God's Fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Why in the world would they say "usually"?

The 1689 follows the wording of the Savoy in this place. I assume they simply wanted to leave room for exceptions to the rule. Again, the confessions do not disagree in any substantive way.

 

[Matthew1344]

Thanks Ken!
That is what I was thinking.

Why did they change EVERYTHING in ch 15?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

American evangelicals broadly conceived, who are alive today, have no experience of a church-world in which Baptists were a vanishingly small minority. They were in 17th century England; supplemented in outward ritual similarity by but a few Anabaptist sects on the continent, considered to be "fringe" by the great established-church scene. Today, upon America's vast religious landscape, Baptists dominate the evangelical end of the spectrum, and are supplemented not only by Anabaptist sects, but also the substantial Pentecostal stream. How hard it is to relate to the time when the practices and the hermeneutics of the Baptists were not mainstream by any means.

To understand much about the amendments (major and minor) of the WCF by the English Baptists, we need to put the creation of the LBCF into its historical setting. In regard to the WCF, a rather large Assembly of theologians met under official auspices to craft a statement of faith for the Church in the Isles. After them, a handful of dissenting divines--with the intent of maintaining before mankind 1) the general consent of their theology with the wider church; and 2) their distinctives, which necessarily followed from their more penetrating insight than that of the majority--presented the LBCF.

So, the LBCF is marked not only by its specific differences in theology and practice. But also by numerous other minor "improvements" in language and emphasis, which are the product of the particular concerns of this much smaller body of laborers and approvers of its doctrines. Most Baptists (who are not "trail-of-blood" types, or Anabaptist in sympathy) who see themselves as belonging in some sense to the wider stream of the Reformation, believe that their forefathers further purified the first work of the initial reformers, the 16th century giants like Luther and Calvin. Naturally, then, it only stands to reason that in numerous places the terms of the WCF could and should be refined according to the wisdom of these clear-eyed editors.

 

[Matthew1344]

1. Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life.

So I read this and some commentary here. I know that they took this from the Savoy, and that John Owen had a big part in that, but I do not understand what they are saying.

When I read this it seems like God only saves older people. Why would they choose this language?

The commentary says this:

“The Confession makes this out of a desire to distinguish repentance as a crisis experience from repentance as an ordinary grace. All believers are marked by ordinary grace, but not all believers will know, or need to know, repentance as a crisis experience.”[9]
This is saying that not everyone has a huge experience when they are saved.

I guess I just dont understand the english...
Such of the elect...such what of the elect?
Repentance unto life... is this different than the repentance unto salvation in section 2?

Can anybody help me out on this one?

 

[Matthew1344]

1. Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life.

So I read this and some commentary here. I know that they took this from the Savoy, and that John Owen had a big part in that, but I do not understand what they are saying.

When I read this it seems like God only saves older people. Why would they choose this language?

The commentary says this:

“The Confession makes this out of a desire to distinguish repentance as a crisis experience from repentance as an ordinary grace. All believers are marked by ordinary grace, but not all believers will know, or need to know, repentance as a crisis experience.”[9]
This is saying that not everyone has a huge experience when they are saved.

I guess I just dont understand the english...
Such of the elect...such what of the elect?
Repentance unto life... is this different than the repentance unto salvation in section 2?

Can anybody help me out on this one?

 

[KMK]

Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life.

Replace 'such' with 'those'. The point is that some believe from their youth and don't have the same kind of conversion experience as the Apostle Paul, for example.

 

[Matthew1344]

LBCF — Chapter XVII: Of the Perseverance of the Saints

1. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.

without repentance? I dont see how this goes with the paragraph. Can anybody help me out on this one? What are they saying by this phrase?

 

[Matthew1344]

Nevermind! IT is saying that God is not going to change his mind "repent" about who he has chosen to elect, call, justify, glorify.

 

[Matthew1344]

LBCF — Chapter XIX: Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

These are the proof texts.

1 Gen. 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.;

Eccles. 7:29
See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

Being made upright and created in the image of God means that the moral law is written on your heart?

 

[KMK]

LBCF — Chapter XIX: Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

These are the proof texts.

1 Gen. 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.;

Eccles. 7:29
See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

Being made upright and created in the image of God means that the moral law is written on your heart?

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: *15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) Rom 3:14,15

The words of the confession are often taken straight from the KJV. If you are not already, it might be helpful to study the confessions using the KJV.