When were Gods elect Justified?
- Thread starter The Lamb
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Jeff, It doesn't? Can the ungodly have faith? The scripture says He justifies the ungodly, this is what is causing me some tension here brother.
The position I see does not make faith a condition in and of itself either.
Is there a difference in saying we are justified by His impute righteousness, vs justified by faith?
Yes this is the classic position. But does God impute waiting for Himself to give us the gift of faith? Or does He impute then gives us the gift of faith, which lays hold of the promises Christ. I am leaning towards the latter.
Can faith be both a means and a gift?
Jeff, I will thank you again for demonstrating charity in this discussion.
In His Grace
Joseph
We are not in any way justified before God if there is an absence of faith. Faith is necessary and required in order for justification to be applied to us. One cannot be declared right with God if he has not believed in Christ.
So justification never precedes faith.
Phillip
So justification never precedes faith.
Phillip
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Amen
Yes, the ungodly can have faith. The ordo salutis is very helpful here:
Election--> Regeneration --> Faith/Repentance --> Justification/Adoption --> Sanctification --> Glorification
Regeneration is the work of the Spirit. It produces faith and repentance both the gifts of God. Faith is the necessary instrument for receiving righteousness. That is why Paul says that Abraham believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness, and that he was justified as ungodly:
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works (Rom. 4:5)
Repentance is a gracious gift of God (in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth) that is a necessary concomittant of faith:
Although repentance be not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, (Ezek. 36:31"“32, Ezek. 16:61"“63) which is the act of God´s free grace in Christ; (Hos. 14:2,4, Rom. 3:24, Eph. 1:7) yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. (Luke 13:3,5, Acts 17:30"“31) (WCF 15.3)
Faith is the means by which the righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21, among other passages) is imputed to us:
for Christ´s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, (Rom. 4:5"“8, 2 Cor. 5:19,21, Rom. 3:22,24"“25,27"“28, Tit. 3:5,7, Eph. 1:7, Jer. 23:6, 1 Cor. 1:30"“31, Rom. 5:17"“19) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God. (Acts 10:44, Gal. 2:16, Phil. 3:9, Acts 13:38"“39, Eph. 2:7"“8) (WCF 11.1)
Yes. We are justified by faith instrumentally, that is, there is no merit whatsoever in the faith itself. WCF 11.1 makes that perfectly clear. So does the "reckoned" language of Romans 4. Faith is the antithesis of a work. If faith as a substance justified us, it would be a work. It is not. It would also be unjust of God to ignore sin. Faith does not atone for sin. Faith merely allows us access to the atonement. We are justified on the grounds of the atoning work of Christ. Faith is the conduit to that righteousness and sin-bearer.
Originally posted by The Lamb
Yes this is the classic position. But does God impute waiting for Himself to give us the gift of faith? Or does He impute then gives us the gift of faith, which lays hold of the promises Christ. I am leaning towards the latter.
Can faith be both a means and a gift?
Joseph
God does not impute faith. He imputes the righteousness of Christ to us, and our sin to Christ. That is why we are not justified eternally. We are decreed to justification, but we can in no sense be justified, because faith does not provide the grounds of justification. Christ's merit does. The most helpful means to think about is the Covenant of Work/Grace paradigm. Christ provided atonement and righteousness, but that does not actually justify any, until the work is applied (imputed) to the sinner. God gives us faith, but that does not justify. We are justified when the work of Christ is applied to us upon believing (faith).
Another way to think about this is in Trinitarian terms. (Here Owen is priceless, perhaps the most thoroughly Trinitarian theologian ever - with only Calvin perhaps as a rival)
If we were justified eternally, that would mean that the work of the Son and Spirit was secondary. That is, it would be enough that the Father decree. If we were justified at the cross, then that would make the work of the Spirit secondary; that is, the application of the work by faith (a work of the Spirit and His means, the Word; cf. WSC 24: "Question: How Doth Christ Execute the Office of a Prophet? Answer: Christ Executeth the Office of a Prophet, in Revealing to Us, by His Word and Spirit, the Will of God for Our Salvation")
It would also be helpful to review Owen's comments in Vol 3 on the Holy Spirit and regeneration.
You do make the exception for infants I assume though? All I am trying to do is extend that belief to cover all whom are justified. In this way there is no exception Phillip.
And I believe Scripture warrants where I am leaning. I am not taking faith out of the salvation and life of the elect, I am believing that it is the result of justification
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I misunderstood. I agree Lamb.
[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Scott Bushey]
***You do make the exception for infants ***
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely." Psalm 58:3-5
I do not think that there are any exceptions.
andreas.
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely." Psalm 58:3-5
I do not think that there are any exceptions.
andreas.
Originally posted by andreas
***You do make the exception for infants ***
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely." Psalm 58:3-5
I do not think that there are any exceptions.
andreas.
I agree andreas, we cannot make any exceptions ok. That is why I believe the Scriupture warrants believing that Justification preceedes faith.
If faith is a gift of God's grace given to us, then what prevents Him from giving faith to an infant?
There is no exception.
Without and before faith no one is justified.
If you don't believe me, re-read Fred's and Joshua's excellent posts. They leave no room for doubt and give no reason at all to hold on the false notion that any one of God's elect is justified without or before faith.
Phillip
There is no exception.
Without and before faith no one is justified.
If you don't believe me, re-read Fred's and Joshua's excellent posts. They leave no room for doubt and give no reason at all to hold on the false notion that any one of God's elect is justified without or before faith.
Phillip
Originally posted by The Lamb
Originally posted by andreas
***You do make the exception for infants ***
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely." Psalm 58:3-5
I do not think that there are any exceptions.
andreas.
I agree andreas, we cannot make any exceptions ok. That is why I believe the Scriupture warrants believing that Justification preceedes faith.
Scripture makes no such warrant. You are taking an exceptional and Biblically unclear case and wreaking havoc with the work of the Holy Spirit. In essence, you make Him superfluous, since application of redemption is not necessary to salvation.
Any infants that are saved are saved by the grace of God, through the granting of faith. We do not know what form that faith takes. The Bible does not tell us. It is vain and dangerous to speculate as such. You have taken a extrabiblical extrapolation and used it to throw out the otherwise clear testimony of Scripture, and the unanimous position of the Reformational creeds.
Scott,
This is not the position of the Reformers, or the Bible. I don't think it is your position either, if you think about it. You've made many posts on this subject. Do you not agree with the following:
1. Infants are not saved apart from faith
2. The faith of infants is the gift of God
3. We cannot precisely determine exactly what such faith looks like in comparison to that of adults.
4. All elect infants are saved by God through faith, not all infants regardless of elect status.
Correct?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Fred,
Correct. I misunderstood.
The exception I make is that elect infants dying in infancy, the Lord goes to and regenerates and justifies.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Correct. I misunderstood.
The exception I make is that elect infants dying in infancy, the Lord goes to and regenerates and justifies.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Fred,
Not to hijack the thread, but I did appreciate this statement!
"Yes, the ungodly can have faith."
Not to hijack the thread, but I did appreciate this statement!
"Yes, the ungodly can have faith."
Thanks!!
I knew we were in the same place. I just wanted to make it plain for everyone.
Joseph, hopefully you see this now. Again, I suggest that before you think about this any more, you read Owen's Volume 3-4 on the Holy Spirit and Calvin on the Holy Spirit and the nature of regeneration in his Institutes.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Ditto to Fred.
The ordo salutis is the unbreakable chain.
What some do is mix the decree of God (virtual justification) with the outworking of the means and instrument (actual justification). It is important NOT to do that.
Ditto to Fred again.
The ordo salutis is the unbreakable chain.
What some do is mix the decree of God (virtual justification) with the outworking of the means and instrument (actual justification). It is important NOT to do that.
Ditto to Fred again.
Originally posted by joshua
How 'bout some Dittos for the common man!
Gotta earn them dittos, boy!
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Ditto to Joshua.
Ready:
Ready:
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Josh,
You did an excellent job in this thread, if I do say so myself.
You did an excellent job in this thread, if I do say so myself.
Originally posted by joshua
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by joshua
How 'bout some Dittos for the common man!
Gotta earn them dittos, boy!
Are you saying I didn't? Are you implying that I didn't mention the correct order of events before you did? Huh? Huh? I see how it is. My posts are just ignored!!!! WHAT AM I? INVISIBLE?
Hey, who said that!?!
Is this becoming a puritan head pep rally?
All of you have been quite charitable towards me and this delima of understanding I am having. Only by Gods grace can this happen.
I am not done having this dialogue thpugh, but since our daughter has 5 frends spending the night, and they are up at 5;30 am, I am wanting for time to prepare my comments.
In His Grace
Joseph
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by The Lamb]
All of you have been quite charitable towards me and this delima of understanding I am having. Only by Gods grace can this happen.
I am not done having this dialogue thpugh, but since our daughter has 5 frends spending the night, and they are up at 5;30 am, I am wanting for time to prepare my comments.
In His Grace
Joseph
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by The Lamb]
Nothing prevents him from giving faith to an infant, but what definition of faith is given? Does the infant believe? Scripture does not allow us to become dogmtic about infant salvation since there is no biblical warrant that I can find where an infant is said to have faith or believe. I believe they are saved exactly like an adult. By the blood of Christ.
In His grace
Joseph
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The same definition of the faith given you or I is the faith gven the infant. According to scripture, all heavenbound individuals, this to include the elect infant MUST believe, and by Gods grace, they will. The scriptural warrant is there; Unless of course you are prepared to rule out every infant dying in infancy.
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Actually I have looked for it Scott. This is why I believe scripture alloows for one to be justified before faith. I am ruling nothing out. I am not agreeing with Calvin and some that all infants are saved, nor am I agreeing with the "All infants of elect parents" are saved. Where and when do the believe? Anyway, I do not want to digress into infant salvation here, but when and where do they believe? Is it after death? The issue at hand is Justifiaction before God.
I recently read of something called subjective justification at the cross and objective justification by faith. I need to digest it further.
In His Grace
Joseph
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Why do you believe an infant can't believe? To be specific, it is 'Elect infants dying in infancy...' The neccesary inference is there in the scriptures. We know God elects. Assuredly he elects infants (even). We cannot conclude that since an infant cannot believe like we would expect, or according to what we undrerstand belief to be, that all infants then, perish. God comes to the elect infant, regenerates them, gives them faith and justifies them accordingly and in that, the requirement to believe is accomplished and fulfilled.
Also, you state that since it is not clearly drawn out in scripture, you are having a hard time assimilating the doctrine in regard to the elect infant. However, in the same light, there has been ample support presented in this thread to rightfully prove that justification does not precede faith and yet you still are undecided. It seems as if it really does not matter if scripture is presented or not presented at this point.
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Also, you state that since it is not clearly drawn out in scripture, you are having a hard time assimilating the doctrine in regard to the elect infant. However, in the same light, there has been ample support presented in this thread to rightfully prove that justification does not precede faith and yet you still are undecided. It seems as if it really does not matter if scripture is presented or not presented at this point.
[Edited on 3-13-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Hello Scott:
It absolutely does matter. I am not fully denying the traditional understading of JBF. I am looking fully at its understanding. Please do not get frustrated with me because I do not take this lightly.
The scriptures presented by all are extremely helpful to me. WHat causes me to rethink the traditional understanding is when Paul states we are also justified by grace, his blood, and his death
I also know that infant salvation is a tremendous revelation of Gods grace.
I just do not think Scripture warrants a dogmatic understanding of that issue.
I also am concerned because Christ died for us while we were still His enemies, and would His enemies have faith in Him? Or have His faith? Am I worng to conclude that Him dying for us while we were emnity against Him, His enemies, that this is pure grace and justification?
In His Grace
Joseph
[Edited on 3-14-2005 by The Lamb]
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Joseph,
Perhaps it would help you to understand Christ's role as surety. Heb. 7:21-23.
He takes our place before the Father, and garantees our justification to come. But we are not actually justified until we actually stand before God in faith, and are counted as righteous in His sight for the righteousness of Christ imputed. It is one thing to have an inheritance set aside for you. Quite another to actually posess it in your hands. Perhaps that is how you should consider justification. Or another illustration, the judge may know he will declare someone innocent because some one came to take the mans place, maybe even weeks in advance, but until the court assembles and the acccused stands before him personally, he doesn't issue the ruling. Some feeble illustrations, but I think you may get the point. You must exist to be justified. And it is always the point of transition from death to life, from wrath to grace. This is the role of the Spirit, to work this transition and bring us personally before the bar of God to have our sentence declared.
As for infants having faith, God may work faith in the womb if he wishes. David trusted upon the Lord at his mothers breast. John the Baptist leaped in the presence of Christ. Only a mustard seed is required.
Perhaps it would help you to understand Christ's role as surety. Heb. 7:21-23.
He takes our place before the Father, and garantees our justification to come. But we are not actually justified until we actually stand before God in faith, and are counted as righteous in His sight for the righteousness of Christ imputed. It is one thing to have an inheritance set aside for you. Quite another to actually posess it in your hands. Perhaps that is how you should consider justification. Or another illustration, the judge may know he will declare someone innocent because some one came to take the mans place, maybe even weeks in advance, but until the court assembles and the acccused stands before him personally, he doesn't issue the ruling. Some feeble illustrations, but I think you may get the point. You must exist to be justified. And it is always the point of transition from death to life, from wrath to grace. This is the role of the Spirit, to work this transition and bring us personally before the bar of God to have our sentence declared.
As for infants having faith, God may work faith in the womb if he wishes. David trusted upon the Lord at his mothers breast. John the Baptist leaped in the presence of Christ. Only a mustard seed is required.
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