Wine or Juice? A possible solution.

[Jie-Huli]

Originally posted by biblelighthouse

Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I also, though generally abstentionist, am open to use of wine at the Lord's table (though perhaps watered down a bit

According to Scripture, it is a *negative* thing to water down wine (Isaiah 1:22).


Would God use watered-down-wine as a *negative* sign in Scripture, and then turn right around and use the same thing to symbolize the perfect blood of His Son?



(I'm not picking on you too badly . . . my current church uses grape juice, although I wish they would use wine.)

Sorry I could not respond earlier . . .

I do not wish to belabour the point, but I do not believe the statement "According to Scripture, it is a *negative* thing to water down wine (Isaiah 1:22)" can be maintained.

It is certainly used symbolically in a negative way in Isaiah 1:22, that I do not deny . . . symbolising, I think, something keeping the "colour" of something while in fact being absent of the substance of it, as was the religion of a majority of the Jews in Isaiah's day. This verse seems to be speaking of an excessively watered down version.

But the mixture of wine is not always a negative thing in Scripture. Compare:

Proverbs 9:1-2: "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars; She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table . . ."


Song of Songs 5:1: "I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk . . ."

Isaiah 55:1: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come, buy wine and milk without money and without price . . ."

As far as I understand the matter, common wine in Biblical times was almost always diluted with water or milk.

Just as easily as accepting your characterisation of "wine-mixing" as negative because it was used as a negative metaphor in Isaiah, we could point to Revelation 14:10 and conclude that undiluted wine has a negative connotation in the Bible: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation." I do not draw any such conclusion from this verse, I just point out that the logic would apparently be the same as the logic of drawing a negative conclusion about mixed-wine from Isaiah 1:22.

Now, I do not fault anyone for using unmixed wine in communion; quite the contrary, I understand the reasons to be of a sincere desire to observe the sacrament in purity, and I will state nothing against the practise whatsoever. And I can see why you believe the unmixed wine presents the sacrament's picture most clearly.

However, I certainly also do not believe that a slightly "mixed" wine would be any violation of the RPW . . . since, as far as I understand, it is very well established that the "wine" spoken of in the New Testament was itself almost certainly mixed to some extent.

Blessings,

Jie-Huli

[Edited on 1-7-2006 by Jie-Huli]

 

[Mike]

Originally posted by Jie-Huli
I do not wish to belabour the point, but I do not believe the statement "According to Scripture, it is a *negative* thing to water down wine (Isaiah 1:22)" can be maintained.

It is certainly used symbolically in a negative way in Isaiah 1:22, that I do not deny . . . symbolising, I think, something keeping the "colour" of something while in fact being absent of the substance of it, as was the religion of a majority of the Jews in Isaiah's day. This verse seems to be speaking of an excessively watered down version.

All the passage establishes is the dilution of wine by water. I don't see why we should understand that as extreme dilution as opposed to less dilution the rest of the time.

Further, this idea fails in that "colour" would not be maintained in an extreme dilution.

But the mixture of wine is not always a negative thing in Scripture. Compare:

Proverbs 9:1-2: "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars; She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table . . ."

Indeed this passage speaks about mixture of wine positively. However, mixture with what? Dilution?

I am not so sure.

I am not usually huge on commentaries, but this is the kind of case I think they are very useful. The JFB says that the mingling is "to enhance the flavor." Matthew Henry concurs, saying "The wine is mingled with something richer than itself, to give it a more than ordinary spirit and flavour."

Gill proposes it might be either, saying that "Now the 'mingling' of this wine is in allusion to the mixture of wine, either with something richer, as spice, So 8:2; or rather with water."

I don't think we can really conclude that the mingling/mixing here is a matter of dilution.

Song of Songs 5:1: "I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk . . ."

Indeed, this is a case of wine being drank with milk. However, I don't see this being particularly comparable to dilution with water, nor do I see how this might lead us to believe it is standard operating procedure. Milk and wine mixed together would probably not be called wine, as it would be very different than straight wine or even wine diluted with water, in both taste and appearance.

Certainly, though, this is a mixed drink enjoyed in Biblical times.

Isaiah 55:1: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come, buy wine and milk without money and without price . . ."

I don't see why we should understand this as buying a wine-milk mixture rather than buying wine and milk. If I told you I was going to buy juice and Pepsi at the store, you wouldn't assume I was buying a mixture of the two.

Further, it particularly doesn't make sense to say that they are sold together, as the milk-wine mixture would take away one of wine's big advantages: lasting a long time.

As far as I understand the matter, common wine in Biblical times was almost always diluted with water or milk.

That's nice. It is certainly something that happened, but I don't think you've proven frequency.

Just as easily as accepting your characterisation of "wine-mixing" as negative because it was used as a negative metaphor in Isaiah, we could point to Revelation 14:10 and conclude that undiluted wine has a negative connotation in the Bible: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation." I do not draw any such conclusion from this verse, I just point out that the logic would apparently be the same as the logic of drawing a negative conclusion about mixed-wine from Isaiah 1:22.

Rev 14:10 tells us about God's judgment conveyed most strongly in a pure wine. I don't see why we think that this means that the wine is representing something we should regard as negative. The strength of God's judgment is something we should regard as good in its glorifying Him.

Further, the cup of the Lord's table being judgment to those not partaking rightly, it seems like it would make some sense for it to be unmixed.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I have added Keith Mathison's paper on Protestant Transubstantiation to the links manager (worship).

 

[KMK]

 

[KMK]

I don't think that alcohol is non-important, although I don't think juice is the equivalent of steak for the Supper (i.e. the completely wrong element). Besides the exegetical weight - which lands on actual "wine" rather than just "fruit of the vine" (Esp. considering context), there is a subjective matter. I believe that wine - with its taste of bitterness as well as enjoyment, better represents the atonement.

Ps 104:15 "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man..."

Rom 5:11 "And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Which is had through Christ's shed blood)

 

[KMK]

There is another factor to be considered:

It is a fact that Mr. Welch invented his "grape juice" with the express purpose of assisting churches in having communion without the sinof touching a drop of alcohol.

It is also typical of juice advocates to have prohibitionist views, and that is why they do not want to use wine.

Mr. Welch was not some great theologian who discovered some ancient secrets in the scriptures that proved that the church had been wrong for 1800 years in its use of wine. Mr. Welch was a prohibitionist. (And a Methodist) (Not that there's anything wrong with that)