Young Men Converting to Eastern Orthodoxy

LadyCalvinist

Puritan Board Junior
Recently, I heard about young men going Catholic or EO. Part of the reason seems to be that these traditional churches are safe spaces for their masculinity, and indeed honor their masculinity, whereas much of the culture is hostile to it (think "toxic masculinity"). I think it is sad. I wish someone would have pointed them to a WELS church or a conservative episcopal denomination. Praying for them.


 
I was talking to a young man in the Greek Orthodox Church last year and he was very worried by the woke movements in the church. His parents in Greece had stopped going to church. And with the current bishop of Rome at the helm I don't think they are going to find a good role model for their masculinity.

The problem with many young men today is that they flee from responsibility. I can't imagine masculinity without responsibility. "Quit you like men" means holding to the truth irrespective of consequences. Hiding behind an institution is not manly.
 
Was
Recently, I heard about young men going Catholic or EO. Part of the reason seems to be that these traditional churches are safe spaces for their masculinity, and indeed honor their masculinity, whereas much of the culture is hostile to it (think "toxic masculinity"). I think it is sad. I wish someone would have pointed them to a WELS church or a conservative episcopal denomination. Praying for them.


Just talking to someone who had those exact talking points. It's sad that that's what they perceive.
 
Recently, I heard about young men going Catholic or EO. Part of the reason seems to be that these traditional churches are safe spaces for their masculinity, and indeed honor their masculinity, whereas much of the culture is hostile to it (think "toxic masculinity"). I think it is sad. I wish someone would have pointed them to a WELS church or a conservative episcopal denomination. Praying for them.


Safe places for their insecurity.
 
I'm seeing something else. On Substack – where I also write – I see men, some of them young, some not so young, not finding much of substance in the "evangelical" churches, seeking elsewhere. I think of Rod Dreher, Paul Kingsnorth, Martin Shaw, and others, seeking – and finding, after a fashion – an ancientness, longevity, and certitude they have not found in the evangelical world. It was Rod Dreher (via some writer he was influenced by) who espoused a disdain for the Reformation, and for Calvinism, falsely blaming much of modern Christian and societal decay on them. And this poison has spread.

Rod wanders off into sensory phenomena (paranormal, omens, dreams, anecdotal stuff, supposed "miracles", UFOs) and builds much of his view of life and "faith" on such. He's a good writer, and some of his earlier work, Live Not By Lies, The Benedict Option, had much merit, despite great reliance on Eastern Orthodoxy. He's now promoting "re-enchantment" via EO and its, and his, mysticisms.

Paul Kingsnorth, a younger man, once an atheistic activist, converted to EO, and began a "journey" visiting ancient "holy wells" across the U.K. (I think he lives in Ireland now, on a farm, as much off-the-grid as he can). It's finding the "holy" in the mundane, in the tracks of supposed saints. Paul is a good writer.

I think N.S. Lyons (a pseudonym) is turning to EO (or some Christian faith), in some measure initially influenced by C.S. Lewis, and Tolkien, and now by other EO men. He's a very astute and gifted soul in gov't employ – perhaps Intelligence.

An EO woman, some years ago, said to me, the places you people worship (Protestants, and me, Reformed) are like union hall meeting places, instead of glorious cathedrals. The beauty, the smells, the artwork, the singing, the icons, liturgies, etc.

As for me, in my simpler spiritual life, the beauty is to be found in the glory and power of Christ's presence, the wonders and the visions given us in His written word – in other words, though our gathering places may be (though not always) plain and ordinary, the means of grace we love, the preaching, the Lord's Table, the singing, reading of Scripture, prayer, fellowship in the Spirit and the Word of our God, these are where we find God's glory, and our joy.

The move to EO is, from what I have seen (I live in Cyprus, which some call the heart of EO), an adherence to things both sensory and "mystical". Not the "robust mysticism" of David in the Psalms, or of Paul in his prayers and writings – where it is the Holy Spirit bringing to us those things which are above,

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col 3:1, 2, 3, 4 KJV)​

Some of these EO folks may have genuine faith, but it is – it seems to me – feeble and too worldly. And not Scriptural.

A.A. Hodge, in his commentary on the Westminster Confession of Faith; WCF CHAPTER 1 Of the Holy Scripture, Section II; “… Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written [the 66 books of the Bible] . . . are given by inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life.”

At the end of this chapter of the WCF, in Section X, Hodge says, “. . . the Scriptures are the only authoritative voice in the Church”. [thanks to Ben, @SolaScriptura, for highlighting this!}

EO has many other voices they deem authoritative, to their great lack.
 
I read this article just yesterday: "Young, single men are leaving traditional churches. They found a more ‘masculine’ alternative" and the week prior had a long chat with an older Greek Orthodox work colleague of mine who said their churches have seen a huge uptick in both Protestant and Catholic converts. He is a cradle Greek Orthodox and he finds the trend rather befuddling considering the current leadership in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has essentially gone the route of liberal Protestantism. He praised the Russian Orthodox and to a lesser extent the Antiochians for keeping what he called "timeless Christianity", but did not have much good to say about the state of the Greek Orthodox today.

If this trend ends up being today's version of Young, Restless, and Reformed it'll eventually lose steam and die off. Plenty of young single men join the Marines for a more "masculine" alternative and eventually realize they aren't slaying dragons like in the commercials.
 
I've had two friends move to Eastern Orthodoxy, and they gave some insight to their desire to move to EO, though not exhaustively so.

The first was in broadly evangelical circles and disappointed with their fluffiness and unwillingness to stand up against the political left's talking points. He then saw Roman Catholic and Roman Catholic adjacent figures (Calvin Robinson) opposing LGBTQ, abortion, and boldly speaking up on issues he valued. He then began investigating, and became emphatuated with their use of early church fathers. He eventually recognized issues with Pope Francis the EO became the way to go for him. I think for him, his whole experience was an overcorrection from one side of the ditch to the other. From unstructured to structured, novel to historic, and in his experience, from "woke" to "based". Unfortunately, his impression of Calvinistic figures was tainted by his Arminian evangelical background, so there was no investigation or entertaining of the Reformed position. When he did examine them, it was always in the light of EO apologists.

I think he would likely echo the desire for masculinity - he has a very "macho" background. His move was political/ethical, but never sotiriological/theological.

The other friend just stepped down from his post in his previous denomination - we attended seminary together, are still good friends. It's harder to go into detail on him as I would feel a violation of things he expressed to me in private, but I can say that he sees a sharp divide between Patristics and Protestantism.

In both cases, the commonality was the belief that protestants cannot/do not utilize the early church fathers in a responsible way.

For what its worth, this is one place Puritanboard has been an incredible encouragement to me. My current life situation hasn't allowed for a ton of re-reading/study (I read them during seminary, which is ironic given the above) on the patristics - especially with a mind to respond to EO. Reading through posts and comments on the board has been helpful. There would be many to mention, but posts from @RamistThomist, @MW, and @Semper Fidelis come to mind as being especially helpful.
 
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I have always had a fascination with Eastern Orthodoxy, mostly for its beauty and unwillingness to conform to the world.

The attraction is understandable, plus the EO Instagram and TikTok accounts target young men with hyper masculine content.

Theologically EO is very heavy on works based salvation. The Patristic Fathers aside, who I do believe the Reformers were well educated on and often quoted from, one only has to open up a book like “The Sayings of the Desert Fathers” to realize just how much works and spiritual purity are seen as essential to salvation.
 
There is also a large “punk” branding effort within the young EO masculine/anti-woke movement.
It used to be called “Death to the World” but I believe it has now been rebranded as “Behold the Chalice”. Very edgy with dark, almost violent esthetics. It works to sell t-shirts while making converts.
 
Some of this is an internet phenonmenon. It is conversion by Google and social media search engines and algorithms. Conversions to RC, EO and Islam for that matter often involve a "worst of X compared to the best of Y" fallacy. These selection biases are easy to construct.
 
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When you've known as many impious EO priests and when every (albeit only a handful) man who you know has converted for other-than-heavenly-minded purposes, you don't take seriously any claims trying to make their conversion stories seem profound.

EO places of worship are beautiful. But the pagan Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Babylonian, Persian (etc., etc., ad nauseam) all knew how to make stunningly beautiful places of worship.( Indeed, it has been pointed out that for all the seeming opulence of the Temple... when compared to other places of worship that existed at the time, the Temple was rather... plain.) Even the modern Taj Mahal is exquisite. Some huge mosques are likewise stunning. There's nothing distinctly Christian about a beautiful worship space. So don't let them act like there is.

Look at the civilizations that have been fostered by the EO faith or even the RC religion: hardly beacons of freedom, justice, and prosperity. And NONE of them are places characterized by pious social conservatism.

I'll take the civilizations erected on a Protestant worldview any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 
I have visited many EO Churches in Europe. Theological issues aside, I find them to be stunningly beautiful.

I guess this shows decorative beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My personal impression of EO church interiors is that they're overly gaudy, and in some cases garish.
 
When you've known as many impious EO priests and when every (albeit only a handful) man who you know has converted for other-than-heavenly-minded purposes, you don't take seriously any claims trying to make their conversion stories seem profound.

EO places of worship are beautiful. But the pagan Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Babylonian, Persian (etc., etc., ad nauseam) all knew how to make stunningly beautiful places of worship.( Indeed, it has been pointed out that for all the seeming opulence of the Temple... when compared to other places of worship that existed at the time, the Temple was rather... plain.) Even the modern Taj Mahal is exquisite. Some huge mosques are likewise stunning. There's nothing distinctly Christian about a beautiful worship space. So don't let them act like there is.

Look at the civilizations that have been fostered by the EO faith or even the RC religion: hardly beacons of freedom, justice, and prosperity. And NONE of them are places characterized by pious social conservatism.

I'll take the civilizations erected on a Protestant worldview any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Yes, but look at our nation which has been fostered by Protestantism. We are the beacon of moral decay and degeneracy. Sure, you may have a nice house or can own a gun; but you also have trannies reading your kids library books, gays getting married, drugs being legalized, divorce and adultery glorified, and almost every major mainline denomination within its borders having given way to theological liberalism within the last 100 years. Are not Germany and England in similar situations?
 
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Some of this is an internet phenonmenon. It is conversion by Google and social media search engines and algorithms. Conversions to RC, EO and Islam for that matter often involve a "worst of X compared to the best of Y" fallacy. These selection biases are easy to construct.
This is my guess too. There's a boatload of cool "based" videos from an EO angle attacking liberalism that I came across a couple of years ago on YouTube. This move makes a lot of sense when boys and young men grow up in an overtly feminised immoral society. What is more concerning is those who turn from sound biblical churches to EO, but I don't know how common that is.
 
When you've known as many impious EO priests and when every (albeit only a handful) man who you know has converted for other-than-heavenly-minded purposes, you don't take seriously any claims trying to make their conversion stories seem profound.
This is what is deeply disturbing with many of the conversions to EO and RC.. what does God hate more than the hypocrisy of the Pharisee, all ladened with finery and an outwardly moral life, but inside is full of pride and dead men's bones? In his book 'Evangelical Pharisees', Michael Reeves' warns us of this from the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector. I can't help but think of our Lord's words in Matthew 23.
 
Yes, but look at our nation which has been fostered by Protestantism. We are the beacon of moral decay and degeneracy. Sure, you may have a nice house or can own a gun; but you also have trannies reading your kids library books, gays getting married, drugs being legalized, divorce and adultery glorified, and almost every major mainline denomination within its borders having given way to theological liberalism within the last 100 years. Are not Germany and England in similar situations?
I'm beginning to think you feel constitutionally obligated to disagree with me. :lol:

My point is: they look around and see the current degeneracy and want to blame Protestantism. But the places under sway of EO and RC are in the same boat or worse... and in fact never have enjoyed the prosperity, freedom, and justice Protestant lands have enjoyed - end continue to enjoy despite the degeneracy we now see around us. So again, I’ll take a civilization erected on a Protestant worldview any day of the week and twice on Sundays over one erected on an EO or RC worldview.
 
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I'm beginning to think you feel constitutionally obligated to disagree with me. :lol:

My point is: they look around and see the current degeneracy and want to blame Protestantism. But the places under sway of EO and RC are in the same boat or worse... and in fact never have enjoyed the prosperity, freedom, and justice Protestant lands have enjoyed - end continue to enjoy despite the degeneracy we now see around us. So again, I’ll take a civilization erected on a Protestant worldview any day of the week and twice on Sundays over one erected on an EO or RC worldview.
No, its not that. I just sometimes think that freedom and prosperity (or at least a wrong embracement of it) have been why Protestantism is of very little influence in American culture anymore. And I kind of, though I can be completely wrong here, see this currently being promoted in Protestant circles under the guise of "an eschatology of optimism." Or, basically the idea that Christianity (at least American) is kind of a moral compass to live a financially prosperous life, rather than an all-consuming reality that beckons us to live not of this world (which doesn't necessarily mean poverty.) And in so doing, for most Christians, there is really little fervency to see the world converted, as opposed to "holding on to Christ" as a way of getting a desired life of our own making. Basically, Christ calls us to lose our lives for his sake, but a lot of us want to use Christ to get the lives we've always wanted. Maybe its the lack of sacrificial living that may be present in systems like RC and EO? I dunno. I know most certainly all Protestants do not fall into this window, but it does make one wonder if over half the nation claims to be Christian, (and of those a majority Protestant) how this country is in the position that it is? And what especially makes this odd, is when I read the Reformers and Puritans, they in no way resemble such a Protestantism, but instead, one that calls us to love, and live for God with every facet of our being.
 
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Although I agree with Ben here, I think Dave has raised a point that's worth noting because some of these trends among young men also correlate with trends of sympathy toward Russia and other types of radical skepticism and right-wing deconstructionism.

Many young men would not agree with Ben's sentiment. They are so over the degeneracy of our current day and age, and so disconnected from past traditions of critical thinking and analysis, that they are beginning to veer towards a form of anti-Americanism not much different from what you see on the left, but just pasted it over with a flavorless Christian veneer. Over the holidays, I had a remark about North Korea greeted with a sneer and a reply of "Supposedly. So what's worse, North Korea or state mandated homosexuality?" Maybe - one can only hope - this acquaintance was being deliberately hyperbolic for dramatic effect.

When you have a view of the world that allows you to look at Putin as an enlightened ruler and Russia as a "better place" then the corrupt democracies of places like America and Ukraine, you won't have much of a framework for seeing what Ben is pointing out... And consequently that restraint, which might otherwise keep susceptible minds from viewing towards heresies like Eastern Orthodoxy (coincidentally the national religion of that beacon of freedom from Ukrainian war-mongering and oppression), might be weakened or absent for many.
 
Although I agree with Ben here, I think Dave has raised a point that's worth noting because some of these trends among young men also correlate with trends of sympathy toward Russia and other types of radical skepticism and right-wing deconstructionism.

Many young men would not agree with Ben's sentiment. They are so over the degeneracy of our current day and age, and so disconnected from past traditions of critical thinking and analysis, that they are beginning to veer towards a form of anti-Americanism not much different from what you see on the left, but just pasted it over with a flavorless Christian veneer. Over the holidays, I had a remark about North Korea greeted with a sneer and a reply of "Supposedly. So what's worse, North Korea or state mandated homosexuality?" Maybe - one can only hope - this acquaintance was being deliberately hyperbolic for dramatic effect.

When you have a view of the world that allows you to look at Putin as an enlightened ruler and Russia as a "better place" then the corrupt democracies of places like America and Ukraine, you won't have much of a framework for seeing what Ben is pointing out... And consequently that restraint, which might otherwise keep susceptible minds from viewing towards heresies like Eastern Orthodoxy (coincidentally the national religion of that beacon of freedom from Ukrainian war-mongering and oppression), might be weakened or absent for many.
Yeah, I agree that I have encountered that too. I suggest it reflects an immature lack of perspective.
 
But have yall lived in North Korea or Russia. Or is this affinity for "America as the Best" spring from our inherit patriotism rather than lived experiences in other nations outside the West?
 
Have you?
No. That is why I said my patriotism is inherited. As the US is the only country in which I have a lived experience. Its also the reason I don't say other countries are better or worse. Because how would I know unless it was a regurgitation of someone else's opinion?
 
No. That is why I said my patriotism is inherited. As the US is the only country in which I have a lived experience. Its also the reason I don't say other countries are better or worse. Because how would I know unless it was a regurgitation of someone else's opinion?
I have never lived in or visited either country. Certainly I have no desire even to visit North Korea, because there's serious question in my mind whether I would never be able to leave again! I'm not particularly keen on visiting Russia, Iran, or China for similar reasons, though I don't think any of them are as extreme as North Korea in the repression of their citizenry. It's absurd to me to ignore the reality that the US is not only much freer than those countries but also much freer than much of the rest of the West. I'm not ignoring the reality of things here, and I know there is immense social pressure and sometimes actual persecution directed at those who faithfully adhere to Christian worldview. It's just not on the same level as much of the rest of the world.

At any rate, if you don't have that perspective for viewing America in relation to the rest of the world, you won't be able to appreciate the way in which a distinctly Protestant worldview contributed to that.
 
I have never lived in or visited either country. Certainly I have no desire even to visit North Korea, because there's serious question in my mind whether I would never be able to leave again! I'm not particularly keen on visiting Russia, Iran, or China for similar reasons, though I don't think any of them are as extreme as North Korea in the repression of their citizenry. It's absurd to me to ignore the reality that the US is not only much freer than those countries but also much freer than much of the rest of the West. I'm not ignoring the reality of things here, and I know there is immense social pressure and sometimes actual persecution directed at those who faithfully adhere to Christian worldview. It's just not on the same level as much of the rest of the world.

At any rate, if you don't have that perspective for viewing America in relation to the rest of the world, you won't be able to appreciate the way in which a distinctly Protestant worldview contributed to that.
Yeah, its probably something I need to touch up on. Haven't done much of it since Social Studies and American History in High School. I am just leery basing my entire outlook of other countries solely on the opinions of detractors. Kind of like the same attitude we have when thinking of the opinions of Christian Deconstructionists.
 
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