Young Men Converting to Eastern Orthodoxy

No. That is why I said my patriotism is inherited. As the US is the only country in which I have a lived experience. Its also the reason I don't say other countries are better or worse. Because how would I know unless it was a regurgitation of someone else's opinion?

Personal experience is not the only kind of evidence one can appeal to. Don't you rely on testimonial evidence, statistical evidence, etc. all the time? Don't you read reviews before visiting a restaurant or vacation? Don't you look at crime demographics, surrounding property values, etc. when choosing to move?

I'm not expert on this subject, but my intuition is more Russians and North Koreans come here than Americans go there (% of population). I'll be surprised if I'm wrong. And I would infer that tells us something about how other people generally think which country is "better" (with exceptions, obviously)
 
Or if you're so fueled by contempt and anger that you lose all objectivity that you can't see how imprisoning and torturing entire families for one person in that family uttering a prayer to God, and you are forced at the point of a gun to essentially worship the ruling family, or an entire nation lives in poverty without so much as regular electricity or running water - except for the families of Party elites - and a huge percentage have parasites in their bodies... if one cannot see how that is worse than a society in which you can't fire homosexuals... yeah, there's no rationalizing with someone whose moral perspective is that skewed.
 
You don't need a history class for this. You just need the ability to look around you and do an honest, objective evaluation of what freedoms you do and don't have in this country.
Yeah, its probably something I need to touch up on. Haven't done much of it since Social Studies and American History in High School. I am just leery basing my entire outlook of other countries solely on the opinions of detractors. Kind of like the same attitude we have when thinking of the opinion of Christian Deconstructionists.
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Or if you're so fueled by contempt and anger that you lose all objectivity that you can't see how imprisoning and torturing entire families for one person in that family uttering a prayer to God, or an entire nation lives in poverty - except for the families of Party elites, is worse than a society in which you can't fire homosexuals... yeah, there's no rationalizing with someone whose moral compass is that skewed.
The thing is that EVERYBODY is free here, followers of Satan as well as followers of Christ. Putin might not follow the West's radical pro-gay agenda, but at the same time, if you're Christian but not Eastern Orthodox and don't toe the state line, you could be in for some rough handling. And North Korea might not be pro-gay, but the entire country is literally starving, to the extent that the average height of a North Korean is some inches shorter than their South Korean counterparts.

I know which one I'd choose for me and my family.
 
You don't need a history class for this. You just need the ability to look around you and do an honest, objective evaluation of what freedoms you do and don't have in this country.

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The thing is that EVERYBODY is free here, followers of Satan as well as followers of Christ. Putin might not follow the West's radical pro-gay agenda, but at the same time, if you're Christian but not Eastern Orthodox and don't toe the state line, you could be in for some rough handling. And North Korea might not be pro-gay, but the entire country is literally starving, to the extent that the average height of a North Korean is some inches shorter than their South Korean counterparts.

I know which one I'd choose for me and my family.
Me too.
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The thing is that EVERYBODY is free here, followers of Satan as well as followers of Christ.
Exactly. In the Army it was (is?) ensconced that a counselor is free to counsel according to their convictions... so sure, that means that if a couple goes to some counselor who thinks that marriage is a repressive social construct they'll get that perspective. And I heard more than once that a couple would go to a counselor and "within 5 minutes" were being told that they should divorce. That's nuts.

BUT the same freedom that protected those wacko counselors protected me. So in literally every counseling session I ever had as a chaplain I straight up presented the Gospel - I evangelized EVERYONE who came to me, and I always addressed their issues through a biblical perspective. I wasn't able to save every marriage, but I sure did help some couples save theirs!

It's kind of like life in general: if you go through life more focused on what you don't have... you'll be angry and bitter. But if you focus more on what you do have, and seek to be wise to best play the hand you're dealt, you'll be a lot happier (and usually more successful).

I love this country, man, even with her ugly warts.
And even more broadly speaking - the world owes a debt of gratitude to the English speaking nations of the world.
 
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I wonder how we should be reaching out to these young men who are looking for a place to stand and don't think they can find it in Protestantism?
 
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For those who are attracted to EO due to its connection with church history, we can demonstrate that it is false to say that protestants only value church history after 1517. That might be true in broadly evangelical circles, but the reformed should be able to differentiate themselves from this caricature.

For those who are theologically inclined to see a sharp divide between Patristics and Protestantism, it is possible to interact with the Patristic writings, show where we stand on their shoulders, and show that disagreeing with voices from the past is not tantamount to being incompatible. The difficulty here is the conversation between Sola Scriptura and tradition. Again, there are misconceptions regarding how the Reformed view tradition but it seems to be an epistemological conversation.

For those who desire a masculine church, I think we eat crow, repent, and then take care not to overcorrect. As much as we might disagree, there is probably a good reason that EO, Moscow, Ogsden, or whoever else is popping up appear like more masculine options. There is much room for improvement concerning how we reach and engage with young men.

A mentor suggested that the way to cultivate biblical manhood is to love your wife, love your children, be charitable, be patient, have firm convictions, and open your home to young men. The "Alpha Male" is attractive until you see how vapid it is - a patient father who leads his family with love and is respected and loved by his wife and children carries more weight than we realize. Also, we can answer a fool according to his folly - there is an enormous level of immaturity that is called masculinity today, and gentle questions can reveal a lot.

I would love to hear other perspectives.
 
This connection is interesting to me because it doesn't strike me as entirely new, even if social media has amplified it in recent years. When I was attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy in my early 20s (2005-2008), I read a lot of Frederica Mathews-Greene's essays and recall her making a similar claim -- that men seem to be more strongly drawn to EO at first because it's a more demanding path of piety than one finds in much of the contemporary church, and that women are slower to be drawn in. At the time, in a worldly liberal Protestant environment, I actually identified with that supposedly masculine attraction for a Christian life that demanded something. I didn't yet have a very mature sense of a robust biblical piety and was susceptible to that thinking. I was drawn to things that "felt" "religious." It's an impulse I can understand.

But, at any rate, even if the social and political context is different now, some of this strikes me as a younger generation falling into similar pitfalls that a subset of my own did. My husband considered EO before I knew him, too. We've since talked a lot about how that longing for mystery is really another expression of a low church experientialism. Much of my attraction to high church mysticism lost its luster when I recognized that, and as I grew in my love for worship according to Scripture.
 
A mentor suggested that the way to cultivate biblical manhood is to love your wife, love your children, be charitable, be patient, have firm convictions, and open your home to young men. The "Alpha Male" is attractive until you see how vapid it is - a patient father who leads his family with love and is respected and loved by his wife and children carries more weight than we realize. Also, we can answer a fool according to his folly - there is an enormous level of immaturity that is called masculinity today, and gentle questions can reveal a lot.
I can empathize with this a lot. During my senior year of high school and freshman year of college (I wasn’t converted until the end of my freshman year of college in May 2022, grew up Roman Catholic), I was huge into all of that “alpha male” / “manosphere”-type content, mostly as a way to figure out how to talk to women so I could find a relationship (I say this to my shame). I thought that that was what defined masculinity — i.e. being adept with women, earning a lot of money, being successful and disciplined, etc.

While I was always a nominal Roman Catholic when I was one, being exposed to the “trad-Cath” content on Instagram/Tiktok/YouTube made me more inclined to want to pursue my Roman Catholic faith, simply because I saw it as a more honorable and dignified way of living this “masculine” way of life that I thought was right. However, seeing as there is no grace involved in that sort of “Christianity,” it really just fostered more hypocrisy in me, as I now lived the same life being enslaved to all sorts of ungodly lusts as before, just with the veneer and facade of religious virtue to try to mask it. Thankfully, though, the Lord eventually used this to expose me to the true gospel and I became a willing and joyful captive to Christ and His precious grace, and after a few months I converted out of Roman Catholicism to becoming a Protestant (I also have social media, ironically, to thank for that, as I was exposed to the true Roman Catholic views of works-righteousness, praying to saints and Mary, the merits of the saints, etc. through it, whereas before I neither knew nor particularly cared what the RCC actually believed as a nominal RC).

So I very much understand the draw and appeal these sorts of things can have to young men. The appearance of antiquity, beauty, and conservative values can be quite alluring and attractive to young men who are often affected by a deep sense of a lack of purpose in oneself and thus are searching for deeper meaning in their life and something greater than themselves to live for. The effeminacy of modern evangelicalism likely adds to this. But that is where the riches of the historic Reformed tradition can be so beautiful when God lets the light of the gospel shine into such a young man’s heart.
 
I wonder how we should be reaching out to these young men who be looking for a place to stand and don't think they can find it in Protestantism?

Sometimes only God can shake a man out of a cage stage phase of life or a fascination with falsehood.

And I can't invest time in online evangelism, which typically requires a platform with bells and whistles of the sort that are - analogous to EO architecture and so forth - irrelevant to the crux of the matter: biblical truth. If I knew someone considering EO, it'd be different. But I don't.
 
I wonder how we should be reaching out to these young men who be looking for a place to stand and don't think they can find it in Protestantism?
In recent years, he’s seen the internet as a major driver: “Internet Orthodoxy is a recognized phenomenon … We get people who come in all the time who are like, ‘I was on the internet arguing with people, and I discovered Orthodoxy and I found your church.’”
 
Recently, I heard about young men going Catholic or EO. Part of the reason seems to be that these traditional churches are safe spaces for their masculinity, and indeed honor their masculinity,
Going back to the top of the thread, any young man that believes that the RC church is a model of masculine leadership - there's something wrong with that boy. Not sure if someone like that could remove liquid from his boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
 
Most EO's I see are generally larping as far as I can tell and screaming you need to debate Jay Dyer. I don't see the draw.
 
Going back to the top of the thread, any young man that believes that the RC church is a model of masculine leadership - there's something wrong with that boy. Not sure if someone like that could remove liquid from his boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
I know, right? I once knew an RC priest who was disgusted by the fact that (as he said) he'd get more in trouble for sleeping with a woman than with a man.
 
An observation I've made...
Some EO guys with YouTube channels who are becoming popular for their debate skills, seem to primarily interact with the average protestant lay person. Generally these lay people have little biblical understanding, someone you might find at a typical seeker friendly type church. They see something wrong with EO and call the EO youtube guy, and just get walked all over because they have zero defense against the EO guy.

I don't think there's a problem with the discussions, but the EO guys I've checked out rarely interact with knowledgeable lay people, or pastors, reformed or otherwise. Two examples are Andrew Wilson and Sam Shamoun. They both have call in podcasts or go scouring TikTok or whatever for debates. I think they just found an easy market full of people who can't defend against the EO talking points.

At least that's what I've seen.
 
I've written on this subject before. I have friends in the Roman Catholic clergy who serve parishes full of young men with families who love in-depth catechesis, want worship that is serious and reverent rather than "happy clappy" exuberance, and find in their Catholic parishes a sense of awe and respect for God's authority that they didn't find in their former evangelical churches. My experience with Eastern Orthodoxy in recent years has been mostly with Middle Eastern ethnic refugees, but three decades ago I was doing a lot of reading on the subject, and I understood the appeal of Frederica Mathewes-Green and others like her. Some people I knew decades ago who were attracted to Rome but couldn't accept Papal infallibility eventually ended up in the Antiochene Orthodox Church and its mission work in the US, and I probably should make contact with them to see how they are doing given the chaos their Patriarchate potentially faces due to politics in Syria.

For most conservatives I know who are considering the claims of Roman Catholicism and/or Eastern Orthodoxy, they have a sense, and I have a lot of appreciation for it, that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are rooted in the teaching of the ancient church. Way too many evangelicals know nothing of church history and think anything before Finney and Moody was "old fashioned nonsense." We as Protestants can and SHOULD claim St. Augustine as our own. Same for the Apostolic Fathers. We can and SHOULD point out that Trent drove out views that had long been tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church and dated back at least to Augustine, even though they were no longer the majority position by the 1500s. We can and SHOULD point out that at the time of the Reformation, even one of the Patriarchs of Constantinople was sending young Eastern Orthodox priests to study in the Netherlands and at Reformed universities elsewhere in Europe (the Dutch had commercial contacts with Constantinople long before the Reformation, and were able to get a hearing for their views at the highest levels). If it had not been for politics, and the Turkish rulers being lied to and wrongly told that the "Calvinists" were seeking to overthrow his rule, church history might have turned out very differently.

Yes, there are major problems with Roman Catholicism and with Eastern Orthodoxy. But people who are upset with broad evangelicalism often know nothing about the Reformed faith and they look to Rome or look to the East because they claim a rootedness in church history that we as Reformed people did claim at the time of the Reformation, but most evangelicals don't know or have any interest in at all.

Let's just say the Roman Catholics, while officially unified, have far more diversity in doctrine and practice than we see in NAPARC. There are traditionalists, there are charismatics, there are what we would call "broad evangelicals," there are tons of "Christmas and Easter cradle Catholics" who go to Mass only rarely as an external observance for cultural or ethnic reasons, and there are flat-out liberals.

Bishop Barron and his "Word on Fire" ministry is their equivalent to Ligonier. It works, and for many of the same reasons.

We need to spend more time presenting the Reformed faith, not as a type of evangelicalism with Five Points added to a basically evangelical flavor of church life and worship, but as our effort to recover biblical faith and practice of the early church. That's what Calvin thought he was doing, and what we should be doing too.
 
As Diane (@LadyCalvinist ) said above, how can we reach out to these EO (& GO / Greek O) souls? I try — and will continue to — on Substack. Simply communicating as regards the spiritual reality I live in — invoking the presence of the Lord Jesus, and our heavenly Father, by means of His word — as it is His Spirit that quickens souls through our testimony. Fairly often I will speak to them in the comment sections of their EO posts (though this necessitates paying a one-month subscription fee, which I occasionally deem worth it to get a word in. I never charge for viewing and commenting on my site!
 
What exactly do you mean by "beauty" here, if I may ask.
I'm new to the Puritan Board but I would like to give an opinion if I may. The beauty sometimes I think especially when I think about masculinity is the order. The discipline. I spent time in the military service and What attracted me what I enjoyed about it was the strict discipline the Order of Things and the fact that you knew exactly what was expected of you. I Attend an Assemblies of God Church and I thank God for the church that I do attend because they do have what they call the Gathering which is the main part of the church it's where most of the younger people go and it's a lot fluffier then the part of the church that I attend which is called traditions. The Gathering they sing the progressive songs the repeating as they call them the 7-Eleven songs seven words song 11 times but in the Traditions we've got the old hymns the choruses that I grew up with. I think maybe the influx in the Eastern Orthodox is due to a lack of discipline. Don't get me wrong our church preaches solid gospel they're not overly attentive to the mystical or ecclesiastical events but are pretty much right along the lines of the five Solas. That's my take.
 
I'm new to the Puritan Board but I would like to give an opinion if I may. The beauty sometimes I think especially when I think about masculinity is the order. The discipline. I spent time in the military service and What attracted me what I enjoyed about it was the strict discipline the Order of Things and the fact that you knew exactly what was expected of you.

Thank you for your service, SeaDog. As you can tell by my signature line, I live and work outside Fort Leonard Wood, home of the Army Engineer School, Military Police School, and Chemical School. But it's also the home of the largest Marine Corps detachment off a Marine base, a Seabee (Construction Battalion) unit for the Navy, and the home of the truck driving school which is run by the Marines, along with an Air Force detachment (Army Engineers might be good to teach airmen how to build and maintain runways under forward-deployed and combat conditions).

So no, we're not the Marines or the Navy around here, but we might see a few of you guys with unusual uniforms walking around! ;-)

Full disclosure to avoid misunderstandings: No, I'm not a vet. My wife and I both have parents who served, but we did not. Civilians don't always understand why it's REALLY important to avoid even the appearance of evil on these matters, but "stolen valor" is a very big deal and I realized recently I hadn't said for a while on this board that I'm not a veteran. I need to mention that every so often to prevent possible problems that can BADLY blow up if I don't take pro-active steps to prevent them, like this paragraph. Sometimes people put two and two together, come up with 22 instead of 4, and then I get blamed for things I never said. A lot of people logically assume that a reporter living outside a major Army installation with a Korean wife is likely a veteran. Good guess, but wrong. Better safe than sorry on that issue.
 
But have yall lived in North Korea or Russia. Or is this affinity for "America as the Best" spring from our inherit patriotism rather than lived experiences in other nations outside the West?
I've lived in China (7 years), Muslim SE Asia (9 years), and Taiwan (current), so I can speak to those.

Honestly, different countries have different freedoms in different ways. At one time, the US was definitely freer than the others by any metric--especially China, obviously. But nowadays, I would say it's more about what freedoms you want.

Religious freedom wise, US is definitely the winner--although Taiwan would be not far behind.

Most of these countries have freedoms in niche areas that might surprise you that we don't actually enjoy in the US. E.g., the ability to walk into a convenience store and buy contact lenses without a prescription. (Every country I've lived in besides the US has this.) And a few years ago in the US, we were forced to buy health insurance or pay a fine. That was pretty draconian, by some country's metrics.

We do have the freedom to elect our own leaders, it's true. But a) So do Indonesia, Taiwan, and a lot of other countries; and b) that's mostly fake anyway, because I doubt any of us seriously wanted as our first pick the choice of Kamala or Trump.

China is surprisingly "free" in terms of taxation and economic freedoms for business owners, I've been told. Much freer than the US. Used to be at least, when I lived there. Not sure if that's the case anymore.

Taiwan has very loose zoning laws, so you can set up and run a shop out of your home, which results in a really cool boutique culture where people can pursue their hobbies at little cost, which is cool

As for how, "great" a country is, I think not having gay marriage, not having to own an automobile, not having your country fund and push the LGBTQ+ agenda in its embassies around the world, having cheap healthcare you can pay out of pocket, etc. are all pretty great, but to each his/her own.

Again, this is not speaking to countries like North Korea or Russia, or Afghanistan, which have much more serious problems than others I've mentioned. (China is and was... complicated, for reasons I can get into some other time.)
 
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I've lived in China (7 years), Muslim SE Asia (9 years), and Taiwan (current), so I can speak to those.

Honestly, different countries have different freedoms in different ways. At one time, the US was definitely freer than the others by any metric--especially China, obviously. But nowadays, I would say it's more about what freedoms you want.

Religious freedom wise, US is definitely the winner--although Taiwan would be not far behind.

Most of these countries have freedoms in niche areas that might surprise you that we don't actually enjoy in the US. E.g., the ability to walk into a convenience store and buy contact lenses without a prescription. (Every country I've lived in besides the US has this.) And a few years ago in the US, we were forced to buy health insurance or pay a fine. That was pretty draconian, by some country's metrics.

We do have the freedom to elect our own leaders, it's true. But a) So do Indonesia, Taiwan, and a lot of other countries; and b) that's mostly fake anyway, because I doubt any of us seriously wanted as our first pick the choice of Kamala or Trump.

China is surprisingly "free" in terms of taxation and economic freedoms for business owners, I've been told. Much freer than the US. Used to be at least, when I lived there. Not sure if that's the case anymore.

Taiwan has very loose zoning laws, so you can set up and run a shop out of your home, which results in a really cool boutique culture where people can pursue their hobbies at little cost, which is cool

As for how, "great" a country is, I think not having gay marriage, not having to own an automobile, not having your country fund and push the LGBTQ+ agenda in its embassies around the world, having cheap healthcare you can pay out of pocket, etc. are all pretty great, but to each his/her own.

Again, this is not speaking to countries like North Korea or Russia, or Afghanistan, which have much more serious problems than others I've mentioned. (China is and was... complicated, for reasons I can get into some other time.)
Thank you for that. And this was what I was kind of getting at. I watch Youtube, usually when I am eating, and I have often seen videos from Russia or China, or Japan, etc; and they look happy as can be. Sure, there may have been a time in which a nation was oppressive, but our nation was oppressive to some of its citizens at one time too. Now I am not saying I am not grateful for the freedoms we have here, I am, and for those who fight to defend them; but it has always peeked my interest how much of the confidence we so easily tout "we are the best nation" comes from national propaganda or real lived experiences. Much like the people who denounce this nation, would not be taken too seriously by those of this nation if going on a rant about how terrible it is; I wonder why we give so much credence to those from other nations who do the same while many of their countrymen seem perfectly content in their homelands? I don't know. I cant say whether America is the best or not, because the only other country Ive been to is Mexico to party when I was still in the world. So this is the only place I have ever really known.
 
We have known some who converted to EO and Roman Catholicism. I think part of it has to do with a lack of exposure to solid, biblical churches that run contrary to mainstream evangelicalism. They crave structure, piety, and reverence in worship, and so turn to these groups for a better religious experience that seems more in line with their conservative values. When you see how the evangelical churches operate in most of the country (at least in the US/Canada) it’s not that surprising. Even some “reformed” churches, sadly.

Plus when you see how many different denominations there are and how much bickering there is between them, it’s enough to turn a lot of young believers off. The EO/RC church provides the “consistency” they desire (from the outside).
 
Occasionally I read of some Leftist, LGBTQ+, or abortion advocacy group we've been funding around the globe for years and am left scratching my head over how in the dark conservative Christians have been for a long time about our government's global activities using our tax dollars.

Today was this one:

1738413937462.png
 
Occasionally I read of some Leftist, LGBTQ+, or abortion advocacy group we've been funding around the globe for years and am left scratching my head over how in the dark conservative Christians have been for a long time about our government's global activities using our tax dollars.

Today was this one:

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Just wait until you hear about UNWRA
 
I think the flow toward RC and EO is indicative of where our society is. I grew up in an environment in which tradition referred to things usually less than 200-year-old Arminian rubbish, emotional songs with little substance, superficial theology, and no real link to the past. I think that absolutely led me to Presbyterianism, and it makes sense why historic Protestant as well as RC and EO grow because of it. They all say, "we have something ancient and distinct" in a way that evangelicalism doesn't.
 
The proof is in the pudding in my opinion, not to get jingoistic about it.

Were we not the best nation overall in terms of prosperity, safety and opportunity, I don’t think American citizenship —or absent that, residency, legal or not — would not be the most sought after situation that it is.

We have better times and worse times to be sure; and I have been miserable over the last administration’s extreme efforts to promote perversion and murder worldwide and here at home. I see evidence of having reversed course now but God forbid, we could reverse again too.
 
This is horrifying: these revelations just keep coming.

USAGender equity and climate funding in Pakistan, trans rights and awareness in in Vietnam, lgbtq promotion in Latin America and the Caribbean... abortions and population control....

Guys, hate to sound like a broken record, but this is evil. And we paid for it. They even say it's from you. "USAID from the American people."

1738558198564.png
 
This is horrifying: these revelations just keep coming.

USAGender equity and climate funding in Pakistan, trans rights and awareness in in Vietnam, lgbtq promotion in Latin America and the Caribbean... abortions and population control....

Guys, hate to sound like a broken record, but this is evil. And we paid for it. They even say it's from you. "USAID from the American people."

View attachment 11733
Wrong thread?
 
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