"Protestant apologist" Quick pivots to EO

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JP, these statements of yours are what I now think true.
Steve, you yourself have spoken to me in our offline conversations of the presence of believers in the EO church, albeit few in number and possessed of a very simple faith.

I would think that we would say much the same thing about EO that we would about RC. It's a false church with a remnant of true believers inside it.
i.e., there are some genuine believers despite the teachings of a false church.

Jacob @RamistThomist , thanks for sharing your interactions with OB! They are priceless!
 
Reformed Orthodox Bridge is an intellectual joke. While they want to give the impression of dialogue, they censor any Reformed comment that doesn't agree with their articles. I engaged in a quasi-formal debate with them 12 years ago. They stopped interacting and then later blocked me. I had actually forgotten about that until some Protestant scholastic channel found my arguments.


Even funnier, the world's EO apologist, Perry Robinson, also took them to task.
It would be a shame if their bridge went both ways.
 
Jacob, if you would give a brief one-paragraph summary & critique of OB vis-à-vis the Reformed, it would be appreciated!

I want to add this: when I say of Jacob's dealings with the OB, "they are priceless", I do not mean to flatter him, as we know that any wisdom we communicate is not of ourselves, but of Him who gives it to us: "what hast thou that thou didst not receive" from the Lord (1 Cor 4:7). Of ourselves, we are empty husks; of God, we have the riches of Christ.
 
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Jacob, if you would give a brief one-paragraph summary & critique of OB vis-à-vis the Reformed, it would be appreciated!

I want to add this: when I say of Jacob's dealings with the OB, "they are priceless", I do not mean to flatter him, as we know that any wisdom we communicate is not of ourselves, but of Him who gives it to us: "what hast thou that thou didst not receive" from the Lord (1 Cor 4:7). Of ourselves, we are empty husks; of God, we have the riches of Christ.
Thank you. I haven't interacted with them in almost a decade, but every article they wrote had the same assertions. (And everything they said was an assertion. There was very little analysis or argumentation).

"If Protestants would just read Irenaeus, they would see he talks about tradition."

"Calvin said the church fell for 1,000 years." (I corrected them on this and got yelled at).

"Would a Protestant recognize an early church service?" (A Protestant would recognize Justin Martyr's service)/

"We challenge Protestants to be open-minded about history."

That's more or less the summary of every article on that site.
 
It was mentioned above somewhere, that EO folks – particularly converts from Protestant churches – do not talk about Jesus Christ, or His atoning death for sinners, but about the church, the fathers, or other things. It's almost as though they do not know Him, and that there are other things more important than Him. (Cf. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.")
 
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It was mentioned above somewhere, that EO folks – particularly converts from Protestant churches – do not talk about Jesus Christ, or His atoning death for sinners, but about the church, the fathers, or other things. It's almost as though they do not know Him, and that there are other things more important than Him. (Cf. John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.")
That's because they don't, and there are.

That honestly hasn't been my experience with Protestant converts to Eastern Orthodoxy. Most of the ones I know are reacting against many of the same things that you and I would both criticize in broad evangelicalism, especially man-centered worship and a "me and my Bible" individualistic approach to the Christian life, rather than being confessional and learning from church history rather than reinventing wheels, and risking reintroducing old heresies because we don't know (or don't care) how prior generations of Christians have understood key parts of Scripture.

The people I know were asking the right questions and came to the wrong answers to legitimate questions about what is wrong with the American evangelical church.

But I can certainly see how Eastern Orthodoxy will attract people who care about "smells and bells" and beauty in worship rather than Christ's finished work on the cross. Roman Catholicism has the same attractions and there are some people who end up in Constantinople rather than Rome because they have been taught the problems of Rome and see Eastern Orthodoxy as "Rome without the problems of the Papacy."
 
I'm glad to hear that, Darrell. The people I interact with online – primary influencers for EO – say very little, if anything, of or about the Lord Jesus.
 
I'm glad to hear that, Darrell. The people I interact with online – primary influencers for EO – say very little, if anything, of or about the Lord Jesus.

This could be an "online influencer" versus regular believer issue.

There are legitimate and serious problems with American evangelicalism. Eastern Orthodoxy looks better to people who have not spent time in Greece or Russia than to people who have seen the cultural Christianity it often produces.

I'll take a Bible Belt evangelical who loves the Lord any day over a Dutch Reformed guy, or a Scandinavian Lutheran guy, or a Greek or Russian Orthodox guy, or an Italian Catholic guy, for whom his "faith" is custom and superstition based on culture and tradition, not personal conversion. Give the Baptist credit for this: Even the worst of the stereotypical American evangelicals still emphasize the need for personal conversion.

That doesn't always happen in other Christian traditions.

Now of course there are plenty of false conversions in the American South, and a form of Arminianism that is works-based Pelagianism.

But EO and RC cultures often have fruits that even good apologists for their traditions view with disgust.
 
This past week I listened to Aldo Leon's podcast where he discusses "Eastern Unorthodoxy" and later listened to an interview with someone who was trained in EO seminary, THEN became Reformed. It really is shocking how so little of what they seem to believe & practice is Scriptural. I guess some people find authority from man more acceptable than that of Scripture ... which is all that the unbeliever CAN do.
 
I liked his content. Sadly, he's decided to use his platform and turn on the very religion that gave him the platform in the first place. I came from EO and it's disheartening to see people willingly choose idolatry and anxiety over the Gospel and historical honesty.

Echoing what MW said, so many people have been force-fed this idea that Protestantism is just "rock concert and a TED talk" and "40,000 denominations" and they try to go to the East thinking it's this perfect and unified system. It's such a false unity that EO provides between its warring patriarchs and the fact that they have no actual theological system. They always say it's "the apostolic tradition passed down by the fathers," yet they vilify Augustine and wouldn't hesitate to call him a heretic if it didn't harm their "unbroken tradition." Yet they venerate Isaac the Syrian who was not in a canonical jurisdiction. Then they practice things that contradict early fathers, like iconography. They'll argue it's the "consensus of the fathers" but then they'll quote singular fathers after to justify something else unbiblical, like toll houses. Then they'll claim that's not dogma, which is correct because they don't have an actual systematic theology. Which they'll then argue is because it's not mystical, but then if you have a vision it's prelest. They believe in the ecumenical councils that don't even get recognized as ecumenical until later. I'll stop while I'm ahead because I can keep describing the insane circles they run in to justify a broken system that pushes extreme asceticism, scattered clericalism and ludicrous superstition.

I really wish I was more qualified to do apologetics because even if I could help stop a few people from that lunacy, it'd be worth whatever effort.

On the bright side, there are great channels like Rev. Don Baker, Biblical Understanding and Canon & Creed that are showing the Reformed faith is biblical, historic and apostolic.
This is totally non sequitur, but what book recommendations do you for me to educate myself on this particular subject to be better equipped when I run into orthobros
 
This is totally non sequitur, but what book recommendations do you for me to educate myself on this particular subject to be better equipped when I run into orthobros
The Bible.

If you know what it actually says, they'll fail the smell test.
 
I liked his content. Sadly, he's decided to use his platform and turn on the very religion that gave him the platform in the first place. I came from EO and it's disheartening to see people willingly choose idolatry and anxiety over the Gospel and historical honesty.

Echoing what MW said, so many people have been force-fed this idea that Protestantism is just "rock concert and a TED talk" and "40,000 denominations" and they try to go to the East thinking it's this perfect and unified system. It's such a false unity that EO provides between its warring patriarchs and the fact that they have no actual theological system. They always say it's "the apostolic tradition passed down by the fathers," yet they vilify Augustine and wouldn't hesitate to call him a heretic if it didn't harm their "unbroken tradition." Yet they venerate Isaac the Syrian who was not in a canonical jurisdiction. Then they practice things that contradict early fathers, like iconography. They'll argue it's the "consensus of the fathers" but then they'll quote singular fathers after to justify something else unbiblical, like toll houses. Then they'll claim that's not dogma, which is correct because they don't have an actual systematic theology. Which they'll then argue is because it's not mystical, but then if you have a vision it's prelest. They believe in the ecumenical councils that don't even get recognized as ecumenical until later. I'll stop while I'm ahead because I can keep describing the insane circles they run in to justify a broken system that pushes extreme asceticism, scattered clericalism and ludicrous superstition.

I really wish I was more qualified to do apologetics because even if I could help stop a few people from that lunacy, it'd be worth whatever effort.

On the bright side, there are great channels like Rev. Don Baker, Biblical Understanding and Canon & Creed that are showing the Reformed faith is biblical, historic and apostolic.

The Bible.

If you know what it actually says, they'll fail the smell test.
Yes but they don’t really primarily approach anything from the Bible as much as they do from within their own vernacular and supposed infallible tradition. History helps poke holes in their claims but I would like to know some more history that would help me better argue against it.
 
Yes but they don’t really primarily approach anything from the Bible as much as they do from within their own vernacular and supposed infallible tradition. History helps poke holes in their claims but I would like to know some more history that would help me better argue against it.
With both EOs and RCs, the best you can do with the historical record is to argue that it is not monolithic and that there is historical support for Protestant and Reformed positions. But you'll have to face three obstacles behind that: 1) it is often the case that historical support may be stronger on some issues for non-Protestant views; 2) RCs and EOs not only claim that history is on their side, but they also claim the authoritative right to interpret history; 3) they will obfuscate on the difference between doctrinal continuity and doctrinal development.

Ultimately, while some of the arguments can be answered, others can't and shouldn't be answered because they're framed in ways that concede certain foundational beliefs inimicable to Protestantism. So you're just going to have to be prepared to flat out reject some of their claims and to not get roped into arguing with them on their terms. This is why ultimately you not only need to be grounded in the teachings of the Bible but also in the doctrine of Biblical authority and supremacy as our only infallible rule of faith.
 
A quick point here regarding Ploutos' third point on "doctrinal continuity and doctrinal development" -- be aware of John Henry Cardinal Newman's theory of development of doctrine. Many of us in the Reformed world who know Calvin's Institutes and/or the Reformation-era debates with Roman Catholics are using a type of argumentation that won't work with a theologically and historically knowledgeable Roman Catholic.

Both Protestants and Catholics suffered significantly in the 1500s with lack of reliable and factually accurate historical information about both ancient and early medieval church history. That's not anybody's fault -- documents we have today either weren't translated into the common vernacular academic language of the 1500s (Latin, rather than Greek), or they were hidden in some ancient monastery library and didn't get found until centuries later. In other cases, historical frauds or honest mistakes were widely believed to be true by both sides of the debate.

That led to Roman Catholics of the 1500s and even the 1600s and 1700s defending the argument that Catholic doctrine and practice had not changed, or at least had not significantly changed, from the ancient world to their time. Much of the historical section of Calvin's Institutes is devoted to proving that the Roman Catholic Church had significantly changed both its doctrine and its practices, and that some of those changes weren't ancient but of recent vintage (i.e., the early medieval period, only a few centuries earlier than Calvin's day).

I did my senior thesis on Cardinal Newman and I'm well aware that his theory is complex. The short version is that by the 1800s it was no longer possible to argue that many of the major Roman Catholic doctrines had been unambiguously taught in the ancient church or even the Nicene era, i.e., the 300s. Newman didn't argue that full Tridentine orthodoxy was taught in the 100s and 200s. He knew better. What he argued was that the Protestant principle of sola scriptura would logically lead to the teaching of Arius as the Nicene Council, not to trinitarian orthodoxy, and that while papal authority was certainly weak in the ancient world and nothing like later developments and claims, ancient church fathers, including St. Augustine, deferred to Rome in matters of major controversy.

Newman's argument wasn't that doctrine had been constant since the 100s or 200s, but rather that doctrine develops over time. He argued -- and he had a point -- that the Methodism of John and Charles Wesley developed over time from being a pietist movement of reform within the Church of England to become a separate denomination with numerous splinter groups, but that if we study the teaching of the Wesley brothers, we can see quite easily which of the Wesleys' successors were faithfully developing the core doctrines of their founders and which were deviating from them.

He argued that in each major controversy of the church, whether the Arian controversy or the Pelagian controversy or the various medieval controversies, we can look to earlier church history to see which of the two parties was logically and consistently developing the doctrine of their predecessors.

Again, Newman had a point. Those of us who are Van Tillian presuppositionalists will understand the argument that people will be consistent with their core beliefs and presuppositions, and that doctrines have consequences, and if we accept certain principles, they may take us places we did not anticipate and where we do not want to go.

Calvin and Zwingli were both willing to say that some of their doctrines broke with (in their day) twelve to fourteen centuries of church history. They argued that if we can't find something in the Bible, we shouldn't find it in the church. In that, they were quite a bit more radical than Luther.

I believe the Reformed were right. And if I agreed with Cardinal Newman's view that Arius was accurately applying Sola Scriptura, I'd be a Catholic today.

Newman was wrong about Arius. But if we grant his point, many consequences will follow, including that we must rely on church history and church councils to teach us what orthodox doctrine is.

This argument isn't what Calvin or Luther confronted. It's different, and needs to be responded to differently.

With both EOs and RCs, the best you can do with the historical record is to argue that it is not monolithic and that there is historical support for Protestant and Reformed positions. But you'll have to face three obstacles behind that: 1) it is often the case that historical support may be stronger on some issues for non-Protestant views; 2) RCs and EOs not only claim that history is on their side, but they also claim the authoritative right to interpret history; 3) they will obfuscate on the difference between doctrinal continuity and doctrinal development.

Ultimately, while some of the arguments can be answered, others can't and shouldn't be answered because they're framed in ways that concede certain foundational beliefs inimicable to Protestantism. So you're just going to have to be prepared to flat out reject some of their claims and to not get roped into arguing with them on their terms. This is why ultimately you not only need to be grounded in the teachings of the Bible but also in the doctrine of Biblical authority and supremacy as our only infallible rule of faith.
 
A quick point here regarding Ploutos' third point on "doctrinal continuity and doctrinal development" -- be aware of John Henry Cardinal Newman's theory of development of doctrine. Many of us in the Reformed world who know Calvin's Institutes and/or the Reformation-era debates with Roman Catholics are using a type of argumentation that won't work with a theologically and historically knowledgeable Roman Catholic.

Both Protestants and Catholics suffered significantly in the 1500s with lack of reliable and factually accurate historical information about both ancient and early medieval church history. That's not anybody's fault -- documents we have today either weren't translated into the common vernacular academic language of the 1500s (Latin, rather than Greek), or they were hidden in some ancient monastery library and didn't get found until centuries later. In other cases, historical frauds or honest mistakes were widely believed to be true by both sides of the debate.

That led to Roman Catholics of the 1500s and even the 1600s and 1700s defending the argument that Catholic doctrine and practice had not changed, or at least had not significantly changed, from the ancient world to their time. Much of the historical section of Calvin's Institutes is devoted to proving that the Roman Catholic Church had significantly changed both its doctrine and its practices, and that some of those changes weren't ancient but of recent vintage (i.e., the early medieval period, only a few centuries earlier than Calvin's day).

I did my senior thesis on Cardinal Newman and I'm well aware that his theory is complex. The short version is that by the 1800s it was no longer possible to argue that many of the major Roman Catholic doctrines had been unambiguously taught in the ancient church or even the Nicene era, i.e., the 300s. Newman didn't argue that full Tridentine orthodoxy was taught in the 100s and 200s. He knew better. What he argued was that the Protestant principle of sola scriptura would logically lead to the teaching of Arius as the Nicene Council, not to trinitarian orthodoxy, and that while papal authority was certainly weak in the ancient world and nothing like later developments and claims, ancient church fathers, including St. Augustine, deferred to Rome in matters of major controversy.

Newman's argument wasn't that doctrine had been constant since the 100s or 200s, but rather that doctrine develops over time. He argued -- and he had a point -- that the Methodism of John and Charles Wesley developed over time from being a pietist movement of reform within the Church of England to become a separate denomination with numerous splinter groups, but that if we study the teaching of the Wesley brothers, we can see quite easily which of the Wesleys' successors were faithfully developing the core doctrines of their founders and which were deviating from them.

He argued that in each major controversy of the church, whether the Arian controversy or the Pelagian controversy or the various medieval controversies, we can look to earlier church history to see which of the two parties was logically and consistently developing the doctrine of their predecessors.

Again, Newman had a point. Those of us who are Van Tillian presuppositionalists will understand the argument that people will be consistent with their core beliefs and presuppositions, and that doctrines have consequences, and if we accept certain principles, they may take us places we did not anticipate and where we do not want to go.

Calvin and Zwingli were both willing to say that some of their doctrines broke with (in their day) twelve to fourteen centuries of church history. They argued that if we can't find something in the Bible, we shouldn't find it in the church. In that, they were quite a bit more radical than Luther.

I believe the Reformed were right. And if I agreed with Cardinal Newman's view that Arius was accurately applying Sola Scriptura, I'd be a Catholic today.

Newman was wrong about Arius. But if we grant his point, many consequences will follow, including that we must rely on church history and church councils to teach us what orthodox doctrine is.

This argument isn't what Calvin or Luther confronted. It's different, and needs to be responded to differently.
Newman's argument is quite interesting concerning Sola Scriptura. Of course, one can see why he would make such an argument. Many people "straw man" Sola Scriptura as being a "me and my Bible" or "whatever you think Scripture teaches is what it teaches" but that is not a proper definition or application of Sola Scriptura. Confessional Reformed Christians do not (and should not) view the interpretation of the Word of God as an individual endeavor but something that takes place within the church (Ephesians 4:11-16). Even if we granted for the sake of argument that Arius was trying to apply Sola Scriptura, his heretical conclusions do not invalidate it anymore than a sinful father invalidates fatherhood.

Obviously, Arius did not properly apply Sola Scriptura. For one, his views were out of accord with the analogy of Scripture and the analogy of faith. If one lets Scripture interpret Scripture and if one interprets the passages of Scripture in light of other passages and in light of the whole, Arianism is shown to be what it is: heresy.
 
Darrell, what would be the main lines of your response to arguments such as the one made by Newman?

Here's the outline of my argument.

John Henry Cardinal Newman was a brilliant scholar who moved from Anglo-Catholic circles into Roman Catholicism without, so far as I can tell, ever seriously interacting with a fully Reformed view of Scripture and worship.

His presuppositions were fundamentally wrong, and when he realized that Anglicanism was moving into a "broad church" (i.e., liberal) rather than "high church" (Anglo-Catholic) direction, he made the move that, if I had believed what he believed, I might well also have made. The high church Anglican project of creating a new international communion of churches to rival Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy makes sense given its presuppositions, and was within the realistic practical grasp of the Anglicans because of the international power of the British Empire, but that doesn't mean it was right. A bad root produces bad fruit. Newman saw the bad fruit -- and he was right in seeing it -- and made the wrong conclusion that any communion of churches that is not in communion with the successor of St. Peter will eventually collapse.

Given the time in which he lived, his lack of serious interaction with Reformed views of Scripture and worship are not surprising. The Reformed faith was far from being in good condition. The major traditional Reformed body in Britain, the Kirk of Scotland, was in major trouble. The Free Church was moving into directions that eventually led to its merger with other bodies and eventual reunion of the large majority with the Kirk, leaving only a small remnant (the "Wee Frees") that Newman would have regarded as schismatic at best and Donatist at worst. English Presbyterianism had largely been wrecked by the "non-juror" movement which opened the doors for Unitarianism. While there were isolated examples of solid Presbyterian and Congregational churches in Nineteenth Century England, the main evangelical bodies that were growing were groups like the Methodists, Baptists, and Salvation Army. I don't think it's unfair to say that the main Reformed people with whom Newman would have has serious interaction would have been the "Low Church" party of Reformed Anglicans, and they were in bitter warfare with him, less over core theology and more over vestments, liturgy, and Newman's project to return Anglicanism to the teaching of the Nicene and Ante-Nicene Fathers. Newman also suspected -- not without reason -- that "Low Church Anglicans" were a steppingstone to "Broad Church Anglicans" who were theologically liberal.

What I basically say is that Newman is a warning to us to make sure we understand our core presuppositions because if we are not careful, they may take us places we did not plan to go. Theological and political conservatives who care deeply about church history -- which includes many of us in the Reformed world, and for good reason, and who spend much of our time attacking broad evangelicals for thinking the church began with Finney and Moody -- can end up "swimming the Tiber" if we do not have our ecclesiology and soteriology right.

The best argument Newman makes is the argument that Arius was applying Protestant principles. Not because Newman is right, but because there ARE Protestants who do act like Arius did.

The remedy is to take a SERIOUS look at what the historic Reformed confessions, such as the Heidelberg Catechism, did by proving chapter and verse that Christ must be fully human and fully divine to be our Savior. Do some serious looking at what the Reformation era theologians did to teach the Trinity. The principles of biblical interpretation are significantly different from the "me and my Bible on a desert island" concept that a lot of a-historical American evangelicals use.

When Newman said that to delve deeply into church history is to cease to be Protestant, he wasn't entirely wrong. The sort of evangelical Protestantism he saw in Britain was not confessionally Reformed, and he had a valid attack on what he saw.

What did didn't do, as far as I can tell, was to seriously interact with Reformation-era Protestant theology outside his own Anglican circles, where Reformed people had been compromising all the way back to the days of King Henry VIII to remain in the good graces of the Crown.

Geneva is the solution, not Canterbury, Rome, or Constantinople, to the legitimate questions that Newman asked.
 
A side point here -- most people who interact with me either 1) know my background in the Dutch Reformed world as the reporter who spent a decade of my life covering the Christian Reformed secession, or 2) look at my location in the Ozarks and view me as a Calvinist among Bible Belt fundamentalists.

Both are legitimate lenses to understand the people with whom I have spent most of my life interacting, and the arguments with which I interact and argue against. Most of my time today is spent dealing with godly Baptists who love the Lord but know very little about theology or church history.

What's also important to remember is I'm not Dutch. I'm not an Ozark hillbilly. I'm an Italian who can trace my ancestry back to the 900s in the high Alps and mountain passes of Italy. Yes, I said 900s, not 1900s. My great-aunt spent considerable time in Italy decades ago researching parish records, and some of my cousins have done additional research that seems to indicate we have a "pre-history" in Florence dating back to a soldier who was among the younger sons of a minor Florentine noble family, joined a military expedition fighting against pagan tribes in what today would be the Baltics, and received a land grant in the Alps in return for his service. The name "Maurina" is of Latvian origin, not Italian, and while we can't prove the connection, it appears that I had ancestors who received that name as a reward for helping to subjugate the Maurina tribe in Latvia and ended up as minor vassals of an Italian count, commoners who were landowners but not peasants based on their family history of knightly service.

The reason this is relevant is that while today I have no reason other than personal choice, and involvement in the pro-life movement, to deal with Roman Catholics, it is impossible for an Italian not to interact with Catholicism. That's why I chose Newman as the topic for my senior thesis -- I wanted to understand how the man who was regarded as the main Roman Catholic apologist against Protestant liberalism came to his positions.

What Newman did was show me the outworking of Cornelius Van Til's concept of presuppositions.

We need to get our presuppositions right or we'll end up in bad places.
 
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