Can we not keep the 4th commandment and be saved?

[DonP]

Many verses tell us we must keep the commandments if we are born again. What about he 4th commandment? So many today because they are taught poorly do not obey this command. Will they be able to say to God, I didn't know I was not supposed to lie, or I did not know I was not supposed to not have graven images or I didn't know I had to keep the 4th command, the sabbath?

Or will God say ignorance of the moral law is no excuse?

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. NKJV

1 John 3:4-10 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. NKJV

John 14:21-24
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
NKJV

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,NKJV

 

[MMasztal]

This was discussed at some length at the recent Ligonier conference in Orlando.

Sadly, I don't think keeping the Sabbath is a frequent topic of sermons.

 

[OPC'n]

Recently through a pastor here on PB, I have come to observe the Sabbath in all respects. My only hang up is the day change which really isn't a hang up for me, but I would be unable to argue this point of the Sabbath with a person who doesn't observe the Sabbath. Anyway, I think it wrong to assume with certainty that those who do not observe the Sabbath are not saved. In fact, I wouldn't ever assume that. I observe the Sabbath now for this reason: every other day of the week is for my sanctification where everything I do is to glorify God. The Sabbath is a day unto God where it is a time when I worship Him, acknowledge who He is and what He has done, it's all about Him etc. It is a love gift from me to Him (ironically I also benefit from this because He is gracious). It is a time set aside for me to be intimate and focused only on Him. I probably don't feel it to be a commandment set in stone like the rest of you which if a person doesn't observe it they are automatically not saved.

 

[Prufrock]

Honestly, I think that however good the intention behind this question may be (keeping the commandment of God honorable is certainly a noble intention, and holding forth the necessity of our obedience contrary to the rank antinomianism one often finds today), nevertheless I find the question fundamentally flawed: this belongs to the genus of questions, "How much sin can I do and still be saved?" The focus is not upon the proper object.

Instead, we ought rather to trust in both the mercy of God, and in his continued promise to sanctify his children and to bring us unto that perfect obedience in glory -- both leaving the hidden things to God, and fervently exhorting the necessity of obedience and repentance while we yet walk upon this earth.

 

[Pilgrim72]

Many verses tell us we must keep the commandments if we are born again. What about he 4th commandment? So many today because they are taught poorly do not obey this command. Will they be able to say to God, I didn't know I was not supposed to lie, or I did not know I was not supposed to not have graven images or I didn't know I had to keep the 4th command, the sabbath?

Honestly, this post kinda bothers me. As a Christian I am not saved by keeping any commandments. I am saved by the grace of God through Christ.
The commandments are a rule of life for the Christian, and have nothing to do with a person's salvation. We try to keep the commands of God because we love Him, not because we hope to be saved by them.

A wonderful book to read on this subject is Samuel Bolton's "The True Bounds Of Christian Freedom".

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

We are not saved by our imperfect observation of any of the commandments, but by the completed atoning work of Christ and his perfect righteousness fully imputed to us at the instant of saving faith, made possible by his gracious regeneration and effectual calling of the elect.

However, those saved by God’s grace in Christ will to differing degrees delight in the law of God, grieve over the sin which continues to dwell in them, and by God’s grace, thorough continuing faith in Christ, making use of the means of grace, seek Holy Spirit power to overcome their natural disinclination and inability to obey God’s commandments, all ten of them, and their implied obligations and restrictions in though word and deed.

Grace does not make void any of God’s moral law.

 

[Scottish Lass]

I recently got into a discussion where the main counter-argument was that the fourth (and only the fourth) commandment was ceremonial, not moral, and therefore did not require compliance.

Comments?

 

[etexas]

We are not saved by our imperfect observation of any of the commandments, but by the completed atoning work of Christ and his perfect righteousness fully imputed to us at the instant of saving faith, made possible by his gracious regeneration and effectual calling of the elect.

However, those saved by God’s grace in Christ will to differing degrees delight in the law of God, grieve over the sin which continues to dwell in them, and by God’s grace, thorough continuing faith in Christ, making use of the means of grace, seek Holy Spirit power to overcome their natural disinclination and inability to obey God’s commandments, all ten of them, and their implied obligations and restrictions in though word and deed.

Grace does not make void any of God’s moral law.

We follow commands FROM a "law" of love: it "to me" is not Salvation/Not Salvation it is Fruits of my love for the Savour who saved me. If I felt it was Salvation/Not Salvation ,oddly it would bring me to an Arminian "not Sure about my Salvation" Heaven knows I have slipped on following and understanding the tables at times but my assurance is that in the Holy Ghost, Scripture, and The Church I become "aware" of these failings and ask forgiveness and with Our Lord's help, move forward. Grace and Peace.

 

[Scott1]

Many verses tell us we must keep the commandments if we are born again. What about he 4th commandment? So many today because they are taught poorly do not obey this command. Will they be able to say to God, I didn't know I was not supposed to lie, or I did not know I was not supposed to not have graven images or I didn't know I had to keep the 4th command, the sabbath?

Or will God say ignorance of the moral law is no excuse?

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. NKJV

1 John 3:4-10 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. NKJV

John 14:21-24
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
NKJV

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,NKJV

The ten commandments summarily comprehend the moral law, which God commands, His creation, mankind to obey. God's holy standard is perfect obedience. Only Christ did that, which is why He alone satisfied God's standard and was the perfect sacrifice for our sin. Faith in that, Christ's righteousness alone, is the basis for our salvation.

For the believer, who is given faith and called to continue believe and repent of sin, the ten commandments, including the fourth one are a "rule for life." They are something of a summary of what the Christian life is to look like. (That means stopping the pursuit of money and seeking to entertain oneself one day in seven in order to prioritze the whole day on the worship of God).

If a believer does not obey one of them regularly, say the fourth one, will he lose his salvation? No, because he didn't get saved by his own obedience in the first place, but only by the undeserved mercy of a marvelous God.

So, what does happen to a Christian when he disobeys (sins) in thought word, and deed and says, for example, I am not going to prioritize worship of God, and keep the sabbath holy?

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

What will a believer suffer for sin?

Not a loss of salvation, but the sense of isolation from their Creator, misery, the unwelcomed consequences of their sin, and perhaps suffer other kinds of loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

Oh, that God's people would understand that... and, by God's grace, repent of their sin, and by faith believe!

 

[DonP]

I think all on this board will agree we do not get saved by keeping the commandments, nor can we lose our salvation by not. Nor do I mean to ask how much sin can we do and still be saved, which I would agree is an improper question for a Christian to ask.

The question I poorly posed was, is a person who does not obey the commands converted?

And as far as human judgment and church discipline can we admit to membership one who does not keep any one of the commands.

And what of those people taught not to keep the 4th command, are they not born again because God has not put in their hear the desire to obey all of the commands, though we never keep them perfectly, by saving faith we do desire to and make a consistent attempt to.

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. NASB

Can this be said of the 4th command or those who appear to make graven images.

 

[lynnie]

Are you not converted if you have lust or greed or worry?

Can you be a church member if you do not love God with all your heart? Hum, the churches will be empty. Nobody on earth loves Him with all their heart.

I recently got into a discussion where the main counter-argument was that the fourth (and only the fourth) commandment was ceremonial, not moral, and therefore did not require compliance.

Comments?

Well, wasn't this John Calvin's position essentially? ( I happen to agree with a physical day and not just Hebrews 4, but dare we say Calvin was not converted?)

 

[greenbaggins]

I recently got into a discussion where the main counter-argument was that the fourth (and only the fourth) commandment was ceremonial, not moral, and therefore did not require compliance.

Comments?

So the fourth commandment is the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not moral? Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount indicates a paradigmatic way of interpreting all the commandments, and none of them are left behind. James tells us also that the law is one unbroken whole (James 2:8-11). I do realize that you are quoting someone else's argument. So, I am responding to your interlocutor.

 

[Davidius]

While we all appreciate continued zeal for the gospel of grace, I think many are jumping to conclusions and completely talking past the OP.

Every one of us knows that someone who claims the name of Christian but remains in an adulterous relationship for the rest of his life is not really saved. The question, then, is simple. If this is true for other commandments, why not for the fourth commandment?

The best answer I can come up with is that we can't agree on what the fourth commandment entails today, so we treat it as a "non-essential."

 

[Scott1]

I think all on this board will agree we do not get saved by keeping the commandments, nor can we lose our salvation by not. Nor do I mean to ask how much sin can we do and still be saved, which I would agree is an improper question for a Christian to ask.

The question I poorly posed was, is a person who does not obey the commands converted?

We can never be certain, God alone knows for sure. But someone who shows no faith or repentance over a sustained period may be disciplined, and eventually even counted as an unbeliever by virtue of authority Christ has given His Church.

And as far as human judgment and church discipline can we admit to membership one who does not keep any one of the commands.

And what of those people taught not to keep the 4th command,
Scripture tells us those who teach God's Word will be held to a higher standard. But the fact that the Elder, Bishop, Minister gets this wrong does not mean God does not hold individual Christians responsible for obeying Him.
are they not born again because God has not put in their hear the desire to obey all of the commands,
When God redeems a sinner, God puts both the desire and the ability to obey Him in their heart. A remnant of the "old nature" remains and is the stuff of the constant struggle of sanctification. Over time, God's grace will become more apparent in the person's life because has changed the constituent nature of the human being He has redeemed.

That's why another thing God has commanded is so important, what we sometimes call the "means of grace" The Word, prayer, the sacraments. We are commanded to use them frequently to build our faith, and repent. This glorifies God and strengthens our assurance.

though we never keep them perfectly, by saving faith we do desire to and make a consistent attempt to.

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. NASB

Can this be said of the 4th command or those who appear to make graven images.

James 2:10

10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[DonP]

Are you not converted if you have lust or greed or worry?

Can you be a church member if you do not love God with all your heart? Hum, the churches will be empty. Nobody on earth loves Him with all their heart.

I recently got into a discussion where the main counter-argument was that the fourth (and only the fourth) commandment was ceremonial, not moral, and therefore did not require compliance.

Comments?

Well, wasn't this John Calvin's position essentially? ( I happen to agree with a physical day and not just Hebrews 4, but dare we say Calvin was not converted?)

No I do not think this was Calvin's position. Some say he was weak or had a continental view of the sabbath because of a questionable report of him lawn bowling, but the Dutch Ministers were very clear and strict on the sabbath and so was Calvin if you read him thoroughly.
To clear the error this article is great.

On John Calvin’s doctrine of the fourth commandment see especially Institutes of the Christian Religion, II, viii. 28-34. The three points of his Sabbath doctrine are: (1) Sabbath is a figure of spiritual rest in Christ; (2) Sabbath serves as a day for public worship; (3) Sabbath serves as a day of rest for servants and beasts. Perhaps the best study of Calvin’s view is Richard B. Gaffin, Jr.’s unpublished Th. M. thesis, Calvin and the Sabbath (Philadelphia: Westminster Theological Seminary, 1962). Calvin’s view may be called a ‘practical Sabbatarianism’ – an evaluation supported by the recent investigation of John H. Primus … although Primus avoids the phrase.[6]

In his several writings on this topic, John Primus has probably done the most in recent times to set the record straight on Calvin and Lord’s Day observance.[7] He demonstrates clearly from Calvin’s 34th Sermon on Deuteronomy that while Calvin’s doctrine of the fourth commandment differs from that of the Puritans, the ethic of how one is to observe the day is similar.[8] Primus writes, "Calvin calls for a literal, physical cessation of daily labor on the Lord’s Day, not as an end in itself, but to provide time for worship of God. Recreational activity should also be suspended, for such activity interferes with worship as certainly as daily labor does. ‘If we spend the Lord’s day in making good cheer, and in playing and gaming, is that a good honouring of God? Nay, is it not a mockery, yea and a very unhallowing of his name?’"[9] Calvin
I commend this excellent article quoted above and found at Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: or, Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath? by Chris Coldwell

And as has been said no one keeps the commands perfectly but Lynnie would you say you do not believe in Loving the Lord with all your heart and that you do not try to love the Lord with all your heart because you do not belie you are commanded to?
This is the issue we are speaking to on the 4th commandment.

And why would this one not be part of the moral law of God, it was around before the 10 were given to Israel. Where do we read in scripture it is not part of moral law? And lastly, that would be an unconfessional position.

 

[lshepler412]

Many Christians, even some who are Reformed do not believe the command extends beyond attending church on Sunday. They eat out and go shopping on Sunday. I miss having an evening service because I think the day should be spent in prayer and praise and in hearing and reading God's Word as the catechism says. They may not have an accurate view of the Sabbath but I definitely don't think that means they aren't saved.

 

[DonP]

They may not have an accurate view of the Sabbath but I definitely don't think that means they aren't saved.

So are you saying, if one said they do not believe the commandment not to have images and they have them they can be saved and if one says I do not believe the commandment to not steal applies to us under grace it was for Israel only, they can be converted by the miraculous saving grace of God and be a new creature, old things passed away and all things new?

 

[Hippo]

They may not have an accurate view of the Sabbath but I definitely don't think that means they aren't saved.

So are you saying, if one said they do not believe the commandment not to have images and they have them they can be saved and if one says I do not believe the commandment to not steal applies to us under grace it was for Israel only, they can be converted by the miraculous saving grace of God and be a new creature, old things passed away and all things new?

Of course they can be saved, whether they are or not is another question. We all have hidden sin (I doubt that we truly Love God with all our hearts) but we can still be saved by grace.

 

[raekwon]

Seems to me that the answer to the original question is the same as it would be for any other commandment: "Not without Jesus".

 

[Prufrock]

While we all appreciate continued zeal for the gospel of grace, I think many are jumping to conclusions and completely talking past the OP.

Every one of us knows that someone who claims the name of Christian but remains in an adulterous relationship for the rest of his life is not really saved. The question, then, is simple. If this is true for other commandments, why not for the fourth commandment?

The best answer I can come up with is that we can't agree on what the fourth commandment entails today, so we treat it as a "non-essential."

Respectfully, while this may apply to some responses, make sure you're not talking past the responses themselves. I am a presbyterian: clearly I believe that observing the sabbath is binding just as much as any of the other nine commandments. What I object to is the nature or form of the question itself: "How much can one sin and still be saved?"

 

[Scott1]

PeaceMaker

On John Calvin’s doctrine of the fourth commandment see especially Institutes of the Christian Religion, II, viii. 28-34. The three points of his Sabbath doctrine are:

You may find a search of the Board on this helpful to see this discussed, or you may wish to start another thread on it.

Suffice it to say, even the greatest of the great whom God has gifted as theologians aren't perfect.

 

[DonP]

Of course they can be saved, whether they are or not is another question. We all have hidden sin (I doubt that we truly Love God with all our hearts) but we can still be saved by grace.

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

 

[Davidius]

While we all appreciate continued zeal for the gospel of grace, I think many are jumping to conclusions and completely talking past the OP.

Every one of us knows that someone who claims the name of Christian but remains in an adulterous relationship for the rest of his life is not really saved. The question, then, is simple. If this is true for other commandments, why not for the fourth commandment?

The best answer I can come up with is that we can't agree on what the fourth commandment entails today, so we treat it as a "non-essential."

Respectfully, while this may apply to some responses, make sure you're not talking past the responses themselves. I am a presbyterian: clearly I believe that observing the sabbath is binding just as much as any of the other nine commandments. What I object to is the nature or form of the question itself: "How much can one sin and still be saved?"

I still think the issue is that you don't understand the question. Mr. Partridge has clarified his meaning in several subsequent posts, and you still seem to believe that he's asking how much one can sin without losing his salvation.

 

[Prufrock]

I shall not wrangle; I understand the question and I realize it is not about losing salvation.

I apologize for not having expressed my objection more clearly. Peace, brother.

 

[Theoretical]

While we all appreciate continued zeal for the gospel of grace, I think many are jumping to conclusions and completely talking past the OP.

Every one of us knows that someone who claims the name of Christian but remains in an adulterous relationship for the rest of his life is not really saved. The question, then, is simple. If this is true for other commandments, why not for the fourth commandment?

The best answer I can come up with is that we can't agree on what the fourth commandment entails today, so we treat it as a "non-essential."

Assume WLC-grade Sabbatarianism is the standard for this discussion.

What makes persistent Sabbath-breaking (even out of ignorance) any different than ongoing adultery? This is what the question posed appears to be suggesting.

If adultery is the greatest 7th-breaker, then what would be its corresponding 4th commandment equivalent?

Now have a professing Christian week-in and week-out break it (since we're using the 7th) not in the sense of one having periodic struggles with a random lustful thought, but in the sene of ongoing adultery. Arguably most of the American church, including those who are sound in every other area of doctrine and practice, have this massive blind spot regarding the 4th.

The question is how if at all does persistent sabbath breaking differ from persistent sexual immorality, chronic lying/deceit, and the like in terms of identifying someone as Christian.

 

[Hippo]

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

But "imperfections of the flesh" are rebellion, that is the nature of the original sin that permeates our flesh.

If you were to say that there is reason to doubt the salvation of those who do not grow in the fruits of salvation then absolutley yes, but such growth takes time and may never be completed in this life. Someone may not understand the 4th commandment until his later years or that same person may die young. The failure of him reaching a destination of sanctification in this life is immaterial to salvation.

 

[DonP]

Assume WLC-grade Sabbatarianism is the standard for this discussion.

What makes persistent Sabbath-breaking (even out of ignorance) any different than ongoing adultery? This is what the question posed appears to be suggesting.

If adultery is the greatest 7th-breaker, then what would be its corresponding 4th commandment equivalent?

Now have a professing Christian week-in and week-out break it (since we're using the 7th) not in the sense of one having periodic struggles with a random lustful thought, but in the sene of ongoing adultery. Arguably most of the American church, including those who are sound in every other area of doctrine and practice, have this massive blind spot.

The question is how if at all does persistent sabbath breaking differ from persistent sexual immorality, chronic lying/deceit, and the like in terms of identifying someone as Christian.

Thanks, now having clarified the question would you please give us the answer?

 

[Davidius]

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

But "imperfections of the flesh" are rebellion, that is the nature of the original sin that permeates our flesh.

If you were to say that there is reason to doubt the salvation of those who do not grow in the fruits of salvation then absolutley yes, but such growth takes time and may never be completed in this life. Someone may not understand the 4th commandment until his later years or that same person may die young. The failure of him reaching a destination of sanctification in this life is immaterial to salvation.

The question has to do with someone who obstinately, their whole life long, rejects the commandment. Why are they treated differently from someone who does that with the other commandments, like lying, stealing, adulterating, image worship, etc.?

Again, I submit that we throw it on our arbitrary pile of "non-essentials" because we can't agree on what the 4th commandment actually means. If someone claims to know what keeping the Sabbath entails, he cannot consistently say that the person who obstinately refuses to abide by that commandment is actually full of the grace of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Prufrock]

The question has to do with someone who obstinately, their whole life long, rejects the commandment. Why are they treated differently from someone who does that with the other commandments, like lying, stealing, adulterating, image worship, etc.?

Again, I submit that we throw it on our arbitrary pile of "non-essentials" because we can't agree on what the 4th commandment actually means. If someone claims to know what keeping the Sabbath entails, he cannot consistently say that the person who obstinately refuses to abide by that commandment is actually full of the grace of the Holy Spirit.

They shouldn't be treated differently. They should be admonished all alike. If, at least, we are right about the Sabbath (which I do not doubt).

Although, practically considered, this one requires perhaps more gentleness and sensitivity. Few do not realize lying is wrong; more, perhaps, sincerely do not realize sabbath-breaking is a sin. Rather than coming at these with both cannons blazing, we should approach them with gentle admonishment and direction first.

 

[lynnie]

Peacemaker- thank you for the very interesting quotes about Calvin. I never researched it, but just assumed that he was heavy on the Hebrews 4, Christ our sabbath, position from what I have heard.

So, is the standard joke that John Calvin could not be ordained in the OPC because of his position on the Sabbath true or not? I would be curious to hear from the OPC guys here. If they say he could not be ordained, well then, I think that has a lot to say to the initial post. I do think he was converted .