Can we not keep the 4th commandment and be saved?

[Hippo]

The question has to do with someone who obstinately, their whole life long, rejects the commandment. Why are they treated differently from someone who does that with the other commandments, like lying, stealing, adulterating, image worship, etc.?

The short answer is that they are not, but it is God who decides how he treats us and his decision is unconditional on our actions.

We all obstinately sin, anyone who denies that does not understand sin, ignoring the OP which is at best badly worded the question that you ask is more to do with Church discipline than anyone else. Underlying your points is the concept of how far is our concept of Church discipline culteraly based, i.e. which sins are culturaly acceptable.

This is an interesting point and worthy of discussion but it is that wider subject that should be discussed, not some subset of sin that you happen to feel strongly about.

 

[lynnie]

And as has been said no one keeps the commands perfectly but Lynnie would you say you do not believe in Loving the Lord with all your heart and that you do not try to love the Lord with all your heart because you do not belie you are commanded to?
This is the issue we are speaking to on the 4th commandment.

Of course I believe we should. I just thought Calvin ( and others) are convinced that they obey it just by being in Christ ( Heb 4). We all want to obey, the question is how.

I have a messianic friend who is certain she pleases God and obeys by celebrating all the feasts. We are commanded to celebrate them too. But I say that in Christ I keep the Passover in communion, and all the rest of the feasts in other ways, in Him. So I do obey all the law, every word, but it is by his perfect active obedience imputed to me. Not by what I do.

 

[DonP]

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

But "imperfections of the flesh" are rebellion, that is the nature of the original sin that permeates our flesh.

You little rascal you, you did not answer my question?

Do you see the difference of saying I choose not to believe and obey that command and not keeping it perfectly when you believe it and want to?

And are we all saying we disagree with the WC and that we do not have an adequate understanding of the Sabbath? Being Confessional I do know a minimal requirement of the sabbath. I like Larger Cat on it as well.

And Lynnie as for Calvin, well he certainly could be ordained in the NW pres of the OPC. I mean
Read the articles and you will see he was more of a sabbatarian than many who claim to be today.

 

[gene_mingo]

My short answer would be yes, we can completely reject all of the commandments our entire lives and the moment we are about to die, God can save us. This would apply to all the law.

I guess I always saw the story of the thief on the cross as evidence of this.

 

[Hippo]

But "imperfections of the flesh" are rebellion, that is the nature of the original sin that permeates our flesh.

You little rascal you, you did not answer my question?

Do you see the difference of saying I choose not to believe and obey that command and not keeping it perfectly when you believe it and want to?

Just becuase you do not like my answer does not mean I did not give one

I do not agree the distinction between not obeying and not obeying perfectly.

You seem to see a failure to obey perfectly as not really being our fault, perhaps because we do not have the ability to do so while you see a stark failure to obey as being in a different class but both are rooted in the same rebellion. Trying really hard does not limit the reality of sin or lessen the penalty.

Somewhere in your approach is the good point that we expect the fruits of the spirit to follow regeneration and one of these will be obeying God's commandments. What we cannot do is dictate what and when these will be.

 

[CharlieJ]

I believe the question makes a point but also includes a flaw. We do know from the Bible that those who persist in rebellious, unrepentant sin are not to be regarded as born again and allowed to the Lord's Supper. However, rebellious, unrepentant sin needs some qualifiers.

1. The person must be aware that their action or omission is sin.

2. They must be habitually engaged in this sin.

3. They must be in this sin without remorse or struggle against it.

4. They must have been properly confronted by the Church about it.


So, if a person were a member of an OPC church that clearly proclaimed the doctrine of the 4th commandment, and if that person mentally assented to the doctrine yet refused to live by it (not even attempting), and if the church's loving yet firm confrontation had failed to yield any fruit, then he should be delivered unto Satan. Even then, there is a possibility that the discipline itself may be God's means to bring about repentance.

 

[DonP]

My short answer would be yes, we can completely reject all of the commandments our entire lives and the moment we are about to die, God can save us. This would apply to all the law.

I guess I always saw the story of the thief on the cross as evidence of this.

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

The question was not can a sinner be converted but can person be converted and willfully not obey the commands, or even out of ignorance not obey a command.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 07:10:55 EST-----

But "imperfections of the flesh" are rebellion, that is the nature of the original sin that permeates our flesh.

You little rascal you, you did not answer my question?

Do you see the difference of saying I choose not to believe and obey that command and not keeping it perfectly when you believe it and want to?

Just becuase you do not like my answer does not mean I did not give one

I do not agree the distinction between not obeying and not obeying perfectly.

You seem to see a failure to obey perfectly as not really being our fault, perhaps because we do not have the ability to do so while you see a stark failure to obey as being in a different class but both are rooted in the same rebellion. Trying really hard does not limit the reality of sin or lessen the penalty.

Its not I didn't like your answer. I didn't think you answered it.

And yes I see imperfection as a sin. I just see it is not the same as a willful disregard of the law and obedience. The first is with us even when we have a new heart and desire to obey. The second is devoid of desire to obey.

 

[gene_mingo]

My short answer would be yes, we can completely reject all of the commandments our entire lives and the moment we are about to die, God can save us. This would apply to all the law.

I guess I always saw the story of the thief on the cross as evidence of this.

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

Absolutely not.


There is only one who kept all the commandments His entire life.

I guess then this actually leads into a discussion about sanctification perhaps.

 

[DonP]

I believe the question makes a point but also includes a flaw. We do know from the Bible that those who persist in rebellious, unrepentant sin are not to be regarded as born again and allowed to the Lord's Supper. However, rebellious, unrepentant sin needs some qualifiers.

1. The person must be aware that their action or omission is sin.

2. They must be habitually engaged in this sin.

3. They must be in this sin without remorse or struggle against it.

4. They must have been properly confronted by the Church about it.


So, if a person were a member of an OPC church that clearly proclaimed the doctrine of the 4th commandment, and if that person mentally assented to the doctrine yet refused to live by it (not even attempting), and if the church's loving yet firm confrontation had failed to yield any fruit, then he should be delivered unto Satan. Even then, there is a possibility that the discipline itself may be God's means to bring about repentance.

Sorry Charlie. The only test is repentance. Once instructed by their Confessional elder the need to obey all 10 commandments, should they be unrepentant and persist, none of your 1-3 matter. They repent, turn from it or they don't, they say I don't believe in the 4th command applying to me or that I can't work on the lord's day or engage in unnecessary commercial events , or should spend the day especially in holy duties for the Lord setting it apart from other days as a type of heaven etc. .

Unbelief and not submitting to the elders doctrine is also a sin.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 07:19:00 EST-----

My short answer would be yes, we can completely reject all of the commandments our entire lives and the moment we are about to die, God can save us. This would apply to all the law.

I guess I always saw the story of the thief on the cross as evidence of this.

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

Absolutely not.


There is only one who kept all the commandments His entire life.

I guess then this actually leads into a discussion about sanctification perhaps.

You misunderstood. One who persists in willfully not obeying the commands all his life is unsaved.

Not one who imperfectly attempts to keep all of them.

 

[calgal]

So Don my LDS friends who would not darken the door of a grocery store, restaurant or any establishment buying and selling anything on Sunday are saved? And the folks that go out to dinner or run to the store for milk and bread are not saved? The LDS take the fourth commandment as they understand it and try to live it. Now I am quite aware their doctrine is not Christian but they are sabbatarians and that counts for something....Or does it....

Speaking as a non sabbatarian, this approach frankly is not going to win any points. If you want to discuss the benefits and ways to properly spend ones Sunday (or Saturday) then that might get a listen. But being told I am unsaved for turning on a light switch, taking a shower, jumping in the car, going to church, going to the store for lunch, shoveling snow, walking the dogs, cleaning up dog poop from the yard, doing a load of laundry (dogs tend to barf and so do kids from what I hear at the worst possible time) is getting into the kind of nonsense the folks at Chabad shovel out (Hi Tim V! ).

 

[DonP]

So Don my LDS friends who would not darken the door of a grocery store, restaurant or any establishment buying and selling anything on Sunday are saved? And the folks that go out to dinner or run to the store for milk and bread are not saved? The LDS take the fourth commandment as they understand it and try to live it. Now I am quite aware their doctrine is not Christian but they are sabbatarians and that counts for something....Or does it....

Speaking as a non sabbatarian, this approach frankly is not going to win any points. If you want to discuss the benefits and ways to properly spend ones Sunday (or Saturday) then that might get a listen. But being told I am unsaved for turning on a light switch, taking a shower, jumping in the car, going to church, going to the store for lunch, shoveling snow, walking the dogs, cleaning up dog poop from the yard, doing a load of laundry (dogs tend to barf and so do kids from what I hear at the worst possible time) is getting into the kind of nonsense the folks at Chabad shovel out (Hi Tim V! ).

That is absurd and no one has said any of that.
Are you under conviction to retaliate so irrationally?

And I wouldn't discuss how to spend one's sunday if we are not under command to keep it as the sabbath then it would be totally a matter of personal choice.

 

[gene_mingo]

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

Absolutely not.


There is only one who kept all the commandments His entire life.

I guess then this actually leads into a discussion about sanctification perhaps.

You misunderstood. One who persists in willfully not obeying the commands all his life is unsaved.

Not one who imperfectly attempts to keep all of them.

Our fallen natures will is to sin. Until we are fully sanctified we will continue to willfully sin.

Again I think this leads to a discussion about sanctification.

 

[he beholds]

Of course they can be saved, whether they are or not is another question. We all have hidden sin (I doubt that we truly Love God with all our hearts) but we can still be saved by grace.

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

Even if one doesn't spend Sunday the same ways you do, he may 1)not be sinning, or 2) not know he's sinning.
There are many people who think Christ is our Sabbath rest--Sunday is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day.

Now if that person is right, the only way for him to not keep the Sabbath is to not be in Christ. So yes, in that understanding, one cannot be saved if he does not keep the Sabbath.


And for the question that is sure to come, why is only the fourth commandment changed?
I think we could see that all of the commandments were changed in some way with Christ. With Christ came the knowledge that our hearts are really what is in question. So now we see none of us are able to keep even one of the commandments. But we know that they are all fulfilled.

 

[cih1355]

Suppose someone believes that the 4th commandment has been abrogated, but keeps the Sabbath anyway. Is he really obeying the 4th commandment?

 

[DonP]

Our fallen natures will is to sin. Until we are fully sanctified we will continue to willfully sin.

i think
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. NKJV

I am not getting in to how to sanctify the sabbath in this thread, just if those God puts a new nature in, will desire to obey the 10 commandments and seek to obey them or if they can believe they do not have to obey any of them.

 

[he beholds]

Of course they can be saved, whether they are or not is another question. We all have hidden sin (I doubt that we truly Love God with all our hearts) but we can still be saved by grace.

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a difference between not keeping a command perfectly and not choosing to keep it at all.

Don't you see a difference?
To me one is imperfections of the flesh,one is rebellion or at least not obeying.
In His Service,

WHY is there a difference? In this scenario, the two people are both sinning. In fact, it would seem the one who believes that it is a sin to do work or watch TV on the Sabbath would be more guilty for breaking it than the one who chooses not to keep it at all. Thankfully, our righteousness is not what we lean on.

My short answer would be yes, we can completely reject all of the commandments our entire lives and the moment we are about to die, God can save us. This would apply to all the law.

I guess I always saw the story of the thief on the cross as evidence of this.

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

The question was not can a sinner be converted but can person be converted and willfully not obey the commands, or even out of ignorance not obey a command.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 07:10:55 EST-----

You little rascal you, you did not answer my question?

Do you see the difference of saying I choose not to believe and obey that command and not keeping it perfectly when you believe it and want to?

Just becuase you do not like my answer does not mean I did not give one

I do not agree the distinction between not obeying and not obeying perfectly.

You seem to see a failure to obey perfectly as not really being our fault, perhaps because we do not have the ability to do so while you see a stark failure to obey as being in a different class but both are rooted in the same rebellion. Trying really hard does not limit the reality of sin or lessen the penalty.

Its not I didn't like your answer. I didn't think you answered it.

And yes I see imperfection as a sin. I just see it is not the same as a willful disregard of the law and obedience. The first is with us even when we have a new heart and desire to obey. The second is devoid of desire to obey.

Where does that desire come from? Not of yourself.

I believe the question makes a point but also includes a flaw. We do know from the Bible that those who persist in rebellious, unrepentant sin are not to be regarded as born again and allowed to the Lord's Supper. However, rebellious, unrepentant sin needs some qualifiers.

1. The person must be aware that their action or omission is sin.

2. They must be habitually engaged in this sin.

3. They must be in this sin without remorse or struggle against it.

4. They must have been properly confronted by the Church about it.


So, if a person were a member of an OPC church that clearly proclaimed the doctrine of the 4th commandment, and if that person mentally assented to the doctrine yet refused to live by it (not even attempting), and if the church's loving yet firm confrontation had failed to yield any fruit, then he should be delivered unto Satan. Even then, there is a possibility that the discipline itself may be God's means to bring about repentance.

Sorry Charlie. The only test is repentance. Once instructed by their Confessional elder the need to obey all 10 commandments, should they be unrepentant and persist, none of your 1-3 matter. They repent, turn from it or they don't, they say I don't believe in the 4th command applying to me or that I can't work on the lord's day or engage in unnecessary commercial events , or should spend the day especially in holy duties for the Lord setting it apart from other days as a type of heaven etc. .

Unbelief and not submitting to the elders doctrine is also a sin.

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 07:19:00 EST-----

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

Absolutely not.


There is only one who kept all the commandments His entire life.

I guess then this actually leads into a discussion about sanctification perhaps.

You misunderstood. One who persists in willfully not obeying the commands all his life is unsaved.

Not one who imperfectly attempts to keep all of them.

I am going to make an admission here, not out of pride, because I am not proud of this. But maybe there are others who will read my post following yours and find relief. My admission: I do persist in willfully not obeying God's law, and I imagine I will do this all my life.
I do not think it is possible to not do this, this side of glory. I want to say this for the other people who know that they sometimes sin on purpose.
It is bad, bad, bad to sin. It is bad, bad, bad to do it on purpose. Repent of that sin! But do so while trusting in Christ's righteousness, not your own. Maybe you are blessed to know that you sin on purpose--that way you know there is nothing apart from Christ that pleases God.

Perhaps there are two types of Christians: people who sin willingly, and others who will not to sin, but just can't help it--it is not their fault, I guess. They, unlike the willful sinners, TRY to keep the law. And even though they can't, they get some credit for trying.

 

[gene_mingo]

Our fallen natures will is to sin. Until we are fully sanctified we will continue to willfully sin.

i think
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. NKJV

I am not getting in to how to sanctify the sabbath in this thread, just if those God puts a new nature in, will desire to obey the 10 commandments and seek to obey them or if they can believe they do not have to obey any of them.

I think you are incorrectly applying that verse to willfull sin.

Here is what Matthew Henry has to say about it.

V. Having mentioned these means of establishment, the apostle proceeds, in the close of the chapter, to enforce his exhortations to perseverance, and against apostasy, by many very weighty considerations, v. 26, 27, &c.
1. From the description he gives of the sin of apostasy. It is sinning wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, sinning wilfully against that truth of which we have had convincing evidence. This text has been the occasion of great distress to some gracious souls; they have been ready to conclude that every wilful sin, after conviction and against knowledge, is the unpardonable sin: but this has been their infirmity and error. The sin here mentioned is a total and final apostasy, when men with a full and fixed will and resolution despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour,—despise and resist the Spirit, the only sanctifier,—and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life; and all this after they have known, owned, and professed, the Christian religion, and continue to do so obstinately and maliciously. This is the great transgression: the apostle seems to refer to the law concerning presumptuous sinners, Num. xv. 30, 31. They were to be cut off.

I agree with M.H. and what is being discussed is total apostasy.

 

[he beholds]

Our fallen natures will is to sin. Until we are fully sanctified we will continue to willfully sin.

i think
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. NKJV

I am not getting in to how to sanctify the sabbath in this thread, just if those God puts a new nature in, will desire to obey the 10 commandments and seek to obey them or if they can believe they do not have to obey any of them.

A quick read on Calvin (and in my opinion a quick read of Hebrews 10) indicates that Heb 10:26 is speaking of apostasy, not just any sin.

Those who sin, mentioned by the Apostle, are not such as offend in any way, but such as forsake the Church, and wholly alienate themselves from Christ. For he speaks not here of this or of that sin, but he condemns by name those who willfully renounced fellowship with the Church. But there is a vast difference between particular fallings and a complete defection of this kind, by which we entirely fall away from the grace of Christ. And as this cannot be the case with any one except he has been already enlightened, he says, If we sin willfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth; as though he had said, “If we knowingly and willingly renounce the grace which we had obtained.” It is now evident how widely apart is this doctrine from the error of Novatus

And that the Apostle here refers only to apostates, is clear from the whole passage; for what he treats of is this, that those who had been once received into the Church ought not to forsake it, as some were wont to do. He now declares that there remained for such no sacrifice for sin, because they had willfully sinned after having received the knowledge of the truth. But as to sinners who fall in any other way, Christ offers himself daily to them, so that they are to seek no other sacrifice for expiating their sins. He denies, then, that any sacrifice remains for them who renounce the death of Christ, which is not done by any offense except by a total renunciation of the faith.

This severity of God is indeed dreadful, but it is set forth for the purpose of inspiring terror. He cannot, however, be accused of cruelty; for as the death of Christ is the only remedy by which we can be delivered from eternal death, are not they who destroy as far as they can its virtue and benefit worthy of being left to despair? God invites to daily reconciliation those who abide in Christ; they are daily washed by the blood of Christ, their sins are daily expiated by his perpetual sacrifice. As salvation is not to be sought except in him, there is no need to wonder that all those who willfully forsake him are deprived of every hope of pardon: this is the import of the adverb ἔτι, more. But Christ’s sacrifice is efficacious to the godly even to death, though they often sin; nay, it retains ever its efficacy, for this very reason, because they cannot be free from sin as long as they dwell in the flesh. The Apostle then refers to those alone who wickedly forsake Christ, and thus deprive themselves of the benefit of his death.

 

[MrMerlin777]

Does anyone perfectly keep the commandments? No.

Should we out of gratitude to Christ attempt with all we can muster to do so? Yes.

That's all I have to add to this thread.

 

[calgal]

So Don my LDS friends who would not darken the door of a grocery store, restaurant or any establishment buying and selling anything on Sunday are saved? And the folks that go out to dinner or run to the store for milk and bread are not saved? The LDS take the fourth commandment as they understand it and try to live it. Now I am quite aware their doctrine is not Christian but they are sabbatarians and that counts for something....Or does it....

Speaking as a non sabbatarian, this approach frankly is not going to win any points. If you want to discuss the benefits and ways to properly spend ones Sunday (or Saturday) then that might get a listen. But being told I am unsaved for turning on a light switch, taking a shower, jumping in the car, going to church, going to the store for lunch, shoveling snow, walking the dogs, cleaning up dog poop from the yard, doing a load of laundry (dogs tend to barf and so do kids from what I hear at the worst possible time) is getting into the kind of nonsense the folks at Chabad shovel out (Hi Tim V! ).

That is absurd and no one has said any of that.
Are you under conviction to retaliate so irrationally?

And I wouldn't discuss how to spend one's sunday if we are not under command to keep it as the sabbath then it would be totally a matter of personal choice.

So I note that you are not answering the question: isthe LDS who do keep the sabbath as YOU see fit are okey dokey and a Christian who decides to go get a burger is cursed? You and others did imply that being strict (and y'all are not even close to strict: you DO turn on the stove, the lights, the water faucet, drive your cars (mandating cops, firefighters, electric and gas company workers & hospital workers work on Sunday) and any number of things that require someone else to go to work) is a sign of salvation. So then at what point does one "look unsaved?"

And despite your amusing attempts at a slur, I am under conviction to loathe idolatry and extreme legalism in all its sick permutations (when someone walks a precise # of steps on the Sabbath and walking one more step = work that would be legalism at its worst and praising the bestest Sabbath Keepers would make the Pharisees proud).

 

[DonP]

I only know this and believe this. I don't base my beliefs on someone's life and experience. This of course is not speaking of a one time sin or rare occasion but one who does not mortify sin, repent, which is to turn from it to new behavior, but continues in the same sin. So even if the Heb verse is speaking of willful unbelief in Christ as opposed to willful sin of any kind these verses are clear.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother NKJV

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. NKJV

 

[lshepler412]

They may not have an accurate view of the Sabbath but I definitely don't think that means they aren't saved.

So are you saying, if one said they do not believe the commandment not to have images and they have them they can be saved and if one says I do not believe the commandment to not steal applies to us under grace it was for Israel only, they can be converted by the miraculous saving grace of God and be a new creature, old things passed away and all things new?

Good question. By images I'm assuming that you are including pictures such as pictures of Christ perhaps in Sunday School material. I know the Christian Reformed use these pictures I believe in their Sunday School material. Of course other Christians do to. Does this mean that none of them are believers if they use these pictures? I think they have a poor undertanding of the totality of what the command actually means and includes. Myself, I will not use images. All Christians should know that we are still bound by the moral law and that we are not to steal or commit adultery and that is very clear what that means but perhaps how the Sabbath should be observed or whether pictures of Christ would violate the second commandment is not as clear to some but I think they can still be saved and we are growing in santification. Would a PCA or OPC church discipline someone who had a picture of Christ in their living room or who went to church and then always went to the mall on Sunday afternoon? I'm not sure they would but there would certainly be disciplinary action taken if someone was committing adultery or stealing. I don't know if this clarifies anything and I don't claim to be the best at explaining things. Also, I don't mean to imply that certain commandments can be broken and others not.

 

[kvanlaan]

I am going to make an admission here, not out of pride, because I am not proud of this. But maybe there are others who will read my post following yours and find relief. My admission: I do persist in willfully not obeying God's law, and I imagine I will do this all my life.
I do not think it is possible to not do this, this side of glory. I want to say this for the other people who know that they sometimes sin on purpose.
It is bad, bad, bad to sin. It is bad, bad, bad to do it on purpose. Repent of that sin! But do so while trusting in Christ's righteousness, not your own. Maybe you are blessed to know that you sin on purpose--that way you know there is nothing apart from Christ that pleases God.

But do you hate that you do it? Big question.

Should we out of gratitude to Christ attempt with all we can muster to do so? Yes.

I love this illustration: A man walking through deep snow with his big strides, while his son, trying to keep up with him, tries to jump from foot-hole to foot-hole, falls often, but anyone watching can see that he's trying.

 

[gene_mingo]

I only know this and believe this. I don't base my beliefs on someone's life and experience. This of course is not speaking of a one time sin or rare occasion but one who does not mortify sin, repent, which is to turn from it to new behavior, but continues in the same sin. So even if the Heb verse is speaking of willful unbelief in Christ as opposed to willful sin of any kind these verses are clear.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother NKJV

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. NKJV

Those are good verses on justification, but I fail to see how they support your point.

Romans 3:21-28 KJV

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Edward]

Can we not keep the 4th commandment and be saved?

Of course.

 

[DonP]

Can we not keep the 4th commandment and be saved?

Of course.

Can we not believe in the 1st 3rd and 9th commandment and consistently intentionally not obey them if we are converted?

 

[Pilgrim72]

Then you agree with us that someone who does not obey all the commands all his life is not converted.

Wow. This statement is really messed up. Sorry, but I truly hope no one on this board actually believes that.

This is not the Gospel at all.

 

[moral necessity]

Technically, we can behaviorally not keep every commandment and be saved. As Luther said, "The Gospel is outside of you." Our salvation is not based upon what we do, but is based entirely upon what Christ did for us and imputed to us. What we do now is controlled entirely by what the Spirit convicts us of and impells us to perform as believers. Many fall short of what is proper for them to do, and yet, they are saved because of their faith in the redeemer. Conformity to the standard of righteousness will gradually ensue within the believer's life over time. The degree of this to which each will be inclined, will be differential over time according to His will. The goal of redemption is deliverance from all sin, but this will happen to each believer in a varient degree over the course of their lives. Some may experience much, some little, and some hardly anything at all, like the theif on the cross. But, the Spirit of holiness dwells within each one, and will work his work of sanctification to the degree that the Father prescribes for Him to work it in this life.

 

[BG]

I wonder why people would come to the Puritan board and argue against the beliefs of the Puritans, Reformers and the Confessions?

 

[DonP]

I wonder why people would come to the Puritan board and argue against the beliefs of the Puritans, Reformers and the Confessions?

Maybe in hopes others will effectively refute them and they will learn and be convinced of the truth

I am that way. I believe what I believe until I can find someone who can argue the point to convince me of another way then I meekly shift. Praying that God will guide me and protect me through it all.
But I often learn most through dialogue. I guess I need it laid out for me and strong arguments to prove it.
I do tend to lean on my understanding and perhaps to a fault, but I do not have much intuition and blind faith as many do. Hopefully this is how God intends to work through me.