Posting on the Sabbath and the 4th commandment

Is posting on Christian Message boards a break in the 4th commandment?

  • Yes it is a break

    Votes: 5 8.3%

  • No, it is not a break

    Votes: 55 91.7%
  • Total voters
    60
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Scott Bushey

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
I am sure everyone would agree that posting on secular boards boards on the sabbath are a break of the 4th commandment. Are Christian Message Boards breaking the Sabbath by allowing members to post on the Sabbath as well?

Thoughts?

Should the PB shut down for the day?

Should we just shut down the threads that are general?
 
I think the idle words and thoughts portion of the confession would apply. Forums such as entertainment, sports, etc could be locked down.
 
I guess I would agree 'talking' is not a break per se; as mentioned by Chris, idle talking could be.

Just thinkin through this
 
What is idle talk? 95% of our after church chit chat with our fellow Christians would be condemned under the normal use of the word "idle". Beyond those things which are explicitly condemned on the Sabbath in scripture I am very wary of prohibiting certain activities on a Sunday. By all means exhort everyone to worship God to the utmost on that day - if we really did this, other things would fade away of their own accord - but trying to force people to concentrate on the things of God by binding their conciousnesses on such minor things as idle talk seem counterproductive.
 
The same guys who wrote:
Of Christian Liberty, and Liberty of Conscience

I. The liberty which Christ has purchased for believers under the Gospel consists in their freedom from the guilt of sin, and condemning wrath of God, the curse of the moral law;[1] and, in their being delivered from this present evil world, bondage to Satan, and dominion of sin;[2] from the evil of afflictions, the sting of death, the victory of the grace, and everlasting damnation;[3] as also, in their free access to God,[4] and their yielding obedience unto Him, not out of slavish fear, but a child-like love and willing mind.[5] All which were common also to believers under the law.[6] But, under the New Testament, the liberty of Christians is further enlarged, in their freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law, to which the Jewish Church was subjected;[7] and in greater boldness of access to the throne of grace,[8] and in fuller communications of the free Spirit of God, than believers under the law did ordinarily partake of.[9]
II. God alone is Lord of the conscience,[10] and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in any thing, contrary to His Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship.[11] So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience:[12] and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.[13]
III. They who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, do practice any sin, or cherish any lust, do thereby destroy the end of Christian liberty, which is, that being delivered out of the hands of our enemies, we might serve the Lord without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our life.[14]
IV. And because the powers which God has ordained, and the liberty which Christ has purchased are not intended by God to destroy, but mutually to uphold and preserve one another, they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God.[15] And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity (whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation), or to the power of godliness; or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ has established in the Church, they may lawfully be called to account,[16] and proceeded against, by the censures of the Church. and by the power of the civil magistrate.[17]
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Also wrote:

VIII. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations,[1] but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[2]

[1] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
EXO 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
ISA 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.
NEH 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. 16 There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? 18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. 19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. 22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
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So yes we are not to bind men unduly but I don't think the divines or Scott is coming up with this on our own.

To me if we take the Sabbath and follow Isa. 58:13 then that is training for the other six days of the week. I know I need to work on the following verses:

Do You Speak Carelessly?
"He who guards his mouth keeps his life, but he who opens wide his lips shall have destruction" (Proverbs 13:3).
"The heart of the righteous studies how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things" (Proverbs 15:28).
"Whosoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps his soul from troubles" (Proverbs 21:23).
"See a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him" (Proverbs 29:20).
"If any man thinks himself to be religious and does not bridle his tongue, he deceives himself and this man's religion is vain" (James 1:26).
"He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil and his lips that they speak no guile" (1 Peter 3:10).

Our speech on this board, at home, at work, and yes after the service could use some attention.

Other verses to meditate on :
http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pe071.htm
 
These are good reminders. Ironically, I'm home this AM because the city fathers have allowed a huge Marathron run (for the last 15 or more years I think) that has gotten so large they simply officially close down all the streets in and out of our section of town for the morning. At least it is over by 1pm and I can make PM church. None of us is perfect in upholding the fourth commandment any more than the other nine. But we can be a help rather than a hinderance/stumbling block. I would vote for closing the secular discussions down for the day on PB simply from the standpoint of being a help to avoid the temptation of not being as careful as we ought in our discussions on the Lord's day. Those who don't hold to a Puritan view of the Lord's Day can go post to their hearts' content on other boards; but PB being rather officially tied to Sabbatarian standards I would think closing these forums down for the day would be a help toward upholding those standards and not stumbling others. :2cents:
crhoades said:
The same guys who wrote:


Also wrote:

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So yes we are not to bind men unduly but I don't think the divines or Scott is coming up with this on our own.

To me if we take the Sabbath and follow Isa. 58:13 then that is training for the other six days of the week. I know I need to work on the following verses:

Do You Speak Carelessly?
"He who guards his mouth keeps his life, but he who opens wide his lips shall have destruction" (Proverbs 13:3).
"The heart of the righteous studies how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things" (Proverbs 15:28).
"Whosoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps his soul from troubles" (Proverbs 21:23).
"See a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him" (Proverbs 29:20).
"If any man thinks himself to be religious and does not bridle his tongue, he deceives himself and this man's religion is vain" (James 1:26).
"He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil and his lips that they speak no guile" (1 Peter 3:10).

Our speech on this board, at home, at work, and yes after the service could use some attention.

Other verses to meditate on :
http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pe071.htm
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The end of Isaiah chapter 58 is very poignant. Like Chris, I don't think entertainment and sports are proper subject matter for discussion on the Sabbath. It'd be a good policy not go on those forums on God's Holy Day or even for the admins to lock it but I have trouble not "speaking my own words" elsewhere anyway, even in church! Speaking and thinking only of religious things is a difficult command to observe and I think it might be like putting new wine into old bottles to insist upon some people to do this.
 
Scott Bushey said:
I am sure everyone would agree that posting on secular boards boards on the sabbath are a break of the 4th commandment. Are Christian Message Boards breaking the Sabbath by allowing members to post on the Sabbath as well?

Thoughts?

Should the PB shut down for the day?

Should we just shut down the threads that are general?
Click to expand...

If you shut down any part of PB on Sundays, I'll come to Florida and dye your hair purple!

Just keep the whole thing open, and let our Christian brothers and sisters decide for themselves, before the Lord, what is appropriate or inappropriate on the Lord's Day. What some others have posted about closing down portions (or all) of the PB being tantamount to binding the consciences of others seems apropo.

Hmmm. I wonder what you would look like with purple hair?:D
 
If we are talking about conscience and PB, the most important consciences are the owners of PB. That said, there is nothing wrong with shutting down some sections. As I said, those who care to discuss sports or something inappropriate to the Lord's day, can jolly well do it somewhere else than on a discussion board called Puritan. Oh the irony.

bookslover said:
If you shut down any part of PB on Sundays, I'll come to Florida and dye your hair purple!

Just keep the whole thing open, and let our Christian brothers and sisters decide for themselves, before the Lord, what is appropriate or inappropriate on the Lord's Day. What some others have posted about closing down portions (or all) of the PB being tantamount to binding the consciences of others seems apropo.

Hmmm. I wonder what you would look like with purple hair?:D
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Besides, it would have to be shut down by each person's declared time zone. Is that even possible?
 
First just a bit of prolegomena...

We too often look at the Sabbath/Lord's Day (as well as the rest of the law) as being a negative or keeping from things rather than a positive or imploring to something better. God has given us 6 days to do all things of our own devising as long as they are not sinful. He has asked us to set aside one day to focus on Him specifically. We are to be enjoined in edifying worship, conversation, works of mercy and necessity all the day long. What a wonderful yoke and burden - to speak of Christ and his saving benefits to all of us! Why would we want to talk politics or sports or entertainment instead of building one another up? I am ashamed at my own weakness and sinful flesh that I can't spend more time (or even want to) in the things of the Lord rather than my own desires on His day. How can we go from worshipping in the presence of our Maker and Savior one minute and have a benediction and begin talking about football or fill in the blank the next. Personally I think a large part of the lukewarmness or downrigt coldness of the church today is a failure to love God and want to spend time fellowshipping with him and other believers on Sunday. We treat it like any other day. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't desire the right things enough.

As far as closing down particular forums and binding of consciences...a few thoughts.

Again, it isn't binding people's consciences to say that people should keep the law of God.

The reasoning is as follows: 1. The Sabbath is still binding. 2. It calls for cessation of work and seeking after self and consecrating time to the Lord. 3. We are called to observe the Sabbath as well as those sojourners who are in our gates. 4. The owners of this board hold to the WCF and catechisms and the board is under denominational oversight of people who also subscribe- the rest of us are sojourners in their gates. 5. In order to uphold the confession and ultimately the law of God then they should do their best to a. encourage fellowship and edifying conversation on the Lord's Day and b. discourage and prohibit idle talk.

If a person's conscience is felt to be bound then it would be encumbant (after painting Scott's hair purple ;) ) to dig into Scripture and wrestle with Sabbath issues. With the WCF, I understand that the Sabbath/Lord's Day is binding on Christians today and it requires specifically certain things. We dare not require less or more than the law of God requires. The key is to excercise wisdom and charity in these matters and discussions in order to build up and not tear down.:2cents:
 
I was just thinking about this yesterday, and wondering when it would occur to someone that posting on the Sabbath might be something to think about. Well, great minds...;)

Anyway, if I have a vote, I vote against closing PB on Sunday, however, it would be nice to find more discussion on theology and the Scripture on this day. I crave to talk about this stuff on Sunday, not because I'm so sanctified, but because tomorrow I have to go work for the godless State, where I feel God is definitely unwelcome, and I love Sunday, because I can talk with people about God all day. It really is a rest for some of us! I regard PB as fellowship, as long as the topics are edifying. Being a girl, maybe I should't weigh in on whether football is edifying...;)
 
I had mentioned this in a hidden forum awhile back when I was personally convicted by a realization of my own hypocrisy in attempting to discuss cigars and post-counts here on a Lord's Day. EDIT: And I just now realized I did a similar thing today; all the more illustrative of my shortcomings and our tendency to wander from the truth, and thus the potential benefit of doing something to specifically remind people of, in this case, the issue of the Lord's Day as it relates to our online discussion - since if we were meditating on the Gospel throughout the entire Lord's Day (as it was given us to do), we would not be prone to forget God's Law.

Pending a working-out of details like time zone issues, there are basically four options:

1) Close all or some "general" forums on the Lord's Day
2) Simply add a reminder, encouragement and request to the Board Rules (and possibly as a banner or something on the front page during Sundays) to keep the function and purpose of the Lord's Day in mind when choosing which topics to discuss
3) Change nothing
4) Other (please specify)

Personally, I am not in favor of #3, since the issue really is a simple one at heart - if I wouldn't watch a football game on the Lord's Day, I wouldn't discuss it on that day, either. Same thing for any applicable replacement in that sentence for "watch a football game." And from there it is simply a matter of us always wanting to minimize any chances of the board ever serving as an encouragement for idleness or sin, in any way possible.
 
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beej6 said:
(Yes, we'll have to wait for the Truly Reformed to vote tomorrow, won't we? :D )

For what it's worth, there's one denomination website I know that is "closed" on Sundays:
http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/index.htm
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I remember reading on a Protestant Reformed church website that they didn't accept orders for books submitted on the Lord's Day. Which seemed on one hand right that they didn't engage in commerce on that day, on the other hand the books were all of a religious nature, so the topic could not break the Sabbath. Made me think whether a bookstall open after church (or any money changing hands after church) should be discontinued.
 
SRoper said:
Besides, it would have to be shut down by each person's declared time zone. Is that even possible?
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it be logical about it, the board would have to shut down as soon as anyone on the earth entered into Sunday and only open up when the last time zone left Sunday. Otherwise you would be encouraging someone else to "work" on the Sabbath, faciliating it, akin to going to a fast food place. so the board would have to shut down 48 hours per week. That is the total number of hours that it is the Sabbath somewhere on earth. Being as you don't know how the packets travel anyhow, you might be making someone work on their Sabbath by being online as well, even if it is not your Sabbath or the Sabbath where the board itself is located. This was the argument used in the early 19thC in the Sunday Post Office closing campaign.
 
The Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland website goes down on the Sabbath per local time in Scotland. True, they don't have a message board, but it does mean I could get on their site any time except from 7 p.m Saturday to 7 p.m. Sunday, or whatever.

Since Dr. McMahon is in FL, the administrators could make the decision, whatever it is, based on Eastern Time. While it wouldn't be "fair" to those outside the continental US, it would cover the majority of people who post here.

:2cents:
 
Trevor,

One important issue that is inevitable to deal with in formulating any position at all is consistency - and where to draw the line. If discussing a Cardinals game or a piano recital for awhile is perfectly within bounds, why would you not watch a football game or a recital? After all, many people would also perceive it as "rude" for a close friend or relative to not attend a very crucial game of their's or an important recital they've been waiting to do for a long time. Would you attend one of those events to keep from coming off as rude? If not, where is the principled difference? There is ultimately just as much direct and exclusive mental focus being devoted to something when one is discussing it as there is when one is watching it.
 
Isaiah 58:13 13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;

Again, positively we are to call the Sabbath a delight. But by looking at something positively and engaging in positive duties/delights it also carries another side of the coin of refraining from other things. By definition we are not to work.

The kicker on the whole thing is the above verse. That is what God desired at one time. The onus is to show by Scripture and with argument by good and necessary deduction that it is no longer the case. Only once the normative command/general equity of Scripture has been determined to we begin trying to see how we apply it in today's given situation of boards and individual forums.

As far as the "it's too difficult so it's not binding" argument goes. (I confess this may be a strawman or an uncharitable read on my part of some posts but treat it as a standalone argument) The law of God demands perfection. We are called not to commit adultery. That is also defined as not to even look lustfully at another woman. I'm happily married and will confess that it is hard in today's culture with TV, newsstands, even walking around in public not to have your eyes drawn away. Does that mean that the command is nullified because I can't keep it? No. It means that I must war against my flesh all the more and be all the more rejoiceful that Christ kept the law perfectly on my behalf. Jesus kept the Sabbath perfectly and did the Father's business. For some reason, the Sabbath/Lord's Day is the 1 command in the 10 that we do our best to skirt out of and my personal opinion on why it is, is because it is probably the first that can be noticed outwardly. We do a great job of concealing other sins and harboring them in our heart and away from other people. The 4th command when broken most times is pretty noticeable.

I would encourage anyone who thinks it a burden to keep the whole day to begin studying the matter scripturally and through various puritan/reformed works before arguing against it. This is one of those areas where I've had to repent and change my mind after studying it. I'm still struggling to figure out and live out the 4th commandment. I value your encouragement and prayer and you'll have mine as well.
 
Excellent thoughts, Chris.

(BTW, I think Scott was talking about the poll results, and the apparent consensus that it is not a break of the commandment to post on Christian message boards in general on the Lord's Day, given that one does not post on unwarranted topics.)
 
Me Died Blue said:
Excellent thoughts, Chris.

(BTW, I think Scott was talking about the poll results, and the apparent consensus that it is not a break of the commandment to post on Christian message boards in general on the Lord's Day, given that one does not post on unwarranted topics.)
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I would also add not only not posting on unwarranted topics but even taking heed what is posted on warranted topics. Again we should be doing this anyway but I think we should go out of our way to be edifying on the Lord's day. That will be harder to moderate than just making some forums read only or locked down. It is a matter of the heart.
 
The straight up way the question is posed, I can't see anything wrong with utilizing the technology in itslef to talk to brothers and sisters in the lord on the sabbath. Perhaps it is a hindrance to the moderators. If so, I am all for giving them a day of rest and shutting down the boards. I usually don't have internet access on Sunday anyway, so it's not really an issue for me.

I think the best option would be as Chris said, post a reminder on the Sabbath, restrict certain forums if necessary, and in general have different guidelines for Sabbath discussion in accordance with the convictions of the board owners (as to what is permissable). But I don't see how in and of itself, posting on an internet forum is breaking the Sabbath.
 
bradofshaw said:
The straight up way the question is posed, I can't see anything wrong with utilizing the technology in itslef to talk to brothers and sisters in the lord on the sabbath. Perhaps it is a hindrance to the moderators. If so, I am all for giving them a day of rest and shutting down the boards. I usually don't have internet access on Sunday anyway, so it's not really an issue for me.

I think the best option would be as Chris said, post a reminder on the Sabbath, restrict certain forums if necessary, and in general have different guidelines for Sabbath discussion in accordance with the convictions of the board owners (as to what is permissable). But I don't see how in and of itself, posting on an internet forum is breaking the Sabbath.
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This pretty much sums it up in my opinion.:up:
 
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