Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Will Christ cease to be the husband of His bride in heaven?
A question about Sabbath
- Thread starter Joseph Scibbe
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Will Christ cease to be the husband of His bride in heaven?
If you want to discuss the nuances of what the Puritans meant by the word 'recreation' then go ahead. In fact, I think that gets to the heart of the matter of the OP.
Its rigidity is dependent on your view of what takes our focus away from God.
Is this any different on the Sabbath? Shouldn't everything we do on every day of the week be to the glory of God? If you cannot watch football to the glory of God, then it should be avoided on every day of the week.
You seem to have convinced yourself that watching football on Sunday is OK even though it hinders you from glorifying God. But the Bible says all things that hinder you from glorifying God are to be avoided.
carlgobelman
Puritan Board Freshman
Friend, I think this is an unwarranted leap. Where did I give even the slightest impression that I "have convinced [my]self that watching football on Sunday is OK even though it hinders you from glorifying God?" Are you privy to my inner dialogue?
Here is part of my original response to this thread:
I have never skipped going to church to watch a football game, and this was true even before I had the DVR. If (when) I watch football on Sunday, it's always worked around church activities on Sunday. Now if you want to critique my attitude when I watch football (particularly Bears games) that's a different point entirely; and I stand rebuked!
However, your comment is completely out of line and unsupported given what I have revealed on this board and in this thread.
Prufrock
Arbitrary Moderation
Carl, this is an important question, and is necessary for understanding the Reformed position on the Sabbath. There is a difference between honoring God by doing "God-honoring things" (e.g., living righteously, doing good deeds, exemplifying familial relationships, etc.) and honoring God with specific, stated acts of worship.
The operative word is "quality." What constitutes "quality" time with family on a day set aside from common to a holy use? I believe Isaiah 58:13 provides the answer to that question.
bouletheou
Puritan Board Freshman
KMK,
I think you're missing a key concept that Westminster Sabbatarians insist on. The nature of the day is such that things which are quite acceptable on other days are not acceptable on that day. We draw that from Isaiah 58. We're allowed to think our own thoughts, speak our own words and "go our own way" (i.e. non-sinful thoughts, words, and ways) on other days, but the Sabbath is special. God has hallowed it. He's made it different. He's made it for Himself.
I think you're missing a key concept that Westminster Sabbatarians insist on. The nature of the day is such that things which are quite acceptable on other days are not acceptable on that day. We draw that from Isaiah 58. We're allowed to think our own thoughts, speak our own words and "go our own way" (i.e. non-sinful thoughts, words, and ways) on other days, but the Sabbath is special. God has hallowed it. He's made it different. He's made it for Himself.
You said...
I assumed you were including watching NFL football as one of the things that takes 'even one iota' of your focus away from God. If it is not, could you give us an example of what is.
Amen, brother. I am not arguing that watching football on the Sabbath is sin. I am arguing that anything that cannot be done to the glory of God should be avoided, regardless of the day.
bouletheou
Puritan Board Freshman
KMK,
I actually would argue that watching football on the Sabbath is a sin (as is reading the Sunday paper, or going out to lunch after church) I think keeping the Sabbath in its purity is a lot like Christ's command not to look on any woman lustfully. It shows how lofty is God's standard and how painfully far we fall from it.
However I would agree that anything that cannot be done to the glory of God ought not be done at all.
Blessings,
I actually would argue that watching football on the Sabbath is a sin (as is reading the Sunday paper, or going out to lunch after church) I think keeping the Sabbath in its purity is a lot like Christ's command not to look on any woman lustfully. It shows how lofty is God's standard and how painfully far we fall from it.
However I would agree that anything that cannot be done to the glory of God ought not be done at all.
Blessings,
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't know if the Puritans would have viewed conjugal relations as a mere unnecessary "recreation" or a recreation at all? They may well have viewed it as more important than a game of frisbee or swingball, and therefore (at least sometimes) necessary.
Swingball, TV, video games, frisbee, NFL, radio, Sunday newspapers, shopping for clothes and electrical goods, visiting restaurants, etc, etc, are never necessities.
Having said that if proper preparation has not been made for the Sabbath, it may be necessary to buy one or two things sometimes e.g. drugs, toilet roll, milk, tea.
And when on holiday it may be necessary to use a restaurant. It may also be necessary to use public transport to get to church; that was the issue that John Murray left my old denomination, the FPCoS, over.
Re sexual intimacy, remember that the Bible calls it "becoming one flesh", "knowledge" , and the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians says that husbands and wives if they agree to desist for a time for spiritual reasons (maybe as an adjunct to fasting and prayer?) should not put themselves into temptation by desisting for too long.
Re the earlier point about Jonathan Edwards not laughing on the Sabbath, he may have been tretating the Sabbath as a day of mourning and fasting and solemnity like the Old Testament Day of Atonement, which is the only day on which such fasting was mandated in the Bible.
If Edwards was prescribing for everyone that they should never laugh on the Sabbath, that would be a clear addition to the law.
Jesus said,
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt 11:28-30, ESV)
The Apostle John said,
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome".(I John 5:3, ESV)
There is no doubt that the Sabbath is a gracious blessing and gift of God, as are the other Commandments, but in a special sense.
Faith in Christ is likened to resting in Him in the rest that He already enjoys in its fulness from His earthly work, but one day a week we are commanded and invited to enter and enjoy that rest in a special way, just as Adam and Eve did regarding God's work of creation.
We haven't yet entered the new eschatalogical order in its fulness (we're in the "already, not yet"), which is typified by the perfectly-numbered and specially-revealed Seven Day Week and the Sabbath, so we need the Sabbath Day until the Eschaton. See Hebrews 3 and 4. Each passing Sabbath is a stepping-stone to Glory.
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carlgobelman
Puritan Board Freshman
I wasn't specifically referring to watching football or even arguing for it. I think if you read the entirety of the post from which you extracted that quote, you will see that I specifically mentioned that I was being intentionally hyperbolic for the sake of argument.
So, again for the sake of argument, if I on the Sabbath am taking a walk with my wife and we talk about my daughter's school choir concert on Wednesday, then according to your view (or more precisely, the Puritan/Westminsterian view) of the Sabbath, I am guilty of breaking the Sabbath and as such I ought to confess and repent at the end of the day.
Since you presumably adhere to said view, do you confess and repent of your failure to devote every single thought, word and deed to the glory of God on the Sabbath at the end of the day? Are you specific in naming every single instance where your thoughts wandered from the majesty of God on Sunday? I just want to be clear that if people are preposing this view, are they being consistent?
Speaking personally as one who is new to the Reformed faith, I will be the first to admit that I have much to learn (and un-learn) regarding the Sabbath and its observance. Quite frankly, most of what is being said here I wasn't taught. As I look to my own practices, I see much that I should consider changing. With that said, the view your'e espousing, friend, still seems too rigid to me. I think it would be even MORE distracting for me to make sure that every thought, word and deed was focused on the glory and majesty of God. In other words, I would be so focused on focusing my thoughts that I would fail to focus on God Himself (missing the forest for the trees).
Maybe it's legend, but I recall that before Luther converted, he was so consumed with the law of God that he missed the grace of God. He would literally spend hours each day in the confessional confessing every conceivable sin, and would agonize until the next day if he had left one out. I even remember that scene in the movie "Luther" in which his mentor scolded him for not having anything interesting to confess. I could be verrrrry wrong (am I'm sure some helpful PB member will point that out), but I don't think God intended us to be "Little Luthers." By that I mean so consumed with following the revealed will of God that we lose focus on God. I am by no means advocating licentiousness or antinomianism, but methinks we go too far.
But, hey, maybe you're much better at it than I...
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
You're right- it can be a challenge to focus one's thoughts on the Lord. We can only do so imperfectly- but, by God's grace we can try.
Few things reveal our sin than our resentment toward God at having to give "our" time (and "our" thoughts) over toward God for a whole day.
Practically, one of the ways to do this is by what our Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to teach-
prepare in advance for the sabbath.
Things like getting ordinary errands and distractions out of the way the night before in preparation and limiting, to the extent you can, interferences on the day itself.
One other thing that is practically helpful,
Try to get a good night's rest the night before, and begin the day, early in the quiet time of morning, with reading and meditating on God's Word. Desperately pray for grace to keep His Fourth Commandment and to experience the blessing that comes from obedience.
Again, you seem to imply that you believe taking a walk with your wife takes 'even one iota' of your focus away from God and therefore the Puritans wouldn't approve. If you think taking a walk with your wife, or talking about your daughter are things that take your focus away from God, then I think you are too rigid with yourself. It is hard to think of activities more glorifying to God than exercising the body God gave you while communing with the wife God gave you surrounded by the creation God gave you.
As to the specifics of whether said activities give glory to God on the Sabbath, I will leave you to your own conscience and the counsel of your elders. (Which, BTW, I believe is more valuable to you than anything said by anonymous people on an internet discussion board.)
Whether or not I adhere to the view of the Puritans is not relevant. If my views are different than the Puritans it would not be appropriate for me to advocate those differences here.
As for repentance, yes I have much of which to repent. Including, a couple of Sundays ago, when, in a moment of weakness, I checked on the progress of an Angels playoff game, found out the Angels were getting crushed and it put me in a sour mood for the rest of the day.
reformedminister
Puritan Board Sophomore
I answered wrong on the poll. I guess I lean more towards the Continental view. I thought the Continental view did not regard any specific day to be kept holy unto the Lord. Like Calvin, I enjoy lawn bowling, especially with my daughter on nice days in the backyard. I believe that one day should be kept holy unto the Lord as the Christian Sabbath, and that on the Lord's Day because it is the Scriptural day for New Testament public worship. While I refrain from work, except when necessary (which is extremely rare) and attend our morning and evening services (I preach at our early service) I enjoy having fun with my family on the Lord's Day. This sometimes means lawn bowling, horseshoes, or some other family activity. Who can tell me in the Bible where it says that family fun is to be excluded on the Lord's day? Isaiah 58 does is not explicit enough.
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
Just a note. This whole notion of John Calvin bowling on the Lord's day is a pretty weak argument. What does that have to do with observing The Lord's Day? If John Calvin bowled on The Lord's Day, how does that some how lead to the conclusion that we shouldn't observe The Lord's Day? The Word of God says we must rest on this day and not labor. Whether John Calvin did or did not does not in anyway persuade us from not observing.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Perhaps a more helpful approach that considering what NOT to do on the Sabbath, is what to do. Go to church. Morning and night.
i.e. It's a given the Lord's day is not bowling night.
I do agree the issue of raising this Calvin bowling story is immaterial. At most it proves Calvin a hypocrite, which I don't think is the intent of those who raise it.
I do agree the issue of raising this Calvin bowling story is immaterial. At most it proves Calvin a hypocrite, which I don't think is the intent of those who raise it.
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Kaalvenist
Puritan Board Sophomore
I just recently finished teaching a few lessons about the Sabbath for the adult Sabbath School class at our church. One of the things we concluded was that, if we're really doing what we ought to on the Sabbath (secret, family, and public worship, godly fellowship and conversation, works of necessity and mercy), there's not really much time to engage in common labors or recreations. Even though I would, and did, argue that Isaiah 58:13 specifically inveighs against recreations on the Sabbath, it becomes a moot point if we actually focus on keeping the day holy to God in worshipping and serving Him the whole day (not just an hour or two at church), instead of focusing on what not to do.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
It's been helpful in understanding this and the Westminster Standards summary of this to see it in that light...
The reason we ordinarily prepare in advance, and abstain from work and play is so that we can prioritize worship the whole day. This is not true of the other six days of the week because on them we are commanded to prioritize work, which is the other side of the fourth commandment.
It's interesting that some who argue against the first part of the fourth commandment, do not address the second part of it. They fit together, and pattern our lives based on God's example in creation.
Kaalvenist
Puritan Board Sophomore
Exactly. There are many errors into which people run about this day:
1. denying its perpetual moral obligation;
2. denying its change from the seventh to the first day of the week under the New Testament;
3. denying it extends to the entire day;
4. denying the prohibition of both labor and recreation, etc.
Most of these errors would be corrected if people simply recognized the scriptural principle that worship and rest go hand in hand. This can be seen especially throughout passages like Exodus 5 and Leviticus 23. If it is a day of worship to God, it must necessarily be a day of rest from ordinary activity, in order to be free to worship.
This means that the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, wherein New Testament believers worshipped, is the abiding Sabbath of rest; it is the Lord's DAY, not the Lord's hour, in which we owe Him not just public worship, but all of the devotions I already mentioned; the purpose of the prohibition of labor is to free us for His worship, and therefore anything else which hinders us from that worship is likewise forbidden.
1. denying its perpetual moral obligation;
2. denying its change from the seventh to the first day of the week under the New Testament;
3. denying it extends to the entire day;
4. denying the prohibition of both labor and recreation, etc.
Most of these errors would be corrected if people simply recognized the scriptural principle that worship and rest go hand in hand. This can be seen especially throughout passages like Exodus 5 and Leviticus 23. If it is a day of worship to God, it must necessarily be a day of rest from ordinary activity, in order to be free to worship.
This means that the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, wherein New Testament believers worshipped, is the abiding Sabbath of rest; it is the Lord's DAY, not the Lord's hour, in which we owe Him not just public worship, but all of the devotions I already mentioned; the purpose of the prohibition of labor is to free us for His worship, and therefore anything else which hinders us from that worship is likewise forbidden.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Also, few things so comprehensively reveal our sin as our resentment that God has a regular, focused, prioritized claim on our time.
We worship created things (e.g. money) and we won't rest
We get angry and we don't rest
We have less time to study God through His Word so we are more likely to take His Name in vane
We are more likely to become angry without control and we don't rest
Our old nature greatly resents a regular check on our idolatrous, self seeking ways and so we rationalize the only "rest" we have is spiritual, or our favorite form of recreation or entertainment.
It becomes more clear how keeping the fourth commandment helps us keep all the other commandments better, and experience a foretaste of the heavenly sabbath rest that is to come.
God help us to see that!
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
May I ask a simple question?
Those of you advocating the strictest adherence to sabbath "rest" are saying you avoid everything and anything that you cannot do "to the glory of God"? On the surface that sounds like something one would obviously do. However, that being said, are there not many times we do not do things to God's glory simply due to lack of focus/perspective? Does that get easier on Sunday?
I would agree with this if Churches we're an all day and night affair. Instead most churches, even reformed, last 60-90 minutes and members get annoyed if the time ever extends over the schedule.
I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.
Those of you advocating the strictest adherence to sabbath "rest" are saying you avoid everything and anything that you cannot do "to the glory of God"? On the surface that sounds like something one would obviously do. However, that being said, are there not many times we do not do things to God's glory simply due to lack of focus/perspective? Does that get easier on Sunday?
I would agree with this if Churches we're an all day and night affair. Instead most churches, even reformed, last 60-90 minutes and members get annoyed if the time ever extends over the schedule.
I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
It might be helpful to understand this in terms of prioritizing the entire day on worship- personal, family and corporate and works of mercy and necessity.
So, while one may only be in church one or two hours on the Lord's Day (e.g. Corporate Worship, and Sunday School), one might also have Bible reading at home and also meet with a prayer group sometime that day.
One of the difficult parts of the "ceasing" is to try, by God's grace to direct our thoughts, minds, as well as our actions toward God. That means trying to focus on prayer, meditating on God's Word, even singing during "quiet times" during the day.
There is no exact set pattern, each person's circumstances will be somewhat different, but here is a possible way one could spend the Lord's Day, at least as I understand it, in consonance with the doctrine of Scripture:
7a Personal quiet Bible reading/prayer
9a Bible Class
11a Corporate Worship
1230n Lunch at home, invite a new, needy person for hospitality
2p Nap or quiet time
4p Family Bible reading
6p Small group/evening worship/Bible class
8p Sing/music (psalms, hymns, spiritual songs)
9p Bedtime prayer
"Religious conversation" and reading/studying Christian books can also help in directing our thoughts, words and actions towards the "ceasing" from work and play and toward worship.
Also, understand this,
no other day, ordinarily, is set up like this.
There is no other common time for Christians to worship corporately at this level of priority. While we might have some elements of this on any other day of the week, we are commanded to prioritize our work on the other days. That's what the fourth commandment/sabbath/Lord's Day is about.
That appeals to me as well, but it would put an impossible burden upon the elders week in and week out. So much preparation goes into just a 90 minute service that I go home and literally collapse. After a few hours of rest my wife and I can then prepare for evening activities. (Maybe I am just old)
Osage Bluestem
Puritan Board Junior
I vote for the continental view because recreation is rest. Recreation lowers stress and creates bonding time for people. It is fun. I think God likes it.
While I am still struggling with this issue, I have been observing the Lord's Day as Sabbath for the past few months while I am still researching it, and I have been very blessed in doing so. Setting aside the Lord's Day for public worship, singing psalms and hymns at my apartment, studying the Bible, catechisms, etc., reading theology, reading The Pilgrim's Progress, and not shopping or eating out or doing my homework has been a great blessing to me. Even if I end up concluding that the Lord's Day is not the equivalent of the OC Sabbath, I don't think I will give the practice up.
-----Added 11/17/2009 at 06:21:36 EST-----
For those new to Sabbatarian arguments, I posted a question about this a while back and received some truly excellent responses. Please take the time to read them:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/what-convinced-you-sabbath-53691/
-----Added 11/17/2009 at 06:21:36 EST-----
For those new to Sabbatarian arguments, I posted a question about this a while back and received some truly excellent responses. Please take the time to read them:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/what-convinced-you-sabbath-53691/
darrellmaurina
Puritan Board Freshman
One proof of the depth of the rebelliousness of the human heart is that when God tells us to take a day off, many refuse.
I know of a few churches where (at least some days) there was Sunday school at, say 9, morning worship at 10:30, fellowship lunch, then an afternoon service at 1:30 (usually in lieu of an evening service).
I've only belonged to two confessional Presbyterian churches, but both follow(ed) a similar schedule: Sunday school and worship (or vice versa) around 10, fellowship lunch, generally folks hung around until 2-3PM. Then either evening worship or study class.
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