"Conversion" to Reformed?

[steadfast7]

Does one need special grace to move from an Arminian to a Reformed worldview? or, is it merely an intellectual jump that any Christian can make if they simply put in the effort?

 

[Scott1]

No, just biblical understanding.

The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.

It is incredibly powerful when one gets the picture that salvation is not man-centered (Arminianism), but rather is God-centered (Calvinism). Freeing when one realizes that man is totally, completely, 100% dependent on God for salvation.

The more one knows, the more one is accountable for it.

That's why if someone is in an Arminian influenced communion, they find way to a communion that substantially holds the biblical doctrine. It is not acceptable to confess what is unbiblical.

 

[steadfast7]

so would you view it as a matter of hermeneutics when learned and godly men simply do not see Scripture the same way as Calvinists?

---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

Amen to your post, btw, Scott..

 

[CharlieJ]

Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.

 

[Scott1]

Not really hermeneutics.

The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.

Implicitly, that means it is not inconsistent, duplicitous but rather is internally consistent, and not a matter of private interpretation.

That leads to Scripture interpreting Scripture, not by the imagined constructs of men (e.g. dispensationalism, Arminianism).

 

[steadfast7]

Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.

by "special" I mean in distinction to common sense and reason, but rather a sovereign working of the Spirit. If illumination falls in this category (I'm not sure), then it would seem that a sovereign grace is needed for someone to have right (Reformed) understanding.

---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

Not really hermeneutics.

The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.

Implicitly, that means it is not inconsistent, duplicitous but rather is internally consistent, and not a matter of private interpretation.

That leads to Scripture interpreting Scripture, not by the imagined constructs of men (e.g. dispensationalism, Arminianism).

It's just that the Arminians (the learned ones) would say that they are following these principles of interpretation. If they are wrong and don't see it, then they are blind and require the help of spiritual illumination, it seems.

 

[Andres]

Anything good that we are, we are by the grace of God. I would say this includes being reformed or holding to any sound doctrine. For example, I would never think or say, "Man, I'm so glad I am intellectually superior to those Arminians so that I could become reformed" or "Whew, it's a good thing I have such a proper hermeneutic and solid understanding of the scriptures". No, instead we cry out to God, "thank you God for revealing these truths to me!"

Now if you're asking how we might bring an Arminian brother into the proper (reformed) understanding of scripture, then yes, I think hermeneutics is the place to start. But still, it's only going to be by the grace of God that their eyes are opened, although as others have said, I don't know that I'd label it a "special" grace.

 

[Skyler]

I don't think you can distinguish reason from the work of the Holy Spirit. Rationally, I would argue that Calvinism is the only consistent interpretation of Scripture, yet many brilliant and otherwise reasonable men are irrational on this point. There are other examples as well. Sin inhibits our reason and common sense; in that sense, every correct conclusion that we come to is only by the grace of God.

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

Sorry. I don't think you can "separate" reason, not "distinguish".

 

[jwithnell]

A Christian is a Christian because God has given him a new heart that shows a change in life and an affirmation of what is expressed in the creeds, even though all points may not be fully understood. The non-reformed believer and reformed believers are absolute equals in this regard.

I think many people experience a real energizing of their faith and a newer closeness to God when they come to understand the reformed worldview. By rightly thinking about God, we get to know and love Him all the more. By seeing His strength and our weakness, we become more aware of our total dependence upon Him and His lavish grace to us.

All is by grace: our conversion, our growth in Godliness, and a clearer understanding of the scripture; all is to His glory.

 

[Scott1]

Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
Not really hermeneutics.

The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.

Implicitly, that means it is not inconsistent, duplicitous but rather is internally consistent, and not a matter of private interpretation.

That leads to Scripture interpreting Scripture, not by the imagined constructs of men (e.g. dispensationalism, Arminianism).


steadfast7
It's just that the Arminians (the learned ones) would say that they are following these principles of interpretation. If they are wrong and don't see it, then they are blind and require the help of spiritual illumination, it seems.

What you'll find is that the "learned" ones have trouble with Scripture interpreting Scripture, because Arminianism depends on taking individual Scriptures out of the context of Scripture. This is usually done with respect to their immediate context and always done with respect to the whole of Scripture.

I can say this,

With Scripture interpreting Scripture, there is no way a man centered view of salvation can stand.

This is what cleared it up for me, it was a process.

The same God who was patient with me, I have faith will be patient with others.

That's why God has provided reading, studying, hearing the Word as an "ordinary means of grace," a basic part of the life of the believer.

With the Spirit's illuminating, a believer will get to understand deeper and deeper truths, including something of the doctrines of grace.

I have faith that will happen because God is not a respecter of persons.

If we don't have that faith, there is no way to really answer the original post.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

1Cor.4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

Folks in Corinth were boasting about their knowledge, who their preferred apostle was, all sorts of things. Paul cuts it all off, rebuking especially the "wisest" of them for taking pride in their achievements. The least little bit of insight (to say nothing of greater perceptions) into the knowledge of God is inaccessible outside of revelation. The only proper stance for those who would understand more is the same humble posture of a recipient.

What do you have that you did not receive? Plainly, nothing.

 

[Joseph Scibbe]

I don't think it is nearly an intellectual ascent but I would hesitate to say that Reformed theology is a step in sanctification as if being Reformed made me a better Christian than nonreformed folk. They already think we think that, lets not give them any ammo to prove it.

 

[raekwon]

I don't think it is nearly an intellectual ascent but I would hesitate to say that Reformed theology is a step in sanctification as if being Reformed made me a better Christian than nonreformed folk. They already think we think that, lets not give them any ammo to prove it.

I would say that a continual growth in the knowledge and understanding of God's Word is one of those "other saving graces" that we receive in sanctification. Now, that's not to say that coming to a Reformed understanding of things is the only way our knowledge and understanding of God's Word is sanctified, and it's not to say that other traditions don't have a greater understanding of the Word in some areas, but... I think "sanctification" does work here.

 

[steadfast7]

so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.

@Skyler, regarding whether reason and the work of the Spirit is distinguishable ... if it's not distinguish then should we attribute science, philosophy, or calculus as a direct product of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Skyler]

That would naturally depend upon the science or philosophy in question.

All truth stems from God; by nature, we twist the truth, "[coming] from the womb speaking lies." I tend to think that any perception of truth that we have is a result of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, preventing us from being as bad as we could be.

In this respect it's similar (if not identical) to the Holy Spirit's restraining influence in the area of moral issues.

In fact I question whether right reason is not a moral issue. But I digress.

 

[steadfast7]

In fact I question whether right reason is not a moral issue. But I digress.

I don't think it's a digression at all it makes sense, considering that Paul links reprobation with suppression of truth and darkened mind in Rom 1. Interesting question: is wrong theology essentially sinful?

 

[raekwon]

so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.

I'd be hesitant to use the word "faltering" there. How can one "falter" in not being given something that is essentially a gift?

 

[Skyler]

so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.

I'd be hesitant to use the word "faltering" there. How can one "falter" in not being given something that is essentially a gift?

Since we are obligated to meet God's standard of perfection and fail to do so, and since the fault is our own and not God's, I think "faltering" is an appropriate term.

 

[Scott1]

so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.

@Skyler, regarding whether reason and the work of the Spirit is distinguishable ... if it's not distinguish then should we attribute science, philosophy, or calculus as a direct product of the Holy Spirit?

Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."

God alone initiates redemption, through a process that begins with election (predestination). In a sense that is "special" but something He alone does for ALL the elect.

Redemption is a process that begins with election, and includes an inner call (by the Spirit) at the pre-determined time, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification (which occurs with our resurrected body when Christ returns as judge).

Growing in God's Word is part of the process of sanctification. That means coming to understand deeper truths in His Word, like the 'doctrines of grace.'

One of the best summaries that contrasts and defines both regeneration (which God alone does) and sanctification (which is where we come to understand things like the 'doctrines of grace') is by Mr. Packer:

Concise Theology
J.I. Packer
p. 170
(scripture references omitted for brevity)

"Regeneration was a momentary monergistic act of quickening the spiritually dead. As such, it was God's work alone.

Sanctification, however, is in one sense synergistic- it is an ongoing cooperative process in which regenerate persons, alive to God and freed from sin's dominion, are required to exert themselves in sustained obedience. God's method of sanctification is neither activism (self-reliant activity) nor apathy (God-reliant passivity), but God dependent effort. Knowing that without Christ's enabling, we can do nothing, morally speaking, as we should, and that he is ready to strengthen us for all that we have to do, we "stay put" (remain,abide) in Christ, asking for his help constantly- and we receive it.

 

[earl40]

What i find interesting is that all that passes is God's will which includes all Christians who are Arminian and all Christians who are reformed.Those who are Reformed will lay any crown at the feet of God knowing it was because of grace they were so. The Arminian In my most humble opinion will be grateful they were shown mercy while still holding on to "the dignity of the flesh" while they were alive here on earth. I do believe both groups received the same grace but one resisted and thus shall receive one less crown or reward at the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[steadfast7]

Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."

If we have nothing which we have not received, and all things come from the Father of lights, then correct understanding of Scripture would also come from God through the Spirit.

God alone initiates redemption, through a process that begins with election (predestination). In a sense that is "special" but something He alone does for ALL the elect.

Redemption is a process that begins with election, and includes an inner call (by the Spirit) at the pre-determined time, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification (which occurs with our resurrected body when Christ returns as judge).

Yes, this is done graciously for all Christians alike.

Growing in God's Word is part of the process of sanctification. That means coming to understand deeper truths in His Word, like the 'doctrines of grace.'

Thus, if Arminianism is incorrect doctrine, then God is not dispensing this illumination by His Holy Spirit.
So, either:
1) these matters have been left to pure reason to figure out, with some understanding it and some not
2) the Arminians have not been graced with ability to apprehend correct doctrine
3) the Reformed have been specially graced with the ability to apprehend correct doctrine
4) Arminians have resisted the illumination by the Spirit.

 

[MarieP]

Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.

If we remembered this, the world be a better place...

 

[Scott1]

Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."

If we have nothing which we have not received, and all things come from the Father of lights, then correct understanding of Scripture would also come from God through the Spirit.

Salvation is totally dependent on God. But understanding of His Word comes by our diligent applying our self toward it with the Spirit's assistance. This is part of our sanctification, which is in one sense, a cooperative effort. Again, Mr. Packer (above) describes sanctification well.

God alone initiates redemption, through a process that begins with election (predestination). In a sense that is "special" but something He alone does for ALL the elect.

Redemption is a process that begins with election, and includes an inner call (by the Spirit) at the pre-determined time, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification (which occurs with our resurrected body when Christ returns as judge).

Yes, this is done graciously for all Christians alike.

And they have nothing to do with their regeneration. Yet, they do, in one sense, have something to do with their sanctification.

Growing in God's Word is part of the process of sanctification. That means coming to understand deeper truths in His Word, like the 'doctrines of grace.'

Thus, if Arminianism is incorrect doctrine, It is. then God is not dispensing this illumination by His Holy Spirit.
Not necessarily. It may be a person is not diligently applying themselves to the "ordinary means of grace." Why else would God's Word tell us:

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

There are many ways we can do that- approaching Scripture with a personal agenda, for example. Not hearing the Word from someone appointed by God to carefully handle His Word. E.g. Based on all public representations, at least, we can say there is substantial evidence to suggest Mr. Osteen is not handling the Word of God carefully and that he does he have the exemplary life required by Scripture to be a teaching Elder.

Yet he teaches heavy Arminianism without the perfectionism of some strains of it and instead substitutes a "prosperity" gospel.

So, the influence one is getting under this individual's teaching is not correct. I can't assess his motives, only that his teaching is twisted, and that he is not qualified to be a teacher of God's people.

Someone seeking him out to disciple them, is not seeking God, because the Spirit would warn that person off, and their own study of Bible, which they are commanded to do, would show major error right away.


So, either:
1) these matters have been left to pure reason to figure out, with some understanding it and some not
2) the Arminians have not been graced with ability to apprehend correct doctrine
3) the Reformed have been specially graced with the ability to apprehend correct doctrine
4) Arminians have resisted the illumination by the Spirit.

Your logic is flawed because it is based on a premise that does not take into account the cooperative nature of sanctification, and underestimates the remnant of the fall in the creatures, and the faith that God will come to the aid of His people, who are genuinely seeking Him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This leads you to present an incomplete set of logical choices.

 

[Skyler]

Thus, if Arminianism is incorrect doctrine, then God is not dispensing this illumination by His Holy Spirit.
So, either:
1) these matters have been left to pure reason to figure out, with some understanding it and some not
2) the Arminians have not been graced with ability to apprehend correct doctrine
3) the Reformed have been specially graced with the ability to apprehend correct doctrine
4) Arminians have resisted the illumination by the Spirit.

It's worth pointing out that we, the Reformed, do not necessarily have a monopoly on correct doctrine. The Spirit illuminates different areas to different people. We have been graced with the understanding of correct doctrine in a particular area; they may have the same grace in a different area that we do not. Be very, very careful about assuming some kind of superiority, either inherent or gifted, over another group of Christians.

 

[steadfast7]

Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?

 

[Peairtach]

Arminianism is intellectual sin, as J.I.Packer says in his intro to Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ" (Banner of Truth edition).

Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?

You'd be better starting another thread.

We can be wrong - most obviously - by, ironically, being proud of being Calvinist. It's of God's grace that we see certain things more clearly. Therefore we shouldn't be proud.

Of course it can be exasperating that other Christians hold out on something so plain in Scripture, but which they reject because of a deep(er) human pride of their own than any Calvinist pride, which might mean that some Calvinists in turn look down on such people.

 

[Scott1]

Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?

On a confessional board, and in a confessional church, we confess that the Confessions (e.g. London Baptist, Westminster) are faithful summaries of the doctrine of Scripture on those points to which they speak.

It's not a matter of trying to assess where "we" (individually) might be wrong on Arminianism. "Broad evangelicalism" approaches biblical truth as the individual's assessment of theology at a given point in time. Hence, there is no clear basis for unity, since that must be based on doctrinal agreement.

Reformed theology is confessional.

It holds that the unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement. That such agreement is necessary for the peace, purity and unity of the church.

Arminian influence means a man-centered view of salvation- it reflects in theology that imagines itself to be anywhere from one to five points "Calvinist" and the rest that of the remonstrants.

When one studies the "five points" (of Calvinism) thoroughly, one finds that each point is necessarily biblically and logically dependent on the others. That understanding doesn't always come overnight, but, by faith, it will come.

What we call "Arminianism" comes in various degrees. Many who hold it do not know and have not yet heard that it is even "Arminianism," because they have not been taught. It often boils down to the serious doctrinal error of the creature imagining that he may initiate his own salvation- and from his sin nature does so. Yet the Bible teaches he has a sin nature and yet God requires perfect holiness. (cf Romans 3:23).

Those who systematically repudiate God's sovereignty, and and do so knowing the alternative, do something worse.

Those who would presume to teach God's people are held to a higher standard.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Just because the unregenerate (man-centered) Christian confesses to be Reformed (God-centered) does not mean he truly is. It is highly probable that it is simply a matter of pride why some Christians become or remain Calvinists.

 

[dudley]

No, just biblical understanding.

The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.

It is incredibly powerful when one gets the picture that salvation is not man-centered (Arminianism), but rather is God-centered (Calvinism). Freeing when one realizes that man is totally, completely, 100% dependent on God for salvation.

The more one knows, the more one is accountable for it.

That's why if someone is in an Arminian influenced communion, they find way to a communion that substantially holds the biblical doctrine. It is not acceptable to confess what is unbiblical.

As Scott said "The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.

Conversion from any other tradition to the Reformed faith is not man centered it is God centered. I can witness that it was God that inspired my move from the Roman catholic church to Protestantism and finally the Reformed faith , I am a Presbyterian because Calvinism is God centered.

It is as Scott said :“incredibly powerful when one gets the picture that salvation is not man-centered (Arminianism), but rather is God-centered (Calvinism)” It is also very Freeing when one realizes that man is totally, completely, 100% dependent on God for salvation.

I studied all the Protestant traditions and denominations and I believe Calvinism is totally God centered. Roman Catholicism was not even near God centered, The other Protestant denominations had some degree of God Centeredness but I found Calvinism totally 100% God centered. It is why I became a Presbyterian.

 

[steadfast7]

I think Dudley's conversion is certainly a good example of coming out darkness into light through the Spirit's regenerating work. But for a sincere Arminian, we are assuming (judgment of charity) that he is in Christ but needs further instruction. If we say that the Holy Spirit's work is necessary for him to see the truth of the Reformed faith, then it is not simply a matter of doing exegesis with him and demonstrating the truth intellectually, but praying for God to open his eyes, just as we would in evangelism. At the same time, they may perceive areas in our faith that are weak, and for which we need prayer to see our folly.

If all of this is true, and intellectual matters are inextricably moral issues which require the Spirit's sovereign activity, then it multiplies and complicates (in my mind) God's election, because not only does God need to choose those he wants to save, but those he wants to reveal certain truths (and there are many truths to be revealed). It seems simpler to say that the truths are graspable if one's cognitive faculties are functioning properly, but I fear that is beginning to sound Arminian.