Did Animals Die Before the Fall?

[Knoxienne]

So do we or do we not get our pets back? Shall they be resurrected as well for our pleasure or have they gone the way of the dodo, assuming dodos are not brought back.

I hope so. Our little dachshund from years back better be on the new earth for all the trouble we went through to train and discipline her!:

We also had one of those many years ago, was brown and his name was Bobi, when he would lay in the warm summer sun for hours we would say he had become a hot dog

How sweet!

Anyway,

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

I hope so. Our little dachshund from years back better be on the new earth for all the trouble we went through to train and discipline her!:

We also had one of those many years ago, was brown and his name was Bobi, when he would lay in the warm summer sun for hours we would say he had become a hot dog

How sweet!

Anyway,

And tasty!

 

[asc]

6. The concept of death was unknown to Adam, and "learned" (to his dismay) through the Fall.
7. All Biblical evidence of existence on earth after glory precludes predators and harm.

I agree with you, Pastor Greco, except #6 - I just don't see this indicated in the Bible. I'm not being argumentative, but I would like to know where we get the notion that Adam was "dismayed" because of death, and that it was foreign to him.

I think #7 is the strongest argument against animal death before the Fall. Tim has made that point as well, and it's a good one - if lions will lie down with lambs in God's renewed earth, then by implication this was part of God's perfect original creation.

If there was no death prior to Adam's fall, then wouldn't God's warning to him have been meaningless? How could Adam understand something that didn't exist yet?

Are you sure lion and lambs lying down together isn't just figurative language? Didn't Jesus in his glorified body eat with the disciples after the resurrection?

 

[Mushroom]

If Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, wouldn't the name of that tree be meaningless as well? I believe God made Adam exactly as aware as he needed to be to understand what the sin of eating of that tree would entail. One does not have to put one's hand into fire to understand that it will burn.

 

[Albatross]

I enjoyed this thread. There sure is a lot to digest. For what it is worth, I am all for discussion on unclear topics, even if they have been discussed before.

Isn't that the point of PB?

 

[fredtgreco]

I agree with you, Pastor Greco, except #6 - I just don't see this indicated in the Bible. I'm not being argumentative, but I would like to know where we get the notion that Adam was "dismayed" because of death, and that it was foreign to him.

I think #7 is the strongest argument against animal death before the Fall. Tim has made that point as well, and it's a good one - if lions will lie down with lambs in God's renewed earth, then by implication this was part of God's perfect original creation.

If there was no death prior to Adam's fall, then wouldn't God's warning to him have been meaningless? How could Adam understand something that didn't exist yet?

Are you sure lion and lambs lying down together isn't just figurative language? Didn't Jesus in his glorified body eat with the disciples after the resurrection?

Not having knowledge does not make it meaningless. Did spiritual death exist before the Fall? Was that a part of the warning?

There is a difference between a glorified body and a redeemed/glorified universe. Did sin still exist when Jesus had a glorified body? If so (as it surely did) does that mean sin will still exist in glory?

The main question which no one has attempted to answer is how death can be "good" when God pronounces it in Genesis 1:25. If God created the animals, and all that encompassed that purposeful creation was "good" and if death is a part of the created order, then death is good. How do we reconcile that?

 

[panta dokimazete]

The main question which no one has attempted to answer is how death can be "good" when God pronounces it in Genesis 1:25. If God created the animals, and all that encompassed that purposeful creation was "good" and if death is a part of the created order, then death is good. How do we reconcile that?

You nailed it, Fred.

I think death, that is, the ending of physical life, is only "not good" for humans, since only we, of the entire natural order, were intended for eternal communion with God.

 

[ChariotsofFire]

I agree with you, Pastor Greco, except #6 - I just don't see this indicated in the Bible. I'm not being argumentative, but I would like to know where we get the notion that Adam was "dismayed" because of death, and that it was foreign to him.

I think #7 is the strongest argument against animal death before the Fall. Tim has made that point as well, and it's a good one - if lions will lie down with lambs in God's renewed earth, then by implication this was part of God's perfect original creation.

If there was no death prior to Adam's fall, then wouldn't God's warning to him have been meaningless? How could Adam understand something that didn't exist yet?

Are you sure lion and lambs lying down together isn't just figurative language? Didn't Jesus in his glorified body eat with the disciples after the resurrection?

God created the world good. Therefore, if animal death occurred before the fall, then it must be good. If Adam were to gain an understanding from animal death, wouldn’t his experience be positive? Also, why does Adam’s understanding depend on whether death existed? Are you saying Adam’s brain could not comprehend anything beyond his current circumstances? Adam could understand what death meant because it’s something that could have been explained to him.

 

[tdowns]

I like it...

I'd much rather have someone who is ready to defend the faith, bring these topics up, and have people learn from them, versus people hearing about them from atheists, or their quasi christian friends. I love these topics, and, if in fact some of the alternate view are true, then how is it a bad thing to discuss them? As has been said, we want to seek truth.

These discussions just prepare people, for what's out there.

I do believe we all, animals and humans alike, could easily be sustained by photosynthesis with a miraculous flip of the switch if God wanted, not to mention God's Glory. The same way light can be without the sun due to God, why not nutrition without eating due to God?

It seems, "Food" may very well be for pleasure only, in Eden and Future glory.

I mean, so many of the beauties of creation, could have been done in a much more drab fashion, with the same practicality. I know science explains it all away due to evolution and survival of the fittest, but God could very well have designed it for His own Glory, as well as for practical use in some cases.

So, don't know where I stand, but, I find it valuable, relevant, and fun.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

The main question which no one has attempted to answer is how death can be "good" when God pronounces it in Genesis 1:25. If God created the animals, and all that encompassed that purposeful creation was "good" and if death is a part of the created order, then death is good. How do we reconcile that?

I agree, I think this is the key issue. Was animal death "good" or not? Clearly human death was not good, but animal death may be a different story.

Animals are clearly not the same as humans: God didn't breathe the breath of life into animals, didn't give them a soul, didn't walk with them in the Garden, doesn't call them to repentance, didn't send His Son to die for them. So animal death is not the same as human death. Humans die as a result of the Fall, but I'm still not sure animal death is a result of the Fall...

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

. . . I do believe we all, animals and humans alike, could easily be sustained by photosynthesis with a miraculous flip of the switch if God wanted, not to mention God's Glory. The same way light can be without the sun due to God, why not nutrition without eating due to God?

It seems, "Food" may very well be for pleasure only, in Eden and Future glory.

. . . So, don't know where I stand, but, I find it valuable, relevant, and fun.

I like your thinking.

 

[he beholds]

I don't KNOW the answer, but here's my opinion:

I think death is always related to sin. I think animals die because of sin. I think sickness is a result of sin being in the world. I think violence is a result of sin being in the world. I think animals experience death by both because they live in a world marred by sin.

 

[Confessor]

Sorry this response is a little too late (I reserved this thread in my Firefox browser because I had to study for finals earlier).

Anyway, I have two things to add:

1. When God created Adam, He gave him all sorts of knowledge. Adam was, after all, the very first man to do all sorts of things, many of which would not be possible without some prior knowledge from the Creator, e.g. walking and talking. It would certainly seem wrong or otherwise illogical for God to create a covenant with Adam if God knew that Adam did not understand the terms of it, so it is clear that Adam understood what death was prior to the Fall. I do not think it follows, however, that Adam had to have learned this empirically, for that would put a restraint on God's omnipotence. What I am saying does not necessitate that death not occur pre-Fall; it is merely a defense against a typical objection from those who believed animals did die before the Fall.

2. Most issues like the one at hand are built on awkward reasons, most of which are based on the form, "that sounds weird to me." One of these reasons is that algae-eating fish would have to become a predatory Great White. While this can be useful to bring up in some circumstances, it simply cannot be when we are dealing with an event as catastrophic and devastating as the Fall. Let us not forget that our glorious, omnipotent Creator was in control of this event, and therefore, because He can do anything, "that sounds weird to me" cannot comprise any logical barrier.

Now, the "weirdness" objection may give good cause to initially look into the appropriate Scriptures pertaining to the issue, but we have to be careful not to keep these as actual logical premises with which we are working. It looks as if that is happening in this thread somewhat.

 

[brianeschen]

Predators before the fall? Genesis 1:30.

 

[TimV]

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

Hmmm....it almost sounds like bears and lions eating hay in the earth to come.