Amazing Grace:
Thanks for the article. The message of God's sovereign grace is clear, most posts on this thread, however, keep going back to the basics. I need more nuance, beyond the simplistic "The dead cannot raise themselves.."
Well perg, as Mick Jagger said,"You cant always get what you want"....
You mentioned: There are examples of regeneration happening well before hearing the word, and there are examples of it happening together.
Please give me the examples that have regeneration happening well before the hearing of the Word.
Take Paul's journeys. The Holy Spirit directed him to every place he went. There he made converts by preaching, it is known as the "Expectation of the Nations" where the Holy Spirit preceedes/goes ahead of the messenger of God and opens the eyes of the elect for them there. And since I believe that the effectual call coincides with the regeneration of the elect in certain instances, look at the example of Christ calling James and John. Zebedee and the hired hands were with them on the boat, yet Christ said "Follow Me" and only James and John followed, this is becasue the Holy Spirit moved them only to respond.
It appears that though one thing (regeneration) "causes" another (conversion) it is improper to speak of one "preceding" another because that term always brings to mind a chronological procession instead of a logical cause and effect. I do not see any chronological procession here, but only a logical cause and effect.
It still seems to me that regeneration/conversion are a packet deal and no lapse of time occurs between the two.
I will admit I do not dissect in such a way. chronological vs logical is deaf to my ears, but thats me. Botice Paul says Faith comes by hearing the word, not regeneration.
Also, what about the coming to Christ that a sinner does BEFORE they are regenerated? Many sinners pray much for salvation before they are finally saved. It appears that there is a pre-regeneration ploughing in the soil of the soul that the Holy SPirit does before he regenerates/converts a man, such that often one's conversion appears very gradual and one cannot even tell at what point one was born again.
Exactly my point perg. But it is not a pre regeneration, it is regeneration. No sinner comes or ever will come to Christ on His terms without the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Many do come to enquire who this Man of Nazareth is. To see His miracles, to hear Him speak, but yet are hardened each time they hear the Word. Are we to assume the 5000+ He fed are all elect? I do not remember when I was born from above. So I would be a perfect example of what you said. I cannot pinpoint my "Spiritual birthday."
I disagree with your assumption that prayer brings salvation perg. Our prayers are never said to save us, our repentance is never said to save us, be careful becasue this smacks of arminianism and puts ones salvation in their efforts. Perhaps you did not mean it as such.
I am prepared to defend the existence of a class of sinners called "Seekers" or "Enquirers" that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in gradually - though they are not yet saved. It appears then, that the dead soul is quite active.
Again:
"A doctrine of total depravity that excludes the possibility of faith must also exclude the possibilities of hearing the Word, giving serious application to divine truth and praying for the Holy Spirit for conviction and regeneration. The extreme Calvinist deals with a rather lively spiritual corpse after all." [Roy L. Aldrich, "The Gift of God," Biblio-theca Sacra, July 1965, pages 248-253].
Do you believe in a doctrine of Seeking or the existence of Seekers or Enquirers, who have "awakended" souls?
You and Mr Aldrich will be kicking against the pricks here. Regeneration is not a process, you are either dead or alive, there is no in between. Honestly perg, this is the error of the Wesleyan prevenient grace, now scripture does speak of a preceedign grace of preparation of the elect, but Aldrich and yourself appear to be saying the Holy Spirit puts one in the state of having the ability to be saved, yet may not. There is no example of a dead soul following Christ for a period of time, then gradually being saved. Regeneration is instantaneous.
"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them which believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).
First, it is not because grace runs in the blood—as the Jews supposed. Holiness is not transmitted from father to son. The child of the most pious parents is by nature equally as corrupt and is as far from God as is the offspring of infidels. Second, it is not because of any natural willingness—as Arminians contend: "nor of the will of the flesh" refers to man in his natural and corrupt state. He is not regenerated by any instinct, choice, or exertion of his own; he does not by any personal endeavor contribute anything towards being born again; nor does he cooperate in the least degree with the efficient cause: instead, every inclination of his heart, every exercise of his will, is in direct opposition thereto.
Third, the new birth is not brought about by the power and influence of others. No sinner is ever born again as the result of the persuasions and endeavors of preachers or Christian workers. However pious and wise they are, and however earnestly and strenuously they exert themselves to bring others to holiness, they do in no degree produce the effect. "If all the angels and saints in Heaven and all the godly on earth should join their wills and endeavors and unitedly exert all their powers to regenerate one sinner, they could not effect it; yea, they could do nothing toward it. It is an effect infinitely beyond the reach of finite wisdom and power: 1 Corinthians 3:6, 7" (S. Hopkins).
read this by Pink:
10. The Holy Spirit Regenerating
"Regeneration consists in a new, spiritual, supernatural, vital principle, or habit of grace infused into the soul, the mind, the will and affections, by the power of the Holy Spirit, disposing and enabling them in whom it is, unto spiritual, supernatural, vital actings and spiritual obedience" (John Owen). No new faculties are created, but instead, the powers of the soul are spiritualized and made alive unto God, fitted to enjoy God and hold communion with Him. Regeneration consists in a radical change of heart, for there is implanted a new disposition as the foundation of all holy exercises; the mind being renovated, the affections elevated, and the will emancipated from the bondage of sin. The effect of this is that the one who is born again loves spiritual things as spiritual, and values spiritual blessings on account of their being purely spiritual.
